Necromancers in Heroes of Might and Magic VI. — Necropolis

Саня Изи

16 years ago

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Based on your comments, it seems you don't fully understand how difficult it is for Necropolis to defeat powerful factions with anti-magic abilities, such as Dwarves or Haven. It's not just about mind control; if that were the only factor, it wouldn't be so challenging. The problem lies in the overall use of magic. Berserk, Blind, or even just Plague spells can significantly impact the outcome. So, Froska, you should first play against worthy opponents before drawing conclusions.

In reply to Саня Изи

Dyrman

16 years ago

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Lordesat

Judging by your comments, it seems you don't quite understand how difficult it is for the Necromancers to defeat powerful factions that have anti-magic abilities, such as Dwarves or Haven. It's not just about mind control; it's about all magic in general. I'm talking about Berserk, Blind, or at least Plague. So, Froska, you need to play against worthy opponents first, and then draw conclusions.

I only drew a conclusion about you ;)
Reading your comments, it seems like you think the Necromancers were unfairly weakened. And that Necromancers should be the strongest and most powerful... the conclusion is clear.
Consider this: some factions are weaker than Necromancers, and some are stronger. And just because it's difficult to play against a particular opponent doesn't mean that Necromancers are weak. Just look at the Princes. The second-tier Necromancer units were already buffed; the only thing I'd like to add is: why didn't they buff the old ones as well? I'd like to see even two vertical upgrade levels in the sixth game, and each with a horizontal one. So that the second vertical upgrade of a first-level creature would be stronger than the upgraded second-level creature!
In my opinion, that would be much more interesting

Саня Изи

16 years ago

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There's no need to complicate the game with unnecessary upgrades. However, there could actually be more creatures. But that's not the point. First of all, in Heroes 3, the Undead were arguably the strongest race in the late game. At the same time, the other dark factions (Demons and Warlock) also looked quite decent. In Heroes 5, the Undead can't be called weak, but they're not the strongest either, especially considering that other dark factions (Demons, Warlock, and Orcs) clearly suffer in comparison to Elves, Humans, Dwarves, and the Academy. This is clearly an imbalance, and one of the reasons for this is the presence of the Antimagic spell. Also, there's the Battle Fury rune, which I can't seem to accept, as well as heroes like Wingael and Inga, and it's too easy to create a large group of Knights for Humans. All of this shifts the balance in favor of the light factions, which is why people prefer to play as them. But I bought the Heroes games to enjoy some dark strategies, so I haven't been very interested in playing Heroes 5 lately. I think it would be fair if the Undead were the strongest – then the balance would be somewhat equalized.

Malder

16 years ago

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Orcs suffer in the late game, huh? ))) LOL))))))))) If you're complaining so much about anti-magic, maybe you should just strengthen your troops with shields, phoenixes, elementals, or block them with a wall. Or is that not an option?)) If you let someone get 80 paladins, of course, you're going to lose. The question is, what sane person would let that happen? xDD Unless you're playing on an incredibly large map in different corners, but that's a personal choice, as is where you play. It's been known for a long time that you shouldn't let humans develop for too long.)) Although, yes... the developers are so stupid and don't understand the game, its mechanics, etc., that they created an obvious imbalance, and it's very difficult to win with the dark races, of course=))))) And the fact that you're bragging about your super computer with 8GB of RAM and a 4-core processor – shove it deeper and be happy)) Not everyone has such a machine (I have a 1.6 GHz processor and 512MB of RAM, for example) (well, not everyone has rich parents xDDD))) So, they have to work hard themselves. You need to learn to think about others and not just about yourself, "the unrivaled one." Egocentrism is not welcome. Yes, yes, that's going to work... you have your own business and you earn enough... of course, of course xDD No one is arguing))))))) The developers take this into account (and all the popular games: WoW, Cabal, etc.). They try not to set the bar too high so that as many people as possible can play, not just "chosen elites." Do you want the Necromancers to be the strongest? I want Humans to be the strongest, and so what? What's wrong with that? It would be fair. Or not, I want the neutrals to be the strongest xDD Of course, you won't be able to "enjoy" it because all the races have been balanced, and what was in Heroes 3 is gone. Cheers.

