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In your opinion, which race is stronger in Heroes of Might and Magic V?
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Offline Alan
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#82
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2 Fireball. For the Warlock, we take spellcasting and arcane knowledge + volatile mana; from Chaos, we get +2 knowledge and +1 from the castle... and something will drop at levels, so there will be enough mana (you can also take learning and intelligence +50% mana)... boots give +50% damage, enhanced spell, and arcane luck, i.e., the base damage is increased by 0.5 (boots), then 1.5 from the base plus another 0.5 (arcane), and in the end, 2.25 from the base is doubled (arcane luck)... and in the first week of the second month, I saw 4000 something in the battle log against Weishan... Then, unlike evasion, heraldry cannot be applied en masse. And regarding all of the above... I didn't say that it would happen immediately for one hero; there are just different ways, and each race chooses its own. And right now, a very interesting Chinese development option has appeared for mages. It is based on quickly building a guild of mages, then choosing magic skills, depending on the spells already available, and early attacks... the troops form a meat shield, and the mage decides everything with high-level spells. And this rather unexpected approach is currently quite successful.
Тьма - это то, что позволяет смертным не забывать, как ярок бывает свет.
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Offline Silvanis
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#83
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Alan;51883
Why are you so fixated on the Necropolis faction?...
Because, in my opinion, they are the coolest.
Alan;51883
A Warlock will appear at the end of the first month and deal 4000+ damage with an explosion...
Well, Fireball said it all for me... I haven't seen such Warlocks at the end of the first month... except maybe in the Campaigns.

And I thought I explained everything quite clearly... apparently not:( I was talking about LARGE maps, where development takes longer; there, you don't need to build a city, and you have money.
Alan;51883
And a couple of hundred Obsidian Gargoyles under Heavenly Shield is something else...
You know, a couple of hundred Ghosts with Heavenly Shield, Dodge, Haste, Divine Might, and when the hero is level 30...
Alan;51883
Ah yes, against these skeleton archers, I once used Mass Dodge, and half the problems disappeared... And against the entire army, Mass Slow, and all problems are gone. If you can't use Mass Slow, cast Single Slow on the skeletons individually; they will move twice as slowly, and Necropolis rarely has Dispel or Haste...
Thanks for the advice, of course, but I actually know what Dodge and Slow are. And I love Light and Dark magic the most precisely because of Haste and Slow; you cast Mass Haste, then Mass Haste again - you've already done half the job, if the enemy has nothing to remove the blessing or neutralize the curse (that is, if they can't cast Slow themselves). These two skills (Light and Dark) are one of the reasons I love the Knights.
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Offline Alan
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#84
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2 Silvanis I have a vague feeling that we were writing our responses at the same time, and you didn't see my last one... )))
But I thought I explained everything quite clearly... apparently not. I was talking about LARGE maps, where development takes longer; there, you don't even need to build a town, and you have money.

As I wrote, it's not effective at all on small maps... but on large maps, if you capture it early, it will either be at the expense of your own development or later. And later, it won't give you that much, maybe just a couple of offspring, I agree, that's not so significant... it's unpleasant, but tolerable.

