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Posts from [ANNOUNCEMENT] Heroes 3: World Tournament - an add-on for tournament games.Auto-translated
Don't forget that the other castles get a slight buff. Dungeon, Castle, and Rampart get a small buff, and Tavern gets a significant one. Against this backdrop, and with the reduced hit points of the wolves, the imbalance of Stronghold becomes less noticeable.
And in any case, Tyras is not a problem on the level of Brogh, which needs to be addressed immediately. Therefore, it can wait for the next update.
I won't presume to generalize opinions — I'm expressing only my own approach. In my view, the problem with Tyraxor is no less than the problem with Brogh (I simply arranged not to play against him whenever possible, and I don't need a new version of WT for that). My stance is based on two components: an excessively large number of wolves (31-33) is more than enough; it kills viable strategies for Barbarian (and there are many interesting ones) aside from wolf upgrade and go-go-go. Again, I repeat: I consider goblins-wolves-wolves to be a good option.
By the way, I haven't figured out how the Rampart would get boosted, but Castle, I'm afraid, might become imbalanced.
Vic, I saw a small list of changes here. What about those changes you gave me a couple of months ago?
I wrote in the first post why the list is so short. Only the most important things are here.
Added after 5 minutes
By the way, I still haven't figured out what will boost Rampart, but I'm afraid Castle might become imbalanced.
Mephala and Kyrre will become stronger than Ivor, who is currently the standard starting hero for Rampart.
Moreover, unlike Knights, who even with a Marauder would be better replaced in the long run with something more worthwhile, Mephala will be raking in cash throughout the entire game.
I'm not going to generalize opinions, I'm expressing exclusively my own approach. In my view, the problem with Tyraxor is no less than the problem with Brogh (I simply arranged not to play against him whenever possible, and I don't need a new WT version for that). My position stems from two components: an excessively large number of Wolves (31-33) is more than enough, and it kills viable Barbarian strats (and there are many interesting ones) other than Wolf upgrade and GO-GO-GO. Again, I repeat, I consider Goblins-Wolves-Wolves a good option.
Once again - Stronghold is not just about pros, but also cons. Namely, it takes hits poorly and has little cash. If you remove the pros of breakthrough power without giving anything in return, then what would such a Stronghold be needed for? A minus stack of Wolves—that would be 25-32 Wolves—what can you break with that?
Once again, Stronghold has not only advantages but also disadvantages. Namely, it has poor defense and limited resources. If you remove the advantages related to its offensive power without offering anything in return, why would anyone need such a Stronghold? A pack of wolves will consist of 25-32 wolves; what can they break?
You probably didn't understand; I'm not talking about Jebus but about HL+U; the money problems end when you leave the starting area. Regarding offensive power, provide criteria for evaluation.
P.S. I have never started with Ivory Tower except in mirror matches and have never regretted it, but that's not the main point.
You probably didn't understand, I'm not talking about Jebus, but about XL+U. The money problems end when you leave the starting area.
I'm not talking about Jeb, but about XL+U. The balance is tailored specifically for them. What will happen to the balance on Jeb is not very important; there won't be a balance there anyway.
Money problems don't always end when you leave the starting area. More precisely, they usually don't end; after all, it's not your native territory, and there might be penalties. The main money for building up all the Castles is usually taken from your own starting area.
I'm saying that I have a lot of experience playing as Tyrus (mostly positive, I'm not hiding it), so I know the pros and cons well. And that's why I understand that the balance here is very fragile, and it can be easily ruined by an unsuccessful nerf. I've had to get out of a complete mess many times, where the generator often throws the Barbarian. I've also had to play through builds like the Bird of Fort many times. All sorts of Kreigs, Shivas, and other Barbarians would wither very quickly there.
And you, judging by "I just agreed not to play with him if possible, and I don't need a new version of WoG for this," have very little experience. You've convinced yourself that Tyrus is overpowered and are trying to somehow nerf him.
This shows a fundamental misunderstanding of the balance of Stronghold compared to other Castles – its high damage output is not a gift from fate, but a compensation for the harsh living conditions. Therefore, if you reduce the damage output, you need to give more generous starting areas. I am ready to consider such options.
