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It seems you have absolutely no idea about the concept of "creature growth per week." For reference: Goblin growth = 25 Centaur growth = 14 Shaman growth = 5 Warlord growth = 5 Dryad growth = 10 Dancer growth = 9 Elf growth = 7 Druid growth = 4 Unicorn growth = 3 Ent growth = 2
There are 3 "native" race cities on the map, and 2 dwellings of each level. Now, please recalculate the troop proportions, taking into account losses during attacks, and don't talk nonsense.
But, of course, if you can't calculate the proportions yourself, I'll do it for you. Regarding the unclear points: The ratio of Elves to Warlords should be 7/5, meaning there should be 1.4 times more Elves than Warlords. There are 138 Warlords in the replay. There should be at least 193 Elves. There are 206 in the replay. Any more questions?
And I'll say it again - this is a real game. With an opponent who knows the game well and is playing as an Elf against an Orc. He even managed to capture and develop Darkness (2%). He just didn't expect that the tactic of using a single powerful stack would be applied against him. The advantage in the army is insignificant - 20 Cyclops against 17 Dragons - it's just that the cities were captured a couple of days earlier, which is not surprising given Argath's specialization.
P.S. The phrase "The Elf hardly casts spells" shows that the initiative of the Warlords and Shamans is not just for show. And the Cyclops move so often for a reason. Although some people may not understand this.
Listen, mathematician, before you write anything, think! The troop ratio is simply insane in favor of the Orcs. When you compare armies, do it based on the level of the creatures, and you will see what a huge difference it is - about 30% is a lot! From experience, I know that this cannot be, unless the game was played with a clear advantage for the Orc player!
Furthermore: in the replay, it's not Wing! where is the leadership?
And even better, let me prove to you that the Elf (Wing) can defeat the Orc in the late game without any problems. Map "Lands of Exile," endgame on week 4, month 1. Then you can see the real quantitative ratio of the armies: Hamachi: heronets Password: 12345
Actually, I was talking about Necropolis troops under the control of Elves, or, at worst, Elves under the control of Elves.
No – you suggested transforming Elven troops into undead, but there might not be a Necropolis on the map; even if there is, there isn't always much point in the transformation...Lordesat
And the increase in trees is not 2, but 3.
That's right, but how many units of wood are needed for this? That's why my choice is dragons (or Castle).Lordesat
And the Castle is built much earlier by the Elves than by the Orcs.
Why is that?!Lordesat
The stack of Cyclops didn't impress me much.
Really...Lordesat
I was more impressed by the clumsy tactics of the Elf, the lack of using any spells at all. It's amazing – even archers and druids are not covered. And where is the much-praised Elven luck? :smile21: :smile21:
Suggest something more substantial instead of "clumsy" tactics than "much-praised Elven luck" – maybe we'll adopt it.
Саня Изи
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Firstly, you suggested producing undead units, but that's not the main point of my strategy. The main thing is to upgrade the elf to Dark Elf or find a Tome. Secondly, regarding the replay – I don't think getting wood in the late game is a problem, so there's no need to invent things about 2 Ents; that's just ridiculous. It's easier for elves to build a Castle than for orcs; it requires much fewer resources, which is why it's built earlier. So, someone developed very poorly, which is why the orcs have such a significant strength advantage. Regarding luck – not a single lucky hit – conclusion: either luck wasn't upgraded at all, or the orc has artifacts of death, which is unlikely. I also didn't see any light spells. So, you can keep this nonsensical replay for yourself as a memento.
Ereb
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After watching the replay and then reading your posts, I noticed that it was Winrael, not Wingael! Or are you so blind that you didn't see the greenish aura on the elf, and it seems the elf was wearing a ring that reduces speed in the late game, which isn't very effective... This hero has a terrible ability, so he should have leveled up faster than Argath. He should have focused on leveling up in light magic until Divine. With several cities, he would have been easy to find, and the cyclops would have fallen after the first attack on the elf. The leveling strategy was a failure.
