Skip to content

Posts from Moscow qualifier.

Closed Topic
No ratings yet — be the first to rate!
In reply to Nagan-4
User Avatar
16 years ago
Auto-translated
Nagan-4
To the question of what would happen if TE was instead of SoD, I will answer: in my opinion, it would be a wasteland. No forums, no players, almost nothing at all.
They would be somewhere in between the players of the fourth and second versions (no offense).

Why? Because SoD is imperfect. Just as the person who is trying to outsmart a robot in logical thinking is imperfect.
So, no more drinks for Nagan :D.

Don't let him hang out with the Starcrafters, Quake players, and others, or they'll beat him up :smile33:

If Heroes had 9 balanced castles from the beginning, a bug-free and balanced map generator, convenient controls, chess clocks, simultaneous turns, replays, short game time (3-5 hours), etc., it wouldn't be a wasteland, but a recognized esports discipline, with regular championships, including international ones. And who knows, maybe it would even lead to WCG.

Moreover, if TE in its modern form had been promoted around the year 2000, when the wave of people with open minds had not yet subsided, it would have been roughly the same.

There was even a real example - the Chaos patch was made based on WoG, and the balance of SoD was adjusted, and this did not cause any outcry. But modern... hmm... "partisans" are even complaining about Light, which has the same balance as SoD.

I once wandered into a group of Warcraft 2 fans. I was surprised and asked why they weren't playing Starcraft. I heard arguments similar to those I hear from SoD fans - well, it's a classic, everything is simple, there are no wild amounts of features, they like the imbalance, and in general, they like to give orders to each unit, like micro-control, not like in Star, where you select a group and send it through an attack.

When I pointed out that there is no less precise micro-control in Star, and any top Starcraft player, after a short training, would crush them in Warcraft 2 purely due to the speed and accuracy of micro-control, I received the objection "let him try." And that's when I left those elusive Joes.
16 years ago
Auto-translated
They're getting tiresome, honestly. Please stop the pointless chatter. We consider TE-Lite from SOD to be no different.
Engage in promoting TE-full or crystal-clear SOD elsewhere.
In reply to SAG
User Avatar
16 years ago
Auto-translated
SAG
Honestly, it's getting tiresome. Please stop the pointless chatter. We consider TE-lite from SOD to be no different.
Engage in promoting TE-full or purely SOD elsewhere.
I don't understand what you're waiting for? Instead of answering the questions you raised about the rules, people have started a discussion about which end of the egg to crack.
Post a draft of the rules and regulations with a promise to consider the wishes of potential participants, as was done in previous tournaments, and that's it.

There was no mention of the tournament format – hopefully, it will still be a Swiss system.

From the rules:
11) System for balancing colors and cities – trading based on a new principle – until the opponent gives up the city, then trading for the color.
The method for determining which castles will be traded for is not specified.
In reply to Dirty_Player
User Avatar
16 years ago
Auto-translated
Dirty_Player
Everyone would be playing TE if the developers had created it.
Kostya, TE wasn't made by players; it was made by Horn, and we should be very grateful to him. Can you elaborate on why you think the developers could have done a better job than Horn? They created a great game for single-player, campaigns, etc. But online play is a different story; there are many flaws. Explain to me why you would play the official version if it's not well-developed. Do you really think everything is perfect in SOD?
My TE-loving dad would definitely win against me!
So, what does 10 gnolls and 100+ trolls have to do with it? Did the Samurai have 10 gnolls?
But then I realized that TE is just going in the wrong direction. I won't go into too much detail about the intricacies of why.
Tell me why, without being sarcastic.
I'm not saying SOD is better, just that TE is worse. It's worse because of its features that don't fit the spirit of Heroes.
What features don't fit the spirit of the game, besides experience?
The same experience system. Many people say that it's not necessary, and so on. But tournaments are held with it, so what should we do? All the portal and Worlds players who registered for the tournament are going back. You, Vova, and Tolyan don't play with experience, right?
Yes, we play without experience, which brings up the question: is anyone forcing you to play with experience? Don't play on the tournament server; leave the necessary/logical/useful/in-the-spirit-of-Heroes settings, approve them, and play with them. That's what I don't understand; why not? If you configure TE to your liking, wouldn't it be better than SOD? Who is forcing you to disable morale, resource stacks, enable experience, and play on the tournament server? Playing TE doesn't mean you have to play on the tournament server.
In reply to Oelm
User Avatar
16 years ago
Auto-translated
Oelm
/topic/6096/

Tactician's corner

thanks :)

I took a look; I suggest we play on full random settings:eek:. Otherwise, we’ll have to figure things out more thoroughly, and that takes time...
In reply to wowa
User Avatar
16 years ago
Auto-translated
I'll be available on the weekend. Full random is a bit risky, but I'll consider it.
In reply to Oelm
User Avatar
16 years ago
Auto-translated
I would like to share my opinion on this matter; perhaps it will address many of the questions.

