Discussion about the Britvachka-Valenok party. — Tournament Committee

BA/IEHOK

7/5/2010 2:20 PM UTC

Auto-translated

I read all the previous posts carefully and would like to add a few words. 1. Thank you to everyone who supported me, both during and after the game. Whether you watched the stream or play with us in the group, your opinion is still more interesting and important to me. 2. My weak chain-building skills and overall low level are no secret to anyone, but I still appreciate you pointing it out. 3. The idea to submit the save files to the Arbitration Committee (AK) came about spontaneously. I was satisfied with the opinions of respected people who reviewed the saves: Wic, Stinger, Loi, Kash, Dubrovin. Their words were enough for me to draw certain conclusions. 4. The first pause in the game was initiated by Andrey, on day 145, I think. It was around 8 am my time, but I was determined to finish the game without any pauses. It probably would have worked out that way if it weren't for one interesting situation: the game was being streamed from day one, and we were discussing some game moments with Vernik and Deriel in parallel (I don't think there's anything wrong with that, since the conversation only took place during the opponent's turn). It turned out that instead of sending a message to Vernik via ICQ, I sent a message to Andrey saying that "there are five hidden angels, and in the dungeon, in the portal, they still gave me gremlins." And although some time passed in real time after that message, about 2 days passed in the game. 5. In any case, throwing mud at each other in this situation is inappropriate, and if there was an option in the poll "I don't care anyway," I would probably have voted that way. One such fact is certainly not a reason for any drastic measures; let everyone draw their own conclusions. As for our game, I probably lost it anyway, and I have no complaints about the result. I believe that the AK should make decisions on such controversial situations through an anonymous vote (they were chosen for a reason), otherwise, waves of mutual insults and mudslinging will arise, and any vote will take the form of a clash between two groups, which are divided according to the principle: "I know him - I don't know him; we are in the clan - we are not; I know him personally - I don't," etc. (this was also quite well demonstrated by the "Alex case").

693078206

Piterius

7/5/2010 2:21 PM UTC

Auto-translated

Oelm

Such evidence is a death sentence for the very idea of the Anti-Cheat system, and for the Anti-Cheat system itself. It seems Vic was not as biased as I thought. Moreover, could this be a settling of personal scores by some members of the Anti-Cheat system? We await the named votes of the highly respected Anti-Cheat system.

Dear OELM, temper your enthusiasm. Don't judge someone else's virtual bias; try to keep your own under control. If the Anti-Cheat system is not needed, time and the course of events will show it, but for now, keep your heated opinions to yourself. It is impossible to please every such hothead; there will always be complaints and dissatisfaction based on their own subjective opinion. If you can't see beyond your own nose, at least don't try to convince everyone else of it. This poll has several goals, but not everyone sees them. 1. Finding the truth - is it cheating or not? 2. Identifying similar cases, other controversial situations involving Andrey (I repeat, there are grounds for this). 3. Preventing such cases. Moreover, the third point is no less important, if not more so. Your votes are both opinions and witnesses at the same time. The result of this vote, and indeed its progress, will be very important in making decisions on other controversial situations. Up to the point of "should it even be held at all, because there will always be troublemakers who will turn the process into a mess." Did I explain it clearly enough?

Хаос - это порядок, которым сложнее управлять.

icq: 407907277
skype: piterius_i

Avern

7/5/2010 2:27 PM UTC

Auto-translated

On turn 147, the blue player has three possible actions: 1. Go through the pink command post into the dungeon. 2. Go to the enemy and exchange troops. 3. Go into the enemy's dungeon, hoping to find some valuable resources. All three options can be combined into one: go into the enemy's dungeon -> collect whatever you find -> get defeated/buy your way out of the enemy (you have money and explosives) -> buy Gurney with troops in the tavern and go to the pink command post. In my opinion, this is a logical strategy.

Redwhait

7/5/2010 2:46 PM UTC

Auto-translated

Please upload all save files after the long break. And everything seems logical in the save file.

Catch

7/5/2010 2:57 PM UTC

Auto-translated

Gomunguls

I haven't heard anything dumber....

I immediately stated my newbie level. But none of the stars of the Heroes world, who stood up with their "oracles" to defend Britvochka, offered any clear arguments, or explained to the newbie why, after a break of 145, I emphasize 145, Gurney headed to the right. The move on turn 147 generally fits into the concept of his movement from the previous day. But the very purposeful movement in that direction after a break in the game is unclear to me. I have explained the logic I followed many times. No one has ever answered me properly, except for stating the fact of my stupidity, offline thinking, and other phrases that, due to the above, do not explain anything to me.
That is why I am asking for the Nth time to upload saves for at least the period 141-144, or simply explain in words to the luminaries of the Heroes world why Gurney went exactly there.