Oh, this is interesting. :D Mish-ganListen mathematician, before writing anything, think!A wonderful phrase, Mr. Mish-gan.:smile54: It shows that you skipped not only math lessons in school but also Russian language lessons. Furthermore, you have quite serious problems with politeness in forum communication. By the way, I haven't shared a drink with you to be on own terms, nor would I even after insistent offers, so your "listen" and "think" are perceived by me as banal rudeness in this context. :smile38: Yes, and you flattered me by calling me a "mathematician." Unfortunately, by education I am an electrical mechanical engineer, not a mathematician at all, but I always think before writing something, while for you, apparently, it's the other way around, that's how it is... :smile32: Anyway, enough lyricism, let's get to the point:Mish-ganThe troop ratio is simply insane in favor of the Orcs; when you compare armies, do it based on the level of creatures and you will see what a huge difference—about 30% is a lot!Honestly, I had a laugh at the "insane ratio." And I almost fell under the table at "30%." :smile52: Well, let me do the math since you cannot do it yourself due to your weak mathematical proficiency. Let's go through the unit growth: Level 1 716-417 with growth 25-10 25/10 = 2.5. That is, there should be 2.5 times more Goblins than Dryads. For equality it should be: 716/2.5 = 286. It turns out strange. With a count of 716 Goblins, there should be 286 Dryads, but there are as many as 417. :smile04: 417/286 = 1.46, meaning the Elf has 46% more level 1 units than there should be for theoretical equality. Result for level 1 - +46% in favor of the Elf.
Level 2 426-341 with growth 14-9 14/9 = 1.56 426/1.56 = 273 341/273 = 1.25 Result for level 2 - +25% in favor of the Elf.
Level 3 0-206 No need to even comment - the Elf has 206 Sylvan Archers and the Orc has none at all.
Level 4 155-119 with growth 5-4 5/4 = 1.25 119*1.25 = 148 155/148 = 1.05 Result for level 4 - +5% in favor of the Orc.
Level 5 138-103 with growth 5-3 5/3 = 1.67 138/1.67 = 83 103/83 = 1.24 Result for level 5 - +24% in favor of the Elf.
Level 6 0-32 Same as level 3. The Orc has none, the Elf has 32 Ents.
Level 7 20-17 with growth 1-1 Everything is calculated very simply here: 20/17 = 1.18 Result for level 7 - +18% in favor of the Orc.
The Magic Science of Mathematics shows us absolutely clearly that the Elf has the army superiority. And to reinforce the effect, the Magic Science of Mathematics also whispers to us that the entire Orc army in monetary equivalent equals 237 940 gold coins, and the Elf's army - 350 925 of those same tugriks, which is 48% more. Study mathematics, Mr. Mish-gan - it will come in handy in life. :smile42:Mish-ganNext: Wing isn't in the replay! where is leadership?And why should Wing be in the replay?:smile07: Apparently, you are also bad at reading. I wrote quite clearly in one of the previous posts (I will even highlight it specifically for you):MdanceEven Darkness does not save the elf from a strike stack of Cyclops. Specifically on a large map with several castles.Only Wingael can oppose the orc to some extent.And, accordingly, the replay shows that non-Wingael loses half an army before the hero's turn. As for the question about Leadership, it shows that you watched the replay inattentively, because the Elf units moved only a few times. Accordingly, Leadership is absolutely useless in this battle.Mish-ganAnd even better, let me prove to you that the Elf (Wing) will take out the orc in the late game without any particular problems, map "Outcast Lands", endgame on week 1 month 4, then you'll see the real numerical ratio of armiesNo way, Mr. Mish-gan, how could I possibly compete with you. Especially on a map that is played for maximum 3 weeks, especially since the topic in principle is about large maps with several castles... I'm afraid to play with you, that's how it is... :smile32:
Next is even better. :smile54: ErebAfter I watched the replay then your posts)) it's Vinrael not Wingael!! or are you so blind that you didn't see the greenish initiative of the elf and apparently the elf put on a necklace cutting speed in the late game it's not great...Here, we can see that a person can watch replays, only the conclusions aren't quite correct. 1. I already spoke about Wingael. 2. Wingael wouldn't have "green initiative" - his troops are simply "shifted" forward on the scale once at the very beginning of the battle, while the troop initiative does not change. 3. Speed was not "cut" by a ring for the Elf, but by the fact that the Orc had 2 artifacts from the Death set (-1 speed) and plus to this Storm Wind, which "cuts" the speed of all flying units (-2).ErebThe ability of this hero is something else so he should have leveled up faster than Argat..Absolutely incorrect. On large maps with lots of "tasty" things and many neutrals guarding this "tastiness," Argat easily outpaces other heroes due to her Logistics bonus and reduction of movement penalties. Moreover, she gets the Path of War very early, which allows her to run from neutral to neutral almost without losing movement points. Accordingly, she clears various zones with Utopias, Treasuries, etc., and calmly comes to the enemy all decked out in artifacts and having visited a bunch of upgrades, while the enemy is only preparing to enter these zones. Therefore, Argat is usually several levels higher than the opponent if she didn't fail against neutrals that were too strong for her at the time. If the opponent had not been Vinrael, the level advantage would have been 3-4, not 1 as in the replay, since I cleared almost the entire huge dungeon on the map we played. The enemy managed to "snatch" only a small part and that's only because he took Logistics, while for Argat it is "built-in." By the way, on that same "Outcast Lands" map that Mr. Mish-gan suggested I play for 4 months (terrifying to think - what could one possibly do there for such a time?) I developed Argat to level 17 in 9 days just as a test, when some people said it was impossible and that perhaps their opponent cheated when on the 10th day he killed their undeveloped hero with a similar accelerator. It turned out that even without cheating level 17 is reachable; you just need to know who and how, that's how it is...:smile32: And yes, Argat is a girl. :smile43: Erebshould have leveled in light until god's vengeance.... with several cities he can easily be found and cyclops would fall after the elf's first spell... basically the build is trash((The opponent found the Tome of Darkness and leveled Darkness, knowing that Orcs are vulnerable to it. This is indeed true - Darkness rules against Orcs. If the Orc is not developed according to the scheme presented in the replay. The Elf simply did not expect such a turn of events. As for Light, I would have cut it with Dimming of Light. And besides Cyclops there were other dangerous strike stacks; moreover, by the hero's turn he had few troops left. Even Subjugation on Cyclops (which is even more effective than their complete destruction) solved absolutely nothing.