valery

16 years ago

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The comments by Lordesat regarding antimagic and Necropolis in general were quite amusing. Apparently, I understand something about duels.
In general, Necropolis is considered a difficult race for beginners because it often requires rushing (and this isn't like Orcs where you just grab machines and go), also, there isn't such a favorite tactic for Necropolis as Lordesat likes: sitting for 3-4 months and only then fighting (or rather, here they simply lose to Humans, Dwarves, and often Mages).
By the way, despite all the assurances, there is balance in the 5th game. The difference is simply that each race has its own strategies, and some are oriented towards the late game, while others are oriented towards rushing.
P.S. And let's not forget about tactics. Against an inexperienced player, you can win battles with armies several times smaller.

In reply to Malder

Саня Изи

16 years ago

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Malder

Do Orcs suffer in the late game? ))) lol)))))))))
If you're complaining so much about anti-magic, maybe you should just strengthen your troops with shields, Phoenixes, elementals, or block them with a wall. Or is that not an option?))
If you let someone get 80 Paladins, of course, you're going to lose.

Dark magic is stronger and should be stronger than summoning magic. If there's anti-magic, the whole point of dark magic disappears. Or there should be a way (other than messengers and counterspells) to deal with anti-magic. For example, if it could be removed by dispelling, the issue would be resolved.

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Malder

And the fact that you're bragging about your super computer with 8GB of RAM and a 4-core processor – shove it deeper and be happy))

Thanks, buddy:D :D :D

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Malder

It's been known for a long time that Humans shouldn't be allowed to develop for too long.

:smile34: If you're playing on a map like mine, with one-way teleportation, they won't ask how long they can develop; they'll develop as much as they want, and in the process, they'll learn not only anti-magic but also Divine Vengeance, Vampirism, and gather 300 Paladins, or even 500. No, I've lost even against that with 2 Necropolis Castles. The problem is that playing as Necropolis is too difficult, and playing as Humans is too easy.:mad: :mad:

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valery

By the way, despite all the assurances, there is balance in the 5th game. The only difference is that each race has its own strategies, and some are geared towards the late game, while others are geared towards rushing.

This "orientation," as you put it, doesn't negate the imbalance because everyone should be equal, both in the late game and in rushing. But it turns out that on some maps, it's advantageous to play one race, and on others, another. This only spoils the interest in the game.

In reply to Саня Изи

valery

16 years ago

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Lordesat

Dark magic is stronger and should be stronger than summoning magic.

Is it because you want it to be, or are there more objective reasons?

Lordesat

Everyone should be equal, both in the late game and in the early rush.

That's funny. The balance lies in the fact that each race has its pros and cons. Necropolis has the advantage of being able to break through enemy lines due to their infinite mana (if you don't believe me, I can post some revealing replays).
If you're not interested in playing, I can suggest trying a different race. Also, there used to be debates about balance, which led to the creation of Tournament Edition; I suggest you try it (there, the balance has been refined by dozens of the best players and many tournaments). However, in that version, Necropolis is more nerfed than buffed.

In reply to valery

Саня Изи

16 years ago

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valery

because that's what you want, or are there more objective reasons?
QUOTE]
Because dark magic can be neutralized by light magic, and the darkness has practically nothing against the light

Added after 51 seconds
valeryWell, if you're not interested in playing, I can suggest trying a different faction. In general, there used to be debates about the balance, which led to the creation of the Tournament Edition; I suggest you try it (there, the balance has been refined by dozens of the best players and many tournaments). But there, the Necropolis is more nerfed than buffed.

Please provide more details, or better yet, a link.