Школа начального мастерства по Вторым Героям.

http://offtop.ru/heroes2school/

In reply to Catch

Gomunguls

7/5/2010 3:28 PM UTC

Auto-translated

Catch

I stated my noob level right from the start. But not a single star of the Heroes world, who stood their ground defending Britvochka, provided any clear arguments or explained to a noob why Gurnie headed right after turn 145, I emphasize 145. The move on 147 generally fits into the concept of his movement from the previous day. But the purposeful movement in that direction after the break in the game is unclear to me. I have explained the logic I followed more than once. No one has ever given me a proper answer, other than stating the fact of my stupidity, "offline" thinking, and other phrases which, apparently due to the aforementioned reasons, explain nothing to me.
That is why for the N-th time I am asking to post the saves at least for the period 141-144, or simply have the luminaries of Heroic thought explain in words why Gurnie went exactly there.

I've already written my thoughts regarding his moves... I don't see anything else there...

Added after 9 minutes

readme

THIS LOOKS LIKE A COMPLETELY OBVIOUS DISHONEST MOVE, because how could he know that there was such a Dragon Utopia with such gear? And that it was even a Dragon Utopia at all?

Why must the moves be exclusively precise?? I myself have traveled into unknown lands a hundred times and stumbled upon treats... so what now??
I'm not as interested in why he went there, but rather that someone explains to me where he would have gone after jumping via DD.

Added after 13 minutes

numOne

Essentially, the subject has been under review by the AC for quite some time, but a unanimous opinion could not be reached; therefore, the topic was brought out for open discussion. We specifically decided not to spell it out or break it down so that the situation wouldn't seem biased, and players themselves could make a decision by analyzing the saves turn by turn. Awarding a ban based on one game with a not-so-obvious violation is wrong, but we cannot sweep the matter under the rug either. Therefore, a HUGE REQUEST: DO NOT START A FLAME WAR (we're good at that, life has already shown), and speak only to the point. If there are controversial moments you noticed in previous games with Britvochka - attach the saves during the discussion - we will analyze them. And please, before voting - think carefully and weigh everything; this is a question of a ban.

You are making a BIG mistake..(((...I played with Andrey and there was no suspicion of cheating...it turned out to be a great game...there were victories and losses..everything was fair!!!!!
I honestly don't understand... how can some noobs give advice here on how a player of his level should play??
Alex left, Forest followed him... where are the top players? And who is there to play with?? With Catch or with readme who has been on the forum for 2 months and already speaks as if he's played a bunch of games here....
: (

Удача любит подготовленных!!!

Стримы и обучение тут:
https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCWlnXU5R5RLCMuWzIpBc65Q

Hermit

7/5/2010 3:46 PM UTC

Auto-translated

I don't know

Added 3 minutes later
Seven angel lairs... :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: :eek: No words...

Всё не так плохо как Вы думаете. Всё намного хуже!

In reply to Gomunguls

Piterius

7/5/2010 3:49 PM UTC

Auto-translated

Gomunguls

Alex left, and so did Forrest... where are the top players? And who is left to play with? With Catch or with Readme, who has only been on the forum for 2 months but already talks as if he has played a ton of games here....
: (

What kind of tragedy is this? Who is stopping you from playing with them? As far as I know, Alex plays constantly. Forrest has quit, not just the forum, but the game altogether, so nothing will help here.
Readme is definitely overdoing it. But he is hurting himself the most. Each of us paints our own portrait here with our posts! And a situation like this encourages us to learn more about each other.

Хаос - это порядок, которым сложнее управлять.

icq: 407907277
skype: piterius_i

bRitvo4kA

7/5/2010 4:08 PM UTC

Auto-translated

Our forum has the most popular topic about cheating, so I will post pictures of Valenok's gameplay on turn 227. I won't comment yet, to keep things interesting. The save files are posted in my previous post.

Attachments 7

7 files attached • Total size: 763.7 KB

В дикім полі

In reply to Gomunguls

Oelm

7/5/2010 4:12 PM UTC

Auto-translated

I personally see a confusion of concepts: a personal attitude towards a player and specific questionable actions in the game. Honestly, mixing these into one pile looks somewhat strange. A long time ago, I watched Stinger's game saves. I admit that I didn't understand many of his moves, and there were also instances of finding the right utopia and taking conservatories without checking. I attributed this either to his amazing intuition or to something else. But! Over time, I began to notice that many moves looked quite justified, even though at first glance they seemed strange. And now I can say that many of my past doubts now only cause a smile. I am sure! If you take many games of the strongest players, then half of those present here will also see map hacks and cheats. Here, for example, the question is raised: why go to 145 in the swamp? But the fact that there is an open utopia there is somehow not noticed. What we have is that, although it is acknowledged that there are no controversial moments in the game, we are collecting rumors, gossip, and negativity. Pyotr, then the topic should have been named that way from the beginning - intrigues, investigations. And if you wanted, you could simply have resolved the issue of trust in Andrey privately. But as it is, it's a mockery. Or does AK want to stage a show trial and then hold it regularly?