I will repeat once more for those who didn't understand why I posted the replay and am conducting this discussion regarding the "Fallen Ranger": When an Orc applies such a development scheme with an emphasis on a strike stack of Cyclops (but only on large rich maps, so that the stack is sufficiently large, and there are artifacts reducing enemy initiative), only Wingael can oppose the Orc, because his troops can move before the Cyclops and disrupt the Stronghold's plans. Other "Fallen Rangers" simply won't be able to do anything, losing a significant part of their army before their first unit or hero moves. Which is what this replay demonstrates, where the Orc wins while having an army smaller than the Elf's (this is not up for discussion - it is proven by both growth ratios and monetary ratio).
Я видел, как Небо окутала Тьма, и Небо смирилось с Судьбой, Горящие реки сходили с ума, пытаясь остаться водой, Земля пропустила коварный удар, раскрывшись на шаге вперёд, Взлетел разъярённым драконом Огонь и понял, что тоже умрёт...
valery
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Watched the replay. Very insightful. Question for the player: what map were you playing on? And did the Elf have a chance to finish the game earlier?
Regarding the Elf's build: maybe it would have been better to go for "Sharp Mind" and use "Enchanted Arrow" on a few Berserkers.
And finally, I'm really looking forward to the Mdance-Mish-gan replay.
P.S. I sincerely don't understand the point of playing on the Outcasts for 4 months. If the opponents start on the same level, you can easily join on week 2 or 3.
Regarding the elf's development: maybe it would have been better to go for "Sharp Mind" and cast "Enchanted Arrow" on a few berserkers.
That's exactly the basis of my tactic. A few berserkers or a few "Subdue" spells. It was definitely better to take "Sharp Mind," then no cyclops would have helped. I myself saw what happens to the enemy army. And I think Mr. Mdance was just lucky, because the same druids and archers could have been placed in different parts of the map and protected. The elf didn't have many dragons, and there wasn't absolute luck either. He could also have learned "Readiness." But in general, I wouldn't say that orcs 100% lose to elves, so I don't agree with mish-gun here. The orc just got a lot of artifacts, and it would be interesting to see an Arghat game; it's good that you can develop so quickly in a short time. I have a question for mdance regarding the replay. Arghat goes first and uses "War Cry." But Inrael goes second and sees that there are two consecutive turns for the cyclops. Why, then, does he do nothing and skip his turn? That's just complete stupidity. If he had immediately subdued the cyclops, the orc would be doomed. I just can't understand how the elf could have been so clueless.
Mish-gan
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For Mdance - Let's skip the formalities, be more straightforward! Post #12, I repeat - read what you write (this is about Wing), and in everything else, you've overcomplicated things for yourself, but essentially, you contradict yourself. You're far from practical experience; play more!
3. By the way, on that very "Outlands" map, where Mr. Mish-gan suggested I play 4 months ago (it's scary to think what you can do there for so long!), I developed Argath to level 17 in 9 days just to test it out, when someone said it was impossible and that his opponent was probably cheating when he killed the undeveloped hero with his own accelerated hero on the 10th day. It turned out that level 17 can be reached without cheating; you just need to know who and how to do it. :smile32: And yes, Argath is a girl. :smile43:
In 4 months, you can capture 4 Utopias 4 times each (a total of 16); at worst, only 8 times (assuming opponents only clear their own floor) :) - otherwise, after the first month of "clearing" activities, the whole "game" boils down to buying upgrades and actively using the "end turn" key (Enter) =)
Added 7 minutes ago Lordesat
You could also learn "Readiness".
