SOD vs TE — Tournament History

Alex_R

16 years ago

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to Alessandro
The football example is completely irrelevant
where is the criterion for distinguishing SoD from TE?
what does "which one is better to watch" have to do with this?

In reply to Alex_R

Samurai

16 years ago

Resume:

WT or TE or TE-light is really better than SOD+lighter, and it is a fact!
:cool:

In reply to Alex_R

Wicc

16 years ago

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Alex_R

Seriously, purely arithmetically:
Example 1 (worst case for SoD and best case for TE-Light)
Let's say a game lasts 24 days (up to 145... almost a month). We perform 4 actions per turn for SoD, and one such action takes a maximum of 20 seconds, as described by Wicc.
As a result, we spend about 30 minutes clicking with the army in one game.
For TE-Light, in the best case, we would lose 2 seconds per action, and therefore lose an extra 3-4 minutes in the entire game... 10 times less!!!
Example 2 (typical situation)
The game lasts 16 days (up to 133), we perform 3 actions per turn, spending 5 times more time on one action (15 seconds for SoD, 3 seconds for TE-Light).
In total, 8-9 minutes are wasted in such a game just because we are playing on SoD.
If we take into account that such a game usually lasts 4-6 hours (some might even say 3 hours, but there are people who play for 7-8 hours).
What are these 10 minutes? And how much time is spent on preliminary agreements, on the draft or choosing castles/heroes, on connecting and generating, on crashes, etc. In the end, I think everyone understands what the main part of the turn limit goes to, and the same clicking process does not prevent you from thinking and calculating options in your head at the same time.
P.S. The calculation can be seen in the screenshot.

I would show your calculations to the engineers of Formula 1. Or to running coaches. Or at least to players in Q3, Starcraft, etc. They would laugh, even without understanding anything about Heroes.

Because competitive disciplines are structured in such a way that a small difference at the beginning tends to turn into a huge difference at the end.

It is foolish to compare the time spent lying on the couch in front of the TV and the time spent in a time crunch; these are completely different times. An extra 30-60 seconds per turn is a huge number.

In reply to Wicc

asm

16 years ago

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I would summarize the versions as follows:

SOD:
"+":
- No hassle with installation
- The version is simple, familiar, and easy to understand
- Easy to start and get into
- The rules are almost uniform
"-":
- A huge number of rules – we prohibit this, this is allowed, but only if conditions 1-2-3 are met; you have to keep everything in mind, and God forbid you break a rule
- Sluggish gameplay: already described quick keys, unnecessary messages about receiving resources
- Often leads to very unbalanced scenarios requiring more frequent restarts
- A lot of SOD-specific bugs
- For more advanced players, it requires tweaking and a lot of crazy programs. At a minimum, you need to speed up the animation, upload rmg files, and for a more or less comfortable game, you need to download, install, and run at least 3 programs in each game: quick transfer, a Chinese program with numbers, and an autosave
- Game development is only possible through rules.

In total: the version is ideal for beginners, for whom the described "-" are not very significant, because they become significant only with gaming experience, but the pluses outweigh them.

TE Lite:
"+":
- Many rules are built into the version
- Quick keys and overall game acceleration
- Balancing options – building level 2 and others
- There is an opportunity to develop the version
- Many SOD bugs have been fixed
"-":
- Very difficult to install, even more so than TE Full
- There are some TE and Lite bugs

In total: the version is ideal for experienced, strong, but conservative players who want to comfortably play their familiar and favorite game with SOD gameplay.

TE Full:
"+":
- Everything from TE Lite
- More rules are built into the game
- Greater variability in the game and rules
- Active game development
"-":
- Difficult to install
- Many new features and gameplay changes that need to be learned
- A lot of confusion with scripts
- Due to the great variability of the game, there are a lot of text files, scripts, and rules that you have to coordinate with your opponent and not forget what you might have missed
- New features cause mixed reactions: some say it's a great thing, while others say it's completely unnecessary
- There is no way to configure the gameplay to be identical to SOD

In total: the version is suitable for people who want to develop and are looking for new things in the game, who are not afraid of innovations that change the balance and gameplay.