And regarding spells, I already wrote about it in the previous post... 8))
Тьма - это то, что позволяет смертным не забывать, как ярок бывает свет.
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Offline Silvanis
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#85
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We were actually writing at the same time:)
As for the castle, I don't know. It usually helped me; you can also arrange a kind of relay race with several heroes and transfer troops to the main city in 1-2 turns...
Well, if you capture it early, it's not necessarily at the expense of your own. I understand what you mean (you have little money because there's only one capitol, and there might not be enough mines), but it's still always better to have two castles than one. Usually, I focus on my own, and then I build up the captured one; sometimes, however, I develop them almost in parallel, and after building the Necropolis, I try to quickly build up to level 5 in the new city:)
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Offline Fireball
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#86
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2 Fireball: For the Warlock, we take spell power and arcane knowledge + volatile mana; from Chaos, we get +2 knowledge and +1 from the castle... and something will drop on levels, so there will be enough mana (you can also take learning and intelligence +50% mana)... boots +50% damage, enhanced spell, and arcane luck, i.e., the base damage is increased by 0.5 (boots), then another 1.5 from the base, plus another 0.5 (arcane), and in the end, 2.25 from the base is doubled (arcane luck)... and in the first week of the second month, I saw 4000 something in the battle log against Veishan...
2 ALAN
It was a bug, maybe before the patches? The damage from Shock is equal to 40 + 40*sp, multiplied by the corresponding coefficients. In general, writing damage taking luck into account is not entirely correct, especially arcane luck (you still have to get it), moreover, it does not apply to enhanced spells.
So, calculate how much spell power you should have.
And regarding all of the above... I didn't say that it would happen immediately for one unit... there are just different ways, and each race chooses its own.
And who argues? Each race has something nasty prepared against each other, and not just one thing
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Offline Alan
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#87
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Fireball;52078
2 ALAN
It was a bug, maybe before the patches? The shock damage is equal to 40 + 40*sp, multiplied by the corresponding coefficients. In general, writing damage taking luck into account is not entirely correct, especially magical luck (you still have to get it), moreover, it does not apply to enhanced spells.
So, calculate how much magic skill you should have.


I'm answering...
I'm not just writing all this for no reason... and I mentioned the hero by name: Veishan, he initially has luck and soldier's luck, under such conditions, of course, getting magical luck is an impossible task)).
You need to play not only as Necropolis, and if you write something, then write what you know.
Magical luck DOES work with enhanced spells...

And to end the argument, I sat down and played a map, unfortunately, in 3 castles of the Shadow League on the 5th level, there was Armageddon, so the screenshots will be with Ice Bolt.
The first screenshot is a hit with an enhanced Ice Bolt with luck and a +50% ice amulet, without the Chaos Magic skill on the EIGHTH day... the damage turned out to be 594.
The second screenshot, actually, the 5th week, the same enhanced Ice Bolt, amulet, luck... the damage is 1782...
The hero's parameters are 5-4-13-10, respectively, there is plenty of mana... skills: Chaos expert, Luck, Magic, sub-skills: soldier's luck, magical luck, secrets of chaos, master of cold, mana regeneration, secret knowledge, fluctuating mana....
I hope after this, the questions "how to deal thousands of damage with spells on the 5th week?" will disappear...

P.S. Unfortunately, I don't have Photoshop now (to rename the screenshots to .jpg), and the forum does not support uploading native screenshots from the fifth game, so I'm uploading them in an archive... oh yes, patch 1.4, I didn't want to launch the add-on, I played in the original on the Outlands...
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Тьма - это то, что позволяет смертным не забывать, как ярок бывает свет.
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Offline Fireball
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#88
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I'm answering...
I'm not just writing this for no reason... and I chose a hero named Veishan, who initially has Luck and Soldier's Luck; under these conditions, getting Spell Power is, of course, an impossible task.
You need to play not only as Necromancers, but if you're going to write something, write about what you know. Spell Power WORKS with enhanced spells...

And to end the argument, I sat down and played a map. Unfortunately, on the 5th level in 3 castles of the Shadow League, there was an Armageddon, so the screenshots will be with Ice Bolt.
The first screenshot is a hit with an enhanced Ice Bolt, with Luck and a +50% ice amulet, without the Chaos Magic skill, on the EIGHTH day... the damage was 594.
The second screenshot is, in fact, the 5th week, the same enhanced Ice Bolt, amulet, Luck... the damage is 1782...
The hero's stats are 5-4-13-10, so there's plenty of mana... skills: Chaos Expert, Luck, Spell Power. sub-skills: Soldier's Luck, Spell Power, Secrets of Chaos, Lord of Cold, Mana Regeneration, Secret Knowledge, Shifting Mana....
I hope that after this, the questions "how to deal thousands of damage with spells on the 5th week?" will disappear...

