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Posts from Balance-2009

Tournament History online Closed Topic
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In reply to Mizrael
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Offline wowa
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#137
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Mizrael

There was an incident...

but we still had a case of déjà vu, albeit an incomplete one: Grechka lost his second game in a row to a Fortress hero with zero mana! :D :D
"...the personal strengths and weaknesses of a leader are no true indication of the merits of his cause"

(с) Roger Zelazny
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Offline bRitvo4kA
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#138
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Vovin's report can easily be submitted to the contest, due to the abundance of "Heroes" slang: "traded and inserted the cops" smile54:
В дикім полі
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Offline Wicc
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#139
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Excellent balance template :). We played according to the Chinese rules, and played for a whole 4 hours. During that time, we not only failed to start a new game, but we didn't even take a single subjective restart :). Sometimes there's no road to the village, sometimes there's no road to the main town, and sometimes something else. We generated maps with L-U, L+U, and XL-U settings. The structure of the template is specifically designed to exploit road network bugs; you couldn't come up with a better one. On the starting area, there are 2 road destinations (towns), but there are 3-4 exits – choose whichever road you like from the village to where you want to go. And there are also options for the road to the main town – for example, you can go to a treasure, and then turn into the central zone, without entering the opponent's starting area. And it's good if he checks all the roads and spots such a trap. But what if he doesn't? I'm starting to understand the Chinese players who use a third party to confirm that the map generation is bug-free. I won't play this garbage again. You play the most awful templates, full of bugs and imbalances, and then brag about how hardcore you are, that you're not afraid to start with 10 gnolls and only one road to the main town. It's disgusting...
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Offline Avern
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#140
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Well, it's been known for a long time that Russia has two problems...
In China, everything is organized; they're building capitalism under the leadership of the Communist Party. It's all about balance.
But still, we're better, even our random generator plays better. Remember the Redwhait-LeBron match, where the green bot simply dominated. It's good enough to submit to the "Best Chronicle of 2009" contest.
But guys, can you please pull yourselves together? I can't just give the generator all the credit. (Although there are certain advantages: I don't have to go to the post office).
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Offline wowa
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#141
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Wicc
Excellent Balance template :).

I tried generating a single map: I didn't manage to create a single decent TE-Light map in 3 or 4 attempts – they all had bugs:

I generated a decent SoD map on the first try, with one exception: the Guardian of Order wasn't on the road, but near the teleport, 2 cells away from the road:

Everything else was normal.... I didn't generate any more, but the suspicion that the TE random map generator has been modified seems to be confirmed... :rolleyes:

I remember that the first Chaos patch, which was also based on WoG, generated maps very poorly, for example, it created HM12 maps with such ravines and roads squeezed between mountains, and fragmented resource spawns, when suburban mines were on small patches of grass separated by snow, for example... and all of this was again compressed towards the road....... but then a patch for the Chaos patch was released, and the HM12 issue was fixed..... well, almost)))

So, I'm afraid that either we need to ask someone to generate a map on SoD and then give it to Light as a map, not a save, or Vikk needs to learn SoD with Light, which doesn't penalize for using level 1 units yet.... :cool:
"...the personal strengths and weaknesses of a leader are no true indication of the merits of his cause"

(с) Roger Zelazny
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Offline numOne
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#142
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Perhaps Vik is right, and this template is generated somewhat poorly on the Lite version – I haven’t checked. On SOD, the balance is excellent; I personally played over 30 games on it (L-U) and have no complaints about any of them. As for the lack of a road to the home village, a rest is taken, which, in my opinion, is stated in the rules.
Пусть мой враг будет силен и страшен. Если я поборю его, то не буду чувствовать стыда.
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Offline Wicc
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#143
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wowa
I tried generating a single map:smile16:. TE-Lite doesn't produce a single decent map in 3 or 4 attempts – they're all buggy:smile34:.

SoD generated a decent map on the first try, with one exception: the General's Outpost isn't on the road, but near the teleport, 2 (two!!) cells away from the road:smile02:.
Who studies the generator's behavior based on just a couple of generations? You need to start with at least 20...

Besides, the formal absence of a road to the General's Outpost is a valid occurrence.
I remember, the first Chaos patch, which was also based on WoG, generated maps even worse, for example, HM12 created such ravines with roads squeezed between mountains, broken resource spawns, when suburban mines are on patches of grass, separated by snow, for example... and all this is again drawn to the road... but then a patch for the Chaos patch came out, and in version 12, it was almost fixed...)))
Is this perhaps a patch for HM? What you're describing can be fixed at the level of the template scheme, not at the level of the generator (which I don't even know how to access). For example, in 8xm12a, I fixed the factor of the map being filled with mountains and rocks.
so, I'm afraid, either we need to ask someone to generate a map on SoD, and then give it to Lite as a map, not a save, or Vik needs to master SoD with Lite, which doesn't penalize for level 1 units yet...:cool:
We need to ask someone else to generate maps while tracking bugs. The template structure doesn't change with a version change, and neither does the generator's behavior.
Perhaps comrade Vik is right that this template is generated poorly on Lite - I haven't checked. On SoD, the balance is excellent; I personally played more than 30 games on it (L-U) - I have no complaints about any of them.
How is it that none of them... that is, both always had a road to the General's Outpost and the secondary resource? Share the secret with the Chinese; they are suffering and hiring third parties.