In reply to Саня Изи

valery

16 years ago

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Lordesat

or better yet, a link

You're welcome.
http://heroesleague.ru/public/homm5/TE/TE_4.01.rar

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Саня Изи

16 years ago

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Thanks, but after reading about this mod, I was a little horrified. It's better to just play the original. That's what I think. Valery, are you trying to say with all this that Necropolis shouldn't be buffed, but rather nerfed, which I strongly disagree with.

In reply to Саня Изи

valery

16 years ago

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Lordesat

Thanks, but after reading about this mod, I was a little horrified. It's better to just play the original.

I was horrified the first time I read about it too. Then I tried it, and I liked it. Most of the strongest players are playing on this mod now. Everyone is satisfied.

Lordesat

I think, Valery, you're trying to say that Necropolis shouldn't be buffed, but rather nerfed, which I strongly disagree with.

I don't think anyone should be buffed or nerfed. All races are strong in their own way.
Regarding the advantages of certain races on certain maps, I can say that standard maps have balance issues. But there are templates for the map generator, and there are also great maps created in the editor.
And the idea that everything should be equal in both the early and late game would lead to 8 identical races with identical heroes. Is that more interesting than the current Heroes?

In reply to Саня Изи

Mish-gan

16 years ago

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I still think that there is an imbalance in the game, especially when it comes to the early and late game, although, when playing online with other strong players and watching how seasoned pro and amateur players perform in tournaments, I am sometimes surprised by how much depends on the upgrade strategy and the battle itself. The map on which the game takes place is also important. It happens that in the late game, the Warlock defeats the Necromancer, although this happens very rarely, but it still proves that any race can oppose any other. Undoubtedly, each race has its own advantages and disadvantages. It is simply necessary to approach the upgrade process individually, depending on the opponent, and also to anticipate what he will upgrade! The way the final battle is conducted is also important, the placement of troops, understanding your own and the enemy's initiative – the sequence of turns, the sequence of spells by the hero or countermeasures, etc.! CONCLUSION: "with smart and correct play, even the Warlock is the king of all races in the late game!". Now, regarding "Antimagic". I 100% agree with those who say that it is too strong. I'll explain, we could just as easily make "Subjugation" and "Berserk" (in Dark Magic) unremovable, but no, these spells are easily removed by "Dispel" or "Vampirism", tell me, where is the logic and balance? Now, to the essence of the topic. Like all fans of the series, I am looking forward to the sixth installment! As for the Necromancers in the new game, I would definitely like to see new units and special abilities for the undead, I would really like them to increase the unit upgrade tree. I would definitely like to see a 7th-level unit that is stronger than those wretched bone dragons, I would like new abilities and, accordingly, new ways to destroy the enemy!

valery

16 years ago

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In my opinion, the imbalance is more due to specific heroes rather than the race itself (certain heroes dominate on small maps), and also to a large extent, it's down to random chance. Regarding the late game and rushing, I'll reiterate that on most maps, it's not necessary to wait for months, but rather to utilize your strengths. Waiting for a Knight to level up 100 Paladins is already a passive approach.
And tactics really do matter. With the right strategy, you can defeat opponents with significantly superior forces. By the way, I'd like to suggest trying out duels. In a dozen games against a strong opponent, you can learn a lot about tactics.
As for the sixth installment, honestly, I'm not too concerned about how characters look. What's more important to me is balance, and it would be nice to have more alternative upgrades for creatures and to add around 20 skills (instead of 12). All this would add variety to the possible tactics.

Саня Изи

16 years ago

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By the way, here is another important thing. Balance is a useful thing, of course, but I'd like the AI to be stronger. So that it doesn't just blindly use direct attacks on units, but casts spells, uses runes, preparation (or whatever will be there). And so that it doesn't happen where Dragon Utopia is taken with 2 skeletons.

BATTLEWIZARD

15 years ago

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I want a mass raise dead ability + the ability to raise enemy creatures and transform them into undead of the corresponding level. You could also add... a skill that requires all 5 branches) For example, a mass berserk xDDDDDD. Well, in general, I would be happy^^) Or not! Better to have the ability to control an enemy hero xDDD.

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