P.S. I note that I did not mention anywhere that one version is worse or better in terms of balance and strategy.

In reply to Alex_R

Alessandro

16 years ago

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Alex_R

to Alessandro
The football example is completely irrelevant
where is the criterion for distinguishing SoD from TE?
what does "which one is better to watch" have to do with this?

The football example shows that in TE-lite/TE, battles need to be completed faster than in SoD, because there, due to the chess clocks, time in battles is limited!

Captain

16 years ago

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I started this thread, to be honest, to solve my own problems. :) And these are: to get a tool that I would enjoy playing with. Ideally, this would be an additional program that adds useful functionality to the standard SOD: - splitting units - exchanging troops and artifacts - autosave - built-in rules/bans. That is, to listen to the opponents' feedback on SOD's shortcomings and try to encourage them to finish writing the editor. :) Now, point by point, in response to the comrades (this is my SUBJECTIVE opinion). 1. Psyche_7 - the first thing I noticed is that there are too many buttons - I'm sure that almost no one uses all of them, you get confused and you might even accidentally fire your archangels. :) So, does TE-light/TE not have artifact exchange? Or did you just miss it? 2. Vik. Splitting units - I agree - it's a convenience that the TE for SOD doesn't have yet. But the Chinese program does. By the way, Vik, you wouldn't believe how many people in Kyiv don't use the keyboard at all! Probably 70% of the players. :) For many, it was a surprise that you can split troops using Ctrl. :) 3. Alessandro - I understand what you mean about chess clocks. But there are situations, for example, with Gurney's cannon against a horde of zombies.... I would just choose my opponent - I even mark people like that in Ace (some with the "Slow" tag). 4. Samurai - it's a fact, but not for everyone. I personally like the variety. And I hardly play with players from the CIS countries anymore. 5. asm - your "Conclusion" is debatable, but the rest is good. About the rules for teleports - the Poles are making text files in the data folder, creating a game, and their opponent doesn't even know that, for example, undead heroes and water artifacts won't appear in the game. :) I advise you to study the Chinese program - it allows you to do everything: - split units - instant exchange of artifacts and troops - autosave - video recording.

=Logistik=

16 years ago

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the link, please.

In reply to Wicc

Alex_R

16 years ago

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Wicc

An extra 30-60 seconds per turn is a huge number.

Well, you can laugh at even worse things than that - so it's not an argument, just like with the football example...
If 8-10 extra minutes per game is critical to you...how many games do you play per week? And how many other players (playing on HeroesWorld) can you name who, thinking the same way, obviously treat this as e-sports?
The questions are rhetorical, since there's no point in arguing anyway.
To Alessandro
honestly - I haven't played either Light or Full, but I know about in-battle time from practice playing Heroes 5... well, it's all awful... sometimes 1 battle per turn, sometimes you have to conduct 3-4 battles with 3 heroes, and depending on the specifics of neutrals and your army/faction, it happens that you need to haul units across the map... not to stall in battle - but specifically to haul monsters - as a result, you either lose tempo or cross out some factions or combat tactics from the game, and that's a huge downside for the gameplay as a whole.

In reply to Captain

asm

16 years ago

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Captain

To be honest, I started this thread to solve my own problems. :)
My goal is to get a tool that I would enjoy using. Ideally, it would be an additional program that adds useful functionality to the standard SOD:
- splitting units
- exchanging troops and artifacts
- autosave
- built-in rules/bans.

In other words, to hear from SOD opponents about its drawbacks and try to encourage them to write a lighter version. :)

What's wrong with TE Light? It already has almost all the functionality you described, except for the autosave.
The only significant improvement is that this program is implemented as a DLL and connects automatically when the game starts.

