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Posts from ASW – Alternative hero leveling. Auto-translated

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#121
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Answer the main question: why is it worse to use town classes than to give other native magic schools to races?
Because without changing the native magic schools, town classes don't matter to heroes. But the opposite is true – they can be very useful (depending on the type of map).

And answer the question of how you will solve the problem mentioned above (compatibility of town classes and heroes). Will the player choose a light Inferno, knowing that the chance of Light for a demon is only 2% (this is not the hero's native school)? Reliable guarantees for acquiring a skill only start at 8% and above. Or will the starting town class not be selectable? Then, if a light Inferno appears, is it just bad luck?
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#122
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Nargott

Well, you’ve created an elf (with an upgrade!) and given him the Summoning skill. Now he has 3 native schools. Will you give the other heroes 3 schools as well?
And if you don’t give the elf the Easy Summoning skill, there won’t be much point in having a summoning city.
Don’t forget that some elves start with the Summoning skill. + a lot of elves in NHF (which, when used with this mod, will already require 2 classes). Without that mod, they are completely useless. We only have 2 races where it probably wasn’t necessary to change the native magic, and they are both elves. That is, the drop rate will only be changed for them. In the other races, since you are worried about the drop rate of a rarer school or you don’t take a starting hero with a rare school, you don’t need to take the city class.

Added 9 minutes later
Although I’m thinking that it would be good to allow cities of the same race, but with different classes, on one map. And if you also change their buildings, the value of the second city will increase.
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#123
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(when used, you will already need 2 classes for this mod)
So, the availability of city classes implies the use of NHF, and from that – that hero classes will be present. Okay.
We only have 2 races, and it's unlikely that their native magic needed to be changed, and they are all elves. That is, the drop rate will only be changed for them. In the other races, if you are worried about the drop rate of a rarer school or don't choose a starting hero with a rare school, you don't need to take a city class.
In other cases, it turns out that there is no point in taking a city class (from the point of view of guilds)?
Regarding the starting hero – there is an option for randomization (which is used quite often). And if, in addition to that, a typical hero and an atypical city appear, for which only 1-2 heroes are designed (or 10-20%), which are difficult to find in the tavern, then it's not ideal.
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#124
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Nargott

In all other cases, does it make sense to create city classes?
If the mod is only standalone, then there is no point in having hero classes.
All cities will have classes, because this will increase the unpredictability of the opponent, diversify calculated risk, and the gameplay.

Added 5 minutes later
Nargott
And if, in addition, a typical hero + an atypical city appears, for which only 1-2 heroes are suitable (or 10-20%), which are difficult to find in the tavern, then it's not ideal.
Refresh the page, because your message changes many times after mine.
Random city class? Who said it will appear automatically? Yes, it's easier to implement that way, but even so, you can find another hero for the city in the tavern.
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#126
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Here is a skill tree scheme from RPE, as an example, showing where you can draw inspiration:



The advantage of this scheme is its standard nature; that is, it is uniform for all factions. Furthermore, almost all branches have a standard structure (3+3+1). There are almost no connections between different branches (with the exception of ultimates). All unique perks are gathered in racial skills.

Added 1 minute ago
(the previous message was accidentally deleted completely, although I only deleted the duplicate post of the scheme, oh well)
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#127
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I also want to identify alternatives. For example, it's very effective for a mage to level up Empathy and Defense. But now, it won't be possible to do both at the same time, so there will be a choice. It's necessary to identify all the good options and as many alternatives as possible.

Added 11 minutes later
And yet, for some races, it would be better to simplify leveling up weak schools (in terms of skills, not the percentage of drops).
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#128
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I took a look at the updated scheme in the thread's header.

What I didn't like:

1) Logistics. The base is already very good, and now it has amazing perks on the early levels (speed aura, speed magic, sharp mind). Path of War + Pillage is an overpowered combination; they shouldn't be combined. You can endlessly run around the map with a sufficient density of neutrals (Pillage removes the combat penalty, Path of War increases the combat bonus).

2) Wisdom in Education. What's wrong with it: it breaks the Wisdom + Secret Knowledge (spell level 1-3) combination. On the other hand, a new combination is created (Wisdom + Insight), but it's still questionable.

3) Resistance in Education is neither here nor there.

4) How will Secret Knowledge work if it grants a level 3 spell but without Wisdom?

5) Enhancing Secret Advantage even more? OMG.

6) Spoils: it looked great in Luck (random perk). Why move it to Leadership and then add an analogue to Luck?

7) Return to Void in Attack? OMG. The skill is messed up. Wait. And Phantom too. I'm shocked. I refuse to comment.

8) The Attack branch is too overloaded.

Resistance in Defense. I assume this is Reflection? You already have Resistance in Education.

9) Readiness and Stalwart Defense. Why separate them? Who will take Readiness without Stalwart Defense?

10) Weakness to Darkness. In Defense???

11) Silent Hunter. +1 to Initiative??? That's already very strong in itself (basically, it's like getting +4 to Attack). And here, in addition to a decent Hunter.

Where is Retribution? Where is Counterspell?