I perfectly understand that decent maps can be generated on Balance. For example, we played without problems with Alessandro, but with Vova, we had such a losing streak. On CM, there are also N consecutive generations with one road to the General's Outpost; I've encountered it myself. The question is that certain features of the template greatly contribute to such bugs.
And regarding the absence of a road to the home town, a rest is taken, as far as I know, this is stated in the rules.
And that's what I've been talking about all this time?
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Offline Avern
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#144
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Spent the morning trying to get the map generator to create a buggy map for testing.
Approximately after 15-20 generations, a buggy map appears for the XL size. The most common bug is the absence of a road to the home town. At the same time, the guards are placed in the sand, as if connected by an off-road path.
Once, it generated a beautiful map: two Ramparts had a shared home town :) (The second one was also present, but in the corner).
For the L size, bugs appear much less frequently, but this is subjective; we cannot talk about statistical significance yet, as only 50 generations have been tested.
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Offline numOne
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#145
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Even without a road leading to the Grand Order, it's still quite playable, better than, for example, on a Stronghold map with only one road leading to the Grand Order.
Пусть мой враг будет силен и страшен. Если я поборю его, то не буду чувствовать стыда.
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Offline Wicc
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#146
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numOne
Even without a road to the Grand Order, it's still quite playable, better than, for example, on the Stronghold map with only one road to the Grand Order.
Possibly. But Vova wanted to play according to the Chinese rules, and there, you restart if there's no road to the Grand Order or to a village.

Although, most of the time, we failed because there was no road to the secondary resource.
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Offline wowa
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#147
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Avern
I killed the morning trying to force the generator to create a bugged map on TE.
Roughly every 15-20 generations, a bugged one appears for size XL. The most common bug is the absence of a road to the home village. Simultaneously, guards are placed in the sand—off-road—as if these things are interconnected.
Once it generated something actually beautiful: two Ramparts—they had a shared home village :) (The second one was also present, but in the corner)
For size L, bugs appear significantly less often, but that is subjective; we're not talking about statistical reliability yet, as there have only been 50 generations.

Exactly, according to my statistics in this tournament, SoD also generated normally with Mizrael and Cash for a whole 5 games, including numerous restarts :) I think they took the village once, but even that's not certain... so I don't know what to think of the wretched VoG engine anymore!.. :confused:
"...the personal strengths and weaknesses of a leader are no true indication of the merits of his cause"

(с) Roger Zelazny
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Offline Wicc
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#149
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Your balance is shit :).

With the help of Therm, who tracked buggy generations, we somehow managed to start. Even considering that we decided to abandon restarts due to the lack of a road to the Griffin Conservatory, roughly a third of Therm's generations were still rejected.

But in general, this is a true lottery. The outcome of the game depends about 80-90% on what is placed around the castle. Tempo doesn't matter at all; you just need to carefully pick up God's Gifts and come measure yourself against the opponent.

Neighboring respawns are usually tight, with little to offer, only if you can pick up some gold or resources. Also, quite often, there are no other roads besides the village and the Griffin Conservatory.

So, although the size seems to be XL, there is no game — either they gave something tasty near the castle, or they didn't. There are no treads, nowhere to run, everywhere is poor territory, Griffin Conservatories and Hives almost never generate.

Even SM is many times more balanced and strategic.

1-0

P.S. There is a sensible thought. After the restart phase is over, give the save to a third party, and if the layouts are clearly unequal in strength, immediately award the victory. Because there's nothing to compensate for, and it's a waste of time for such a game.

P.P.S. I'm serious.
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Offline Avern
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#150
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What is with all this defeatist attitude?!
It's a shame that Wicc gave up so quickly; we'll miss him in the tournament. :)

P.S. But seriously, in preference, there's a rule: the more you complain, the more the card will favor you.
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Offline Wicc
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#151
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Why did you give up so quickly... for now, it's 1-0 in my favor.

I got two mage dwellings and Aislinn, while my opponent didn't get any. There's no point in describing the rest; it's clear what happened – lots of mages, lots of skeletons, lots of combat damage. No matter what, that starting position was impossible to win, even considering my own mistakes.

And the thing is, almost all the starting positions are like that. Here's a brief description:

1) Castle, two roads, one leading to a Garrison, the other to a Griffon Roost. No dwellings or money. I attacked, and lost 2 morale in the first round – restart. The opponent has 7 heroes on day 1 and a lot of roads.

2) Barbarian, one road to a Garrison, the other to a village. The village is blocked by 40 Goblins and 25 Elementals. No money, one Orc dwelling deep inside. The opponent has a Castle with a Stable, a couple of Outposts, and a lot of roads. I got lucky – restart due to incorrect road placement.

3) Tavern, one road to a Garrison (Mage Guild), the other to a village. No money, one Gremlin dwelling. Off-road, one direction is blocked by 80 Lizards, the other is a 5-day journey to nowhere. The opponent has 2 Wolf dwellings, 1 Goblin dwelling, some money, and roads. I only found this out on day 2, but the restart was still available on day 1. I was already about to give up, but the opponent took a restart with 113!!! I got lucky.

4) Rampart, the road to the village is blocked by 3 Guards with 6000 value each. No dwellings, not much money. The opponent has 3!!! Vampire dwellings, 2 Outposts. Restart due to a road that deviated from the starting point.

Finally, in this series of starting positions, something playable appeared, and the opponent didn't even take a restart (which they later regretted).

In other words, it was just a coin flip, and somehow it landed in my favor. And the skill factor has minimal influence here; in all these starting positions, there would have been a one-sided stomp even with a significant skill difference.
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