P.S. Unfortunately, I don't have Photoshop right now (to rename the screenshots to .jpg), and the forum doesn't support uploading native screenshots from the fifth game, so I'm uploading them in an archive... oh yes, patch 1.4, I didn't want to launch the add-on, I played the original on the Outlands...


Apparently, Spell Power didn't always work with enhanced spells. At least in the skill wheel 1.2, it said the opposite, and I didn't install 1.3 for a long time (only before the add-on). Thank you for the clarification.
And regarding the 1782 damage, even in that case, you are still idealizing the situation. Your base damage there is (96+12*13)*1.5*1.5*2=1134. And the rest, as I suppose, is elemental damage from 3 native castles.

So, with expert Luck, Chaos, and Spell Power 13, an amulet, and three native castles with a probability of 0.075, you will deal 1782 damage with an Ice Bolt. In this formulation, you are absolutely right.
But if we evaluate the expected value of the damage (I don't know if you are familiar with this concept, so I will explain it as a simple average over a large number of trials), it is approximately equal to 840. The difference is obvious.
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Offline Alan
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#89
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As for the 1782 damage, even in that case, you are still idealizing the situation. Your native damage there is (96+12*13)*1.5*1.5*2=1134. And the rest, as I assume, is elemental damage from 3 native Castles.

What?? I don't even have the skill for seeing elements, and I don't have any buildings constructed in the Castles (and besides, the damage from elemental chains is not added to the main damage in the logs, but appears as a separate line) (moreover, at that moment I only had one native Castle, I captured the other two later, in search of the "Explosion" spell)... there was a clear 1782, and with a bit of luck 5+, this probability is slightly higher than 0.075 (either you made a typo, or you want to say 7% chance of expert luck?? less than one hit out of ten??)... and why are you giving me mathematical formulas, it's better to just play... there are approximately 3 out of 5 hits with luck... And in general, the argument has reached a dead end, because I am telling you how it PRACTICALLY works in the game, and you are trying to force your theory on me.... the difference in approaches is really obvious...
Тьма - это то, что позволяет смертным не забывать, как ярок бывает свет.
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Offline Fireball
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#90
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What?? I don't even have the skill for seeing elements, and I haven't built any structures in the Castles (and besides, the damage from elemental chains isn't added to the main damage in the logs, but appears as a separate line) (moreover, at that point I only had one native Castle, and I captured the other two later, in search of the "Explosion" spell)... there's a clear 1782, and with a 5+ luck chance, this probability is slightly higher than 0.075 (either you made a typo, or you mean a 7% chance of Expert Luck triggering?? less than one hit out of ten??)... and why are you giving me mathematical formulas? Just play the game... there are approximately 3 out of 5 hits with luck... And the argument has reached a dead end, because I'm telling you how it PRACTICALLY works in the game, and you're trying to force your theory on me... the difference in approaches is really obvious...
I didn't make a typo. The probability is given for luck 3 and assuming that the rest of the damage is elemental (both luck and the creature's element need to trigger as fire. A 5-6th level creature who has just learned about combinatorics can handle this task). But if the damage is pure, then I don't understand how it's calculated. But it's definitely not the way it's described in the manual.
And I'm not "forcing" any of my own theories on you, because this is the official theory for calculating damage, as stated in the same manual. So either explain how these numbers are obtained, or you'll have to admit that the developers omitted something.
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Offline Alan
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#91
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And I even took the time to download a 50 MB manual... the chance of success is 10% for each +1, i.e., with a luck of 3, every third hit will be doubled; I don't know where you got 7% from....
Now, I wrote about different approaches for a reason; in the GAME, it works exactly like this...
Third, solve the problem about the 8th day and 594 damage dealt, but without Chaos magic, i.e., 60+12*SP (according to the manual), SP was around 6, the total is 132; now, the amulet is 198, the arcane is 297, and the luck is 594... draw your conclusions; there are no elemental chains in the log from the spell. Now, I calculated that 1782 damage requires 25 SP (not so unbelievable for a Warlock...), but this surprised me... I loaded the save, and saw that 25 is nowhere close (although it turned out to be higher than 13...), so I don't understand how it's considered an expert opinion... but in PRACTICE, it works exactly as in the screenshots, and the elemental chain is written separately, i.e., the damage may increase by another 10% (but the chance of this is definitely small)...