Study the game mechanics - "Readiness" won't help here, as the unit that will use it must have time to take a defensive position (key D "Defend") - the elves didn't have that turn. And in general, "Readiness" is not for elves (although it could be the basis of your new tactic ;)) :)
Added 5 minutes ago valery
I watched the replay. It's very revealing. Question to the player: what map were you playing on? And did the elf have a chance to finish the game earlier? Regarding the elf's development: maybe it would have been worth going for "Keen Mind" and casting "Magic Arrow" on several Berserkers. And finally, I'm really looking forward to the Mdance-Mish-gan replay. P.S. I sincerely don't understand the point of playing on Outlands for 4 months. If the opponents start on the same floor, you can easily come in during the 2nd-3rd week.
If my memory serves me correctly, the map is "Three Rivers". It's difficult to come in early - the landing on the shore is guarded by a horde of Jarls; in the underground, the monsters are even tougher - so you can quite calmly develop and build 3 cities (for which you get money/resource bonuses).
For Mdance - Let's skip the formalities, be more straightforward! Post #12, I repeat - read what you write (this is about Wing), and in everything else, you overcomplicated things, but essentially you contradict yourself. You are far from practice, play more!
And I will repeat to you once again - you, sir, are being rude (and making mistakes).
valery
I watched the replay. It's very revealing. Question to the player: on what map did you play? And did the Elf have a chance to finish the game earlier?
No. Arghat doesn't give anyone such a chance. The endgame only happens when Arghat wants it to - that's her specialization. :D The map is Three Rivers, as antonag07 already said. Slightly modified, because the map was created by Erdovet for version 1.3. I added stronger monsters, dwellings, and a mentor. And I play it if I need to check something in the late game with large armies. For example, we tried Warlocks on "big meat" (about 45 Dragons). Also, hero level 30+. His army looks quite decent. Especially the Minotaurs with double strike. Chains with Combat Alchemy and three cities deal insane damage. But Orcs still rule - Anti-Chaos and all that... I even uploaded replays somewhere here at some point. I played with Ayle (he was even a moderator here at some point). And in this replay, Nerevar played as the Elf. Will you doubt his competence?:smile08:
valery
Regarding the Elf's upgrade: maybe it would have been worth going for Sharp Mind and casting Enchanted Arrow on a few Berserkers.
This is the vulnerability of the Elves' racial ability - you can simply not find the cursed ones, especially if the area with all sorts of Treasure Rooms and other goodies has already been cleared, because there are usually a lot of neutrals guarding it. And if you find them and place them, it's dangerous to cast Berserk on Cyclops at all - they will attack the Elven troops.
valery
And finally, I'm really looking forward to a replay of Mdance vs. Mish-gan.
There won't be such a replay. The game should be enjoyable. What pleasure can there be in playing with an uneducated boor?
valery
P.S. I sincerely don't understand the point of playing as Outcasts for 4 months. If opponents start on the same level, then you can come in on the 2nd-3rd week.
Likewise. I don't understand what you can do there either.
Lordesat
This is exactly the basis of my tactic. Several Berserkers or several Subjugations.
Learn the basics - you can't have several Subjugations. Several Berserkers - yes, you can. But here's the problem - you need to find the right cursed ones and know that the opponent will use exactly this development scheme.
Lordesat
It was definitely necessary to take Sharp Mind, then no Cyclops would help.
Actually, the opponent had Sharp Mind - this is visible in the replay. Winraell moves much earlier than Arghat, although Arghat was moving on the morale scale of her army (a full set of Knight).
Lordesat
I saw what happens to the opponent's army. And I think Mr. Mdance was just lucky, because those same Druids and Archers could have been placed on different sides of the map and protected.
You have no idea what it means to "protect" against Free Cyclops. This, unfortunately, is a fact.
Lordesat
The Elf had few Dragons, and there was no absolute luck. It was also possible to learn Readiness.
Yes... +3 Dragons and Absolute Luck on 6 (!!!) attacking actions would undoubtedly have turned everything in favor of the Elf. :smile52:
Lordesat
But in general, I wouldn't say that Orcs 100% beat Elves, so I don't agree with mish-gun here. The Orc just collected artifacts, and it would be interesting to see Arghat play, it's good that you can develop so quickly in a short time.