Captain

1. Psyche_7 - the first thing I noticed is that there are too many buttons - I'm sure that almost no one uses all of them, you can get confused and even accidentally fire your archangels, for example. :)

The logic of the buttons is very convenient and becomes automatic after a couple of games.
The easiest thing to remember is:
Ctrl - splits
Alt - gathers

Captain

So, TE Light/TE doesn't have an artifact exchange? Or did you just miss it?

It does, but it's done by clicking on the arrows in the army exchange window. As well as the army exchange.

Captain

I suggest you check out the Chinese program - it allows you to do everything:
- split units
- instant exchange of artifacts and troops
- autosave
- video recording.

Video!!! That's interesting!!! I'll have to check it out!

In reply to Alex_R

Wicc

16 years ago

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Alex_R

You can mock just about anything, so that’s no argument, just like with football...
If 8-10 extra minutes per game is critical to you... how many games do you play per week? And how many players like that (playing on HeroesWorld) can you name who, thinking that way, obviously treat it like e-sports?

8-10 extra minutes don’t just appear out of nowhere; time is still fully consumed. But because this time is spent on meaningful actions rather than mindless clicking, the quality of the game improves.

With football, it’s not a very clear analogy. Much closer is chess. If you’ve played (with time control), you should know how adding 20-30% to the clock affects the game.

StickyFingaz

16 years ago

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Navukh and Alekh_R are arguing about things they don't know and don't want to know. The others understand this, but they still argue. You are all quite foolish people.

In reply to Captain

Wicc

16 years ago

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Captain

I recommend studying the Chinese program - it allows you to do everything:
- splitting single units
- instant exchange of artifacts and troops
- autosave
- video recording.

Why study the Chinese program when there is TE? :)

All these add-ons like Laiter and the Chinese program are somewhat reminiscent of attempts to tune Lada cars. That is, yes, you can install a spoiler, a more powerful engine, two exhaust pipes, a heated steering wheel, but it will still remain a tuned Zhiguli.

And for the next step in development, a different conceptual platform is needed. For Heroes, such a platform became WoG, which makes it easy to do things that are difficult to implement with external programs or by editing the executable. Moreover, judging by the discussions on DF2, the development of this platform for possible future tasks is still ongoing there.

Having such tools, one can aim for very serious things in terms of interface (not to mention gameplay). Therefore, all new ideas will either originate from TE(WT) or will be quickly implemented there.

And external programs for SoD will at best copy some features, and with a delay and not necessarily with quality.

Pay attention - in all the foreign communities that you praise so much, there is a tendency to modify SoD at the physical level - somewhere they edit text files, somewhere they even write external programs. Because they acknowledge the imperfection of SoD. And only HeroesWorld with HP takes the so-called "conservative" position, roughly like the English in football up until the 90s. I think it's not necessary to clarify what such an approach leads to ...

In reply to asm

Captain

16 years ago

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asm

What’s wrong with TE Light?

The problem is that I can’t play with any player...
and usually, these are foreigners – I find it more interesting to play with them right now.

To Sticky: Please, if you’re going to say something, provide arguments, instead of just saying that everyone else is an idiot and only you are the hero :)

AlexSpl

16 years ago

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I was thinking about creating a program to separate units and other things (before **vbn** created the lighter), so in terms of functionality, it would be something like TE buttons, but not interface buttons, but hotkeys. The program would work directly with RAM, so operations would be performed instantly and reliably (zero chance of error). I just feel a bit hesitant about doing something for SoD. There will always be those who are against it or who will criticize it.

In reply to Captain

asm

16 years ago

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Captain

the fact that I cannot play with any player...
Fair enough...

As Stiki noted... since we are spending time discussing this, you should also, on your part, not be lazy: install and at least once launch the game in test mode, so that you know what is being discussed.

WT is perfect for this; the patch takes 20Мб, installs on SoD with a single button—during installation it finds/asks where SoD is, copies the necessary files to a new folder and patches them. It creates a separate registry branch, meaning it does not intersect at all with current versions of Heroes.
It also uninstalls very well; there is an Uninstall shortcut that leaves no trace behind.

http://www.heroeswt.net/download.php

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