For me, the opinion of authoritative people who looked at the saves was enough: Wic, Stinger, Loi, Kash, Dubrovin. Their words were enough for me to draw certain conclusions.

And this, I am sure, is a lie from Valentek. I don't believe that Wic could have considered this save suspicious. I emphasize, specifically these saves, and not his personal attitude towards Andrey as a player. If I am wrong, I will publicly apologize on the forum, and in addition, I will not open my mouth again in this topic (I'm serious). Ah, and here's another thing, Alex used to have a common expression: "hyena behavior," which he used appropriately and inappropriately. So, gentlemen, everything you have arranged here is "pure hyena behavior."

Земля нуля.
Все в ней нулево и кукольно.

Дубровин Павел

7/5/2010 4:15 PM UTC

Auto-translated

Saves from the Britvachka-Valenok 127-144 match.

Attachments 1

1 file attached • Total size: 2.5 MB

zip

Бритвочка-Валенок 127-144

2.5 MB 111

С истиной где-то рядом...

Лето 2010.

Дубровин Павел

7/5/2010 4:21 PM UTC

Auto-translated

Saves from Britvachka-Valenok's game: 111-126

Attachments 1

1 file attached • Total size: 2.9 MB

zip

Бритвочка-Валенок 111-126

2.9 MB 114

С истиной где-то рядом...

Лето 2010.

In reply to Дубровин Павел

Дубровин Павел

7/5/2010 4:26 PM UTC

Auto-translated

Britvachka-Valenok’s party save: 214 turns remaining.

Attachments 1

1 file attached • Total size: 3.5 MB

zip

Бритвочка-Валенок 214-и дальше

3.5 MB 87

С истиной где-то рядом...

Лето 2010.

In reply to Catch

wowa

7/5/2010 4:35 PM UTC

Auto-translated

Catch

....why after the break at 145, I emphasize 145, Gurni headed rightI am answering based on the incomplete info provided to me:

1. To the right was the only unclaimed Dragon Utopia scouted at that moment!
yes - there are treasure zones, but Gurni has expert pathfinding; while he spends a day running through the swamp, a couple of noobs could easily scout a treasure zone, build a chain and pull Gurni there

2. The blues have Dimension Door and fly, the reds don't have either throughout the game -- so the argument to "shackle" also works quite well -- risky of course, but if anything happens you can buy your way out ;) another question is -- is it worth burning a Dimension Door just to kill a few noobs? nevertheless, the blues could have observed power in the tavern not with Nelka, so there were chances to catch ГГ or the caravan with shackles during a sudden jump :) though by revealing Dimension Door, the blues exhausted those chances -- and just rushed somewhere))

now the twist: Brissa had expert air vision! with maphack, considering this, Gurni was unlikely to put himself in danger... so c'est la vie

I repeat -- the info is incomplete.... but for now that's it))))
actually there are plenty of options -- therefore when working with incomplete info, the most logical solutions emerge, but any nuance can overturn them, but I repeat: based on the provided info aka saves, the fact of maphack is as obvious as it is in most perfectly legal games

In reply to Oelm

Catch

7/5/2010 4:39 PM UTC

Auto-translated

Oelm

For example, here people are asking why go to the swamp on day 145? But the fact that there's an open Dragon Utopia standing there is apparently not noticed.

The Dragon Utopia is exactly what is noticed. But a Dragon Utopia can be taken with a scout hero like Crag Hack, so as not to distract your main hero.
Regarding various cheats and maphacks as well. I just want to understand what reasons one could have to go there.
For instance, one of my recent games. Panic. Three passes. A horde of magi along the road, a horde of earth elementals off-road, and a teleport along the road behind a stack of vampires. I go through the earth elementals, run into the opponent and GG. The opponent later watches the saves and asks, why didn't you go through the vampires? They are closer, and there are goodies behind them. And I have nothing to say in response, I just went there and that's it. But I'm a noob, it's hard to find deep meaning in my gameplay actions. Here, a super-player is playing. I just want to understand the logic. I'll say more, if the game hadn't been postponed, I would have been 99% sure there was no cheating. But here the game is being postponed, and after that a third eye is opened...
I just want to understand, primarily for myself, what this was — genius that I'm not meant to comprehend, or still cheating.

Школа начального мастерства по Вторым Героям.

http://offtop.ru/heroes2school/