We're not talking about who beats whom. We're talking about the fact that this scheme deprives the Elf (because we're talking about leveling up in "Fallen Ranger", although it's more correct to say "Fallen", not "Falling") of the basis for casting - an army. And Darkness implies an army. Because a lot of weakening and curses for the enemy, so that our army beats him harder. And here - bam! and we don't have an army yet before casting.
Lordesat
I have a question for mdance regarding the replay. Arghat goes first and casts a war cry. But Winraell goes second and sees that there will be two consecutive turns for the Cyclops. Why, I ask, doesn't he do anything and skips his turn? This is complete stupidity. If he had immediately subjugated the Cyclops, the Orc would be doomed. I just can't understand how the Elf could be so stupid.
No, I already told you that you don't know how to watch replays. Before the battle, they simply show the heroes and that the Orc's armies get 1 level of Fury (due to 3 cities). They (the heroes) don't move at this time. Winraell moves first after the Cyclops have hit twice and destroyed half of the Elf's army, precisely because of Sharp Mind - when he casts Berserk on Centaurs. If there was no Sharp Mind, he would have moved much later. And the Centaurs would have shot at least once.
By the way, the conversations about "army superiority" have ended. At least I taught the opponents something, namely - to think and read carefully. :D By the way, I created a dueling preset for Garuna based on this development scheme. There, there definitely cannot be any superiority in the army or artifacts, because everything is limited. You can see how it tears apart standard heroes from standard dueling presets, not even giving them a chance to move.
Yes, a curious fact - the Cold Lord perk, which gives "freezing" of the enemy unit when casting Water element spells, is useless against such a strike stack. Because it can still attack even in a "frozen" state without moving on the ATB, because it is moved by the Leaders and the hero.
Я видел, как Небо окутала Тьма, и Небо смирилось с Судьбой, Горящие реки сходили с ума, пытаясь остаться водой, Земля пропустила коварный удар, раскрывшись на шаге вперёд, Взлетел разъярённым драконом Огонь и понял, что тоже умрёт...
Learn the basics – you can’t have multiple summons. You can have multiple Berserkers, yes. But the problem is that you need to find the right creatures to summon and know that your opponent will use exactly this development scheme. You have absolutely no idea what it means to “defend” against Free Cyclops. This is, unfortunately, a fact.
First of all, you can have multiple summons – I checked it myself. I don’t need your “basics.” Secondly, the Cyclops could still have been stopped by summoning, instead of wasting a Berserker on Centaurs. What did they kill? Shamans or something? And stop saying that I can’t watch replays; some people just can’t play. Why isn’t there an Enchanted Ballista? Shouldn’t the Elf have been prepared for such a turn of events? You could also have taken the Path of War, couldn’t you?
Question for mdance: What are the chances of the Undead winning against the Orcs with this build?
I watched the new replay and didn’t understand anything. Is this some kind of joke? Cyclops with 80 attack chops everyone to pieces. I doubt this is a normal battle, mdance. Please don’t joke around like that and post something serious.
First of all, there can be several subordinations – I checked it myself. Don't lecture me on the technical details.
Don't be like that, it's your choice :) "You learn from your mistakes" (quote).:smile04:
valery
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Firstly, if you cast "Subjugation" on Cyclops, their initiative will decrease. It is multiplied by 0.03 * magic skill; with an elf's magic skill of 14 and a Cyclops' initiative of 12, it will become 5. And wouldn't many Cyclops end up killing each other? Secondly, regarding the new replay, I don't understand what was wrong with it. Or has the "Garun's Special" ability been removed? By the way, at the end of the battle, the Cyclops' attack was 94. And finally, I don't understand what a magically enhanced ballista would offer. By the way, the chance of finding it is only 2%.
Firstly, if you cast Subdue on Cyclops, their initiative will decrease. It is multiplied by 0.03 * magic skill; with an elf's magic skill of 14 and a Cyclops' initiative of 12, it will become 5. And wouldn't many Cyclops end up killing each other? And finally, I don't understand what a magically enhanced ballista would achieve. By the way, the chance of finding it is only 2%.
At least these Cyclops would stop killing elves, and the elf could regroup and strike back during that time, although it's hard to counter with Fury. But at least it wouldn't be such a shameful defeat. And a magically enhanced ballista could also attack someone, perhaps with Berserk or Subdue.
And the enchanted ballista could also target someone with Berserk or Subjugation.
So, to immediately remove "Subjugation" from the Cyclops, and they continue to slaughter the elven army?! Read the manual in your free time – at least the "Magic" section...:eek:
Mish-gan