P.S. I have never started with Ivor except in mirror matches and I haven't regretted it) but that's not the main point.
Well, that's your personal opinion, but the general trend is to take Ivor. And balancing is focused on the general trend.
Added 4 minutes later
killing viable strategies for the Barbarian (and there are many of them, and they are interesting) except for upgrading Wolves and Go-Go-Go.
Well, damn, but for Castle, upgrade Marks and Go-Go-Go, for Rampart, upgrade Elves and Go-Go-Go, for Tavern, upgrade Gremlochs and Go-Go-Go.
The variety of strategies for the Barbarian and Inferno in the game comes not from the abundance of these strategies, but from the overall weakness of the Castles. As chess players say, "in a bad position, any move is bad." Playing through Rukh or through the Cannon is a choice out of desperation. When a good move appeared for the Barbarian in WoG, it began to be used everywhere; this is a normal process.
Alas, watching the streams shows that after a year of WT's existence and 4 years since the invention of Tyras, far from everyone has learned to properly fight with wolves. The typical situation is that wolves are battered, there's no money for bears, and everything is generally sad. Once they learn, we'll think about it, but for now, the statistics for Strong are adequate, and it's also constantly given on random template (the SNG championship being a good example of that). And that is the main indicator.
Plus, we need to see in which direction the balance will shift from the rest of the innovations. For me, the balance benchmark is the trio of Barbarian-Conflux-Inferno (with the patch); we adjust the others to align with them from above or below.
And you, judging by "I just agreed not to play with him if possible, and I don't need a new version of VT for that," have very little such experience; you've gotten it into your head that Tyras is imba and you're trying to somehow nerf him.
Don't twist my words — that was written about Brogh, which is obvious to anyone. You wrote a bunch of drivel without deigning to answer the question about the criteria for breakthrough power.
This indicates a fundamental misunderstanding of Stronghold's balance relative to other towns — its breakthrough power is not a gift from fate, but compensation for harsh living conditions. Therefore, if you cut breakthrough power, you need to give richer respawns. I'm willing to consider such options.
I don't understand the balance when Stronghold gets everything handed to it on a silver platter, while Dungeon has to drag itself on troglodytes with 6-7 speed, and its respawn is even poorer, yet I don't complain. I have Stronghold experience — and all victories with it (that's 100%) were exclusively easy, stress-free, and I'd even say brain-dead. Your lack of arguments leads me to think there are just a few people cultivating Stronghold.
So, I repeat the question — what are the criteria for breakthrough power? The lack of a clear answer apparently indicates that you have none to begin with.
Well heck, with Castle it's mark upgrade and gogogo, with Rampart it's elf upgrade and gogogo, with Tower it's gremlin upgrade and gogogo.
Bull. Playing Castle is not just mark upgrade and THAT'S IT, and playing Rampart is ESPECIALLY not just elf upgrade, and they aren't always upgraded either.
But playing Barbarians is wolf upgrade and THAT'S IT.
So I suggest we stop arguing and sinking to lame jabs, and instead add an experimental checkbox for Tyras, for playtesting.
Don't twist my words, that was written about Brogh, which is obvious to anyone.
Sorry, misread.
You wrote a bunch of pointless drivel without bothering to answer the question about the criteria for piercing power.
The criterion for piercing power, as you yourself understand, cannot be clearly formulated. Because there are many battles and they are all different. I have no idea why you demand this; you probably just want to nitpick. This concept is intuitive, and most players understand it without any formulations.
I don't understand the balance when Strong has everything handed to him on a silver platter, while Dungeon has to drag itself along with Troglodytes at 6-7 speed, and his respawn is even poorer, and I'm not complaining. I have experience with Strong - and all victories with him (that's 100%) - were exclusively easy, effortless, and I'd even say mindless.
I don't know who you played your 100% of games with Strong against; I didn't get the feeling of "everything on a silver platter." Maybe different opponents, maybe templates, or maybe something else.