P.S. In general, we've strayed from the topic with these treatises, and the "evil" moderators might ban us 8))... so let's stop going off-topic... but I repeat, my words are based on the GAME, and yours are based on PAPER... so I'll still claim to be right; if you disagree, write to me in a private message; let's not clutter the thread anymore 8))... But it was very pleasant to argue with a reasonable person. Best regards, Alan.
Тьма - это то, что позволяет смертным не забывать, как ярок бывает свет.
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Offline Lord Vampire
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#92
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Before patch 2.1, it was Necropolis, but now it's definitely Fortress. I voted for them, even though I like Necropolis; the fact is the fact. :smile05:
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Offline Boris K
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#93
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Weren't players with hordes of crossbowmen stronger than Necropolis players before patch 2.1? If there's a farm near the castle, you can produce around 100 crossbowmen per week. Necropolis might have more skeletons, but their strength can't be compared to crossbowmen.
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Offline Lord Vampire
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#94
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Boris K;71061
Weren't humans with hordes of crossbowmen weaker than the Necromancers before patch 2.1? If there's a farm near the Castle, they can produce around 100 crossbowmen per week. Necromancers might have more skeletons, but their strength is incomparable to crossbowmen.
No, humans won't be able to amass a large number of crossbowmen to create the "hordes" you're talking about. Humans need to build many expensive buildings, and the cost of the transformation itself is huge if the amount of material being transformed is large. They also need to keep peasants, as they are needed for initial development. So, while the Life faction is doing all this, the Necromancer will simply buy skeletons and zombies at the Castle, and that's all he needs. He doesn't need to return to the Castle anymore; he goes straight to the enemy, destroying all units. And when he reaches the enemy (maximum 1 month), he will have around 1500 skeletons. Plus, he'll summon the rest of his army from the Castle. How will you defeat them? In a month, I don't think you'll be able to amass a large number of archers. But if you play for a long time, you can, of course, amass a very large number of archers, and then you might win, but who will play against you for so long? They'll come to you after a month with a huge army! :D
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Offline Archer
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#95
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Lord Vampire;71066
No, humans won't be able to amass a large number of crossbowmen to create the "hordes" you're talking about. Humans need to build many expensive structures, and the cost of the transformation itself is enormous if the amount of material being transformed is large. Plus, they need to keep peasants around, but they are needed for initial development. So, while Life is doing all this, Necropolis will just buy skeletons and zombies at the Castle, and that's all he needs. He doesn't need to return to the Castle anymore; he goes straight to the enemy, destroying all units. And when he reaches them (maximum one month), he will have about 1500 skeletons. Plus, he will summon the rest of his army from the Castle, so how will you kill them? In a month, I don't think you can gather many archers. But if you play for a long time, you can, of course, gather a very large number of archers, and then you might win, but who will play with you for so long? After a month, they will come to you with a huge army!:D
Something seems too simple, and I don't believe in such incredible luck that on the first day, after leaving the Castle and not returning there, you can gather 1500 skeletons, even if you regularly receive reinforcements from the Castle. It will still take some time, but the problem of learning new spells remains, but in principle, it can be overcome. The main problem is that with this style of play, you have no room for error; any incorrectly made decision automatically means your defeat. With all due respect to Necropolis, they cannot win the war with skeletons alone...(IMHO)
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Offline Boris K
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#96
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I build training halls and the hero hall after constructing the capitol. Therefore, I have enough money for training. I only build angel dwellings and recruit angels if I have extra money. In the second mission of the third campaign, Godric had almost as many archers as Marchel had skeletons. Godric fought unappetizing neutral creatures and heroes, while Marchel only fought appetizing neutral creatures. Both reached the maximum level.

Perhaps when playing against humans, a Knight will lose to a Necromancer. I am playing version 1.41.
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