What I liked (borrowed it for my WGE scheme):
- Seals of Light and Darkness are placed in opposite schools.
- Dark Replenishment in Sorcery (I hadn't noticed before that it has nothing to do with Darkness).
- Speed Aura in Logistics.

I also think the following are interesting:
- Moving Battle Deployment to Leadership (as in RPE).
- Secrets of Light to Sorcery (as in RPE).
- Exorcism to Chaos (there were similar intentions)
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#129
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Nargott
I took a look at the update to your build in the thread's header.
1) Logistics. It's already a very good base, and now it has some amazing perks on the early levels (speed aura, speed magic, sharp mind). Path of War + Marauding is an overpowered combination; they shouldn't be combined. You can endlessly move around the map with a sufficient density of neutral creatures (Marauding removes the combat penalty, Path of War adds a combat bonus).
I didn't update it; I just moved it from other posts.
Two strong branches: Marauding and speed are mutually exclusive.
Nargott
]2) Wisdom in Education. What's wrong with it: it disrupts the combination of Wisdom + Secret Knowledge (spell level 1-3). On the other hand, a new combination is created (Wisdom + Insight), but it's still debatable.
There is no synergy between Secret Knowledge and Wisdom, because the level 3 spell can be learned without Wisdom. But there is synergy in Wisdom + Insight.
Nargott
]3) Resistance in Education is useless.
What do you mean? Doesn't Education increase stats? It should be available to all Forest faction leaders (except for Elves; simply prohibit the bonus for Blade skills). (It will provide attack, defense, education, and magic).
Nargott
]4) How will Secret Knowledge work if it grants a level 3 spell but without Wisdom?
It will work. There is no need to know the school to learn it.
Nargott
]5) Are you also going to buff Secret Advantage? OMG.
In this case, it enhances not itself, but the entire branch.
Nargott
]6) Spoils: it looked great in Luck (random perk). Why move it to Leadership and then add an analogue to Luck?
My Spoils won't be random. Although this is just an attempt to improve the treasury, although it will also be strengthened. I'm not fixating on this.
Nargott
]7) Return to Void in Attack? OMG. The skill is ruined. Oh, wait. Phantom too. I'm shocked. I refuse to comment.
The skill is ruined? +200 damage is ruined?
Nargott
]8) The Attack branch is very overloaded.
What can you do? But now you can at least play without magic.
Nargott
]Resistance in Defense. I assume this is Reflection? You have Resistance in Education.
It should be there. Education increases stats. The perk does too.
Nargott
]9) Readiness and Stalwart Defense. Why separate them? Who will take Readiness without Stalwart Defense?
What's the connection? Moreover, Stalwart Defense is not active when Readiness is used.
10) Weakness to Darkness. In Defense???
Yes. But more importantly, the Orc will be able to learn it (you can also give it to another school, but the main criterion is that it can be learned by everyone, including the Orc. While in Darkness, the perk is unavailable to the Orc).
Nargott
]11) Silent Hunter. +1 to Initiative??? This is very strong in itself (consider it as getting +4 to Attack). And here, in addition to a decent Hunter, you have it.
A cheap ring +10% Initiative gives a similar effect, but there are still strong perks there, and an alternative is needed.
Nargott
]Where is Retribution? Where is Counterspell?
I'm still thinking about where to put Retribution. It's a double-edged concept. I'll replace Counterspell with a scripted perk, and I'll probably give the Counterspell spell with another perk.
Nargott
]- Seals of Light and Darkness are placed in opposite schools
- Dark Restoration is in Sorcery (I didn't notice before that it has nothing to do with Darkness)
- Speed Aura is in Logistics
That's great, I'm glad I could help.

All development branches are preliminary. It's a pity that a good branch for enhancing hero attacks overloads the Attack branch. Maybe you can create a new school? Although, in theory, I know how to create at least one.

Added 8 minutes ago
By the way, you can remove Tactics from the Attack branch. It doesn't increase attack in terms of its meaning.
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#130
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Why doesn't education increase stats?
It increases either random or magic stats.
It will work. It's not necessary to know the school to learn it.
How exactly will it work? Will it be added to the book and remain invisible until the hero unlocks the corresponding school?
Is a skill considered "broken" if it gives +200 damage?
It's a very niche perk (without Phantom) that you somehow included in the popular Attack skill.
It should be there. Education increases stats. The perk does too.
I don't understand. How did you get two identical perks and add them both there? Or is it through scripts?
What's the connection? Besides, "Deafness" doesn't work when using Readiness.
How doesn't it work? I haven't heard of such a blatant bug.
Yes. But more importantly, an Orc will be able to learn it.
Put it in the Darkness skill. Then, after a double debuff, Darkness will go to zero. And without the debuff, the Orc still won't be saved from Darkness.
A pathetic ring that gives +10% initiative has a similar effect, but there are still strong perks there, and an alternative is needed.
Pathetic? I almost choked.

Added 3 minutes ago
Maybe you can create a new school somehow?
That's an option. For the Barbarian, education duplicates, so you can formally move its perks to standard education, and use the duplicate as a new school through scripts. However, you'll have to work on neutralizing the bonuses from education.