Let's take a specific sample - my games with Strong in the previous Portal Cup:
1/32, Strong vs Swamp @ 8mm6a, empty respawn, opponent had a double, he went for a restart on the encounter, messed up, then won in the second month thanks to the opponent's weakness.
1/4, first game, Strong vs Swamp @ mini-nosta, no external dwellings but had gold, bears got placed, took down a Dragon Utopia on month 2 and captured the opponent's main on day 127.
1/4, second game, Strong vs Swamp @ mini-nosta, only one Dragon Fly Hive on the respawn that was interesting, couldn't even build bears, carried the game with Vampires from a secondary hero, lost the main on day 127, then barely won due to opponent's mistakes.
1/2, second game, Strong vs Conflux @ 8mm6a, got nothing at all, struggled for 2 weeks without gold and without troops, should have lost by a landslide, but the opponent himself made a blunder.
Final, second game, Strong vs Conflux @ 6lm10a, little gold but had external dwellings and Griffin Conservatories, won easily.
Final, third game, Strong vs Conflux @ 6lm10a, complete garbage with no gold, no external dwellings, and lots of blocks. Spent the entire first week considering surrender, then pulled through thanks to a double and lucky Dragon Utopias.
In total, out of 6 games, 2 relatively easy wins and 4 clawing my way out of the gutter and catching opponents on their mistakes.
So formally 6-0, but realistically it was on the verge of collapse; in most games the opponents had a better position. I'd hesitate to talk about any imbalance of Strong here; it's more about my personal luck. Objectively, it should have been something like 3-3. And this is with Tyras - a specialist in crawling out of the gutter. Nerf him - and Strong will quickly slide into the basement of the faction rating.
That's why I'm saying - if you want to nerf piercing power, you need to compensate with gold.
Your reaction to the question about offensive power was strange. Here's a specific point: you can take 38 wolves, but you can't take 32 of something else.
Regarding the cup, I hope it was played with full rules? Then I'd like to see the save files from the HL games; I don't want to consider nostalgia here.
By the way, in the CIS championship, the only somewhat unexpected result was Alex losing with Stronghold, but I think there was some kind of bug with Napalm + red color; I'll look at it more closely later.
As for my opponents, I'm not so much surprised by the win percentage as by how easily they were defeated, compared to games with other factions.
You had a strange reaction to the question about raw power. Here's a specific example: you can take 38 wolves, but you can't take 32.
There's a lot of that. For example, it's risky to enter the maxigame with 32 wolves, but 38 is easy.
In general, I try to restart if I have 30-32 wolves and no support units, but 36-39 is usually fine. Also, sometimes I have to sacrifice individual wolves, which is critical when there are few of them.
Regarding the cup, I hope it was played with full rules? Then I'd like to see the save files from the HL games; I don't want to consider mininostalgia here.
It varied. We played with a Medium in the final and with an Azazel in the 1/32 round, with experience, and with the others without. I need to look for the save files; I try to back them up.
Generally, I try to restart if there are 30-32 wolves and no support units, but 36-39 is okay. Also, sometimes I have to sacrifice individual wolves, which is critical when there are few of them.
You don't restart because it's impossible to play with 32 wolves, but because you might get more next time. If it's so difficult for a Barbarian to fight Tyraxor, what about the other heroes? Immediately reducing the number of wolves for Tyraxor might be too much, but making it 4-6 instead of 5-7 is just right. And for the others, add goblins and 1 orc.
By the way, won't the tent be a bit too heavy? We moved away from level 4 magic specialists with the right spells in their spellbooks – but here, resurrection is available almost immediately, and it's an expert-level resurrection, judging by what's written in the first post...
By the way, won't the tent be a bit too much? We moved away from level 4 magic specialists with the right spells in their spellbooks, but here we have almost immediate resurrection, and even an expert one – judging by what is written in the first post...
Practice will show whether it's too much or not. However, I don't think this will lead to starting with a mage, but as a useful secondary unit – why not?
Among the magic specialists, only Solmyr is somewhat useful, and that's because Taver doesn't have any decent warriors. And all sorts of Dimmer-Aislin-Jedit are weaker than their corresponding fighters, even with allowed spells.
Wicc