Added 6 minutes ago
but there are still strong perks there, and an alternative is needed.
The problem is that Logistics has become an overpowered school with a strong non-combat base and the best combat perks, and what's worse, it starts from level 1! Only the lazy won't take it.
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#131
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Nargott
It either increases random stats or magic stats.
o_O You are comparing the general with the specific, which is part of that general. Education can increase attack, defense, education, and magic. + for magical races, there is a chance to increase defense and attack stats.
Nargott
How exactly will it work? Will it be added to the book and be invisible until the hero unlocks the required school?
It will be visible. Just as teleport can be used without light magic, so can this.
Nargott
This is a very niche perk (without Phantom), which you somehow included in the popular Attack.
And what do you think Phantom is for?
Nargott
I don't understand. How did you get two identical perks and put them in both places? Or is it through scripts?
No. I wanted to replace this perk with something better using scripts. But for now, let it remain in education, because education increases stats. It's all logical.
Nargott
Put it in Diminish Darkness. Then, after a double weakening, Darkness will go to zero. And without Diminish Darkness, it still won't save the Orc from Darkness.
I'm saying that it should be left for all races.
Nargott
Pitiful? I almost choked.
Or is Aura of Speed, Out of Unit, Speed Magic, and Marauding worse? You are again thinking in absolute terms. Everything is relative here!
Nargott
There is also such an option. For the Barbarian, education duplicates, so you can formally move its perks to standard education, and use the duplicate as a new school through scripts. True, you will have to work hard to neutralize the bonuses from education.
No, it's completely new. The developers reworked education for the Orc, which means there was a reason.
Nargott
That's the problem - Logistics has become an overpowered school with a strong non-combat base and the coolest combat perks, starting from level 1.
Perks can also be moved, for example, Death Strike and Aura of Speed, etc
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#132
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But don't you think that's what the phantom is for?
Well, isn't it a bit strange that both effects (the awesome phantom and the specific void) are completely unrelated?
I'm saying that it should be left for all races.
Why? Are there not enough ordinary magic and luck deviations, as well as artifacts? The Seals of Darkness? Eternal Light? The Tent? Mass acceleration from (your) logistics? For the sake of a millimeter of weakening Darkness, you are ruining the aesthetics. There has never been, and was never intended to be, anything like an anti-darkness in defense.
Or is the aura of speed, offensive unit, speed magic, and pillaging worse? You are again thinking in absolute terms. Everything is relative here!
Well, the aura of speed is definitely worse. But the problem is not in that. Let your perks be balanced within logistics, but logistics as a whole (as a school) has become overpowered.
No, it's completely new. The developers have reworked the Orc's education, so there was a reason.
I didn't find that reason. The skill works exactly the same. And the perks are assigned individually to each race.
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#133
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By the way, where did you see that the War path is tied to pillaging? O_O
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#134
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By the way, where did you see that the War path is linked to Marauding?
I was wrong here. I didn't notice the additional requirement for the Path. The visual layout isn't very convenient – I'm used to 3-level perks always being located below, but in your case, they ended up above the 2-level perks, which led me astray.
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#135
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Nargott
But the fact that both effects (the awesome phantom and the specific void) are completely unrelated, doesn't that bother you?
Both are part of the astral plane. The phantom is just another summoned creature.
Why? Aren't there enough ordinary magic deviations with luck and artifacts? The Seals of Darkness? Eternal Light? The Tent? Mass speed boosts from (your) Logistics? You're ruining the aesthetics for a millimeter of weakening Darkness. There has never been, and was never intended to be, anything like an anti-darkness effect in defense.
I already told you that it's not necessary to keep the defense, but no, you still want to add tons of darkness. The main thing is that it should be available to everyone.

Well, the speed aura is definitely worse. But the problem isn't that. Let's say you've balanced the perks within Logistics, but Logistics as a whole (as a school) has become overpowered.
That's a different question and had nothing to do with the previous one! By the way, I've already answered this new question.
Nargott
I didn't find that meaning. The skill works exactly the same. And the perks are set individually for each race.
How do you get rid of the random education bonus, both visually and mechanically?
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#136
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How would you eliminate the random addition of education, both visually and mechanically?
I can't say offhand. That's why I wrote that a lot of work needs to be done with this skill. That is, such an option can be considered if you really want to introduce a new skill.

Added 3 minutes ago
By the way, I've already answered this new question.
Where?

It will be possible to talk about it when a specific option is presented.
Perks can also be rearranged, for example, Death Stride and Speed Aura, etc.
, then it will be possible to talk.

But even with rearrangements, the log is very strong. It is not allowed that:
1) the synergy of scavenging and the path of war works
2) Offensive Guard, Speed Aura, Magic, and +1 to initiative work together. That is, these 4 (4! for one school) strongest perks must be spread out in 4 different corners. How - I don't know.

Added 4 minutes ago
I will argue point 2:

Previously: mass acceleration was in attack (a very weak school on its own, it only works due to perks), Speed Aura - in leadership (a mediocre school on its own, often conflicts with artifacts), and the miracle of the pursuer did not exist at all. Now you have all these goodies in one skill, and moreover, it is the strongest one on its own.
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