1. The main advantage of SoD is that it has been the default version for players coming from offline play for many years. This doesn't mean that SoD is better than TE, but it is its clear and main advantage. Almost all new players are SoD players, and this is no secret.

2. The main incentive for most players to try TE is to play against players like Stinger and Co. (although Paladin can play SoD without any problems, and others too). At this point, they are not focused on analyzing why TE is better. But, as someone rightly pointed out, tournaments on Battle.net are played on TE, which significantly distinguishes this game from the familiar SoD. Players simply understand that they will at least need to relearn, adapt to the possibilities of new options, etc., and before that, trying to compete with the TOP players on their "territory" is simply pointless. This creates a vicious circle.

3. Here is a personal example. I have always played SoD. At first, it was very difficult, then just difficult, and over time, mainly thanks to games with Paladin, I understood what and why, and some ambitions appeared. I also played a few games in TE. No one doubts that the interface is a clear plus. I understand most of the innovations, and moreover, I approve of them. In general, I agree that TE is more balanced and that the tasks set were implemented. BUT! This is the most important "but," and no matter what anyone says or what arguments they give. As a SoD player, I simply don't believe them. So, this "BUT" really lies in the fact that I don't want to delve into or, more precisely, spend time mastering all the new features of TE (I emphasize again, even the positive ones). The first reason is simply laziness or conservatism. The second is the realization that, by playing TE, you will first take a serious step back in your gaming skills until you understand the simple things at the level of the majority. The elementary balance adjustment of all second-level creatures and the presence of three stacks for starting heroes already create different expectations for certain castles. Adding to this the elementary balance possibilities of accelerated construction (for example, upgrading wolves for Barbarians) makes them clear favorites in TE (which, when I first encountered TE, I didn't realize), and so on. You can continue for a long time, but the essence is the same: some castles have been weakened, and some have been strengthened for balance, but this is no longer SoD in terms of strategy.
These are the main reasons why it is difficult for SoD players to switch to TE.

4. Online gaming time. Here, in my opinion, I judge by myself. I have been playing online since 2007 - not that long. Considering that all TE players play online much more, I cannot claim that by, say, 2010+, I will not get tired of the imbalance of SoD and I will not start playing TE. However, there is also a difference here. As I understand it, at one time, TE was mastered by a certain group of people together, in approximately equal conditions, and no one felt a gap in skill, which was perceived as intended.

5. The wrong approach to assimilating TE players with SoD players. A correct step was taken by Vic in the form of TE-Lite. Realizing that there are no changes - only the interface (although at first, even the notifications about resources taken instead of a window, which no longer required an extra click, were more annoying than simplifying the game - for example, I was looking to see what I had taken - 500 gold or 5 gems, etc.), many "decided" to try it, and I think everyone, including me, agreed that transferring troops with one button and splitting units is progress. But it didn't go any further. To absorb all the depth of thought and innovations of TE-Full, which were developed by the TE players themselves, is very difficult for a SoD player; he simply chokes on the flow of information, not as such, but on the attempt to immediately extract from it the benefits that have already been extracted by experienced TE players. It would have been necessary to hold tournaments on TE-Lite, gradually including one or another option, and I am sure that the desired result would have been achieved.
I remember that about a year ago, Vladimir suggested that I play a fun game in TE, and I agreed. To be honest, I liked it, especially the chess clock and fast travel. Yes, you can argue about many things (for example, the balance of magic, moving transport spells to fire and water so as not to create an imbalance with earth and air - and what? - in TE, everyone now uses water and fire :D), but if you say - guys, TE-Full is better than SoD - let's play TE - it won't work. And no one wants to play a fun game with someone in TE-Full or to look like a noob in serious tournaments.
Only a few have independently mastered and perfected all the advantages of TE. In my opinion, this is the objective result. Perhaps, as Armageddon said, there is not much point in promoting TE, as everyone has a real life and their own problems. And SoD does not need to be promoted - it is the default...

P.S. - for a tournament where there will be TE players and SoD players, TE-Lite is an undeniable compromise.
16 years ago
Auto-translated
I request that Stinger, StickyFingaz, Lanser, Markon, Keba share their opinions:
1) regarding templates:
a) specify desired templates
b) specify which ones they definitely won't play under any circumstances
2) regarding the game version:
a) specify the desired version
b) specify which versions they definitely won't play under any circumstances
3) regarding the timing of the event:
a) specify desired dates
b) specify when they definitely won't be able to play
4) other conditions under which they won't play.
In reply to Neoandy
User Avatar
16 years ago
Auto-translated
Neoandy

2. The main incentive for most to try TE is to play with players of the level of Stinger and Co (although that same Paladin plays SoD without problems, etc.).
Both Stinger and Alex calmly play SoD, as I think all the other veterans do
somehow this topic has turned into an off-topic confrontation between true SoD players and true TE players... aren't you tired of this yet, comrades? :)
In reply to Neoandy
User Avatar
16 years ago
Auto-translated
Neoandy

5. Incorrect approach to assimilating SoD players into the TE community. Vic took the right step by creating TE-Lite.

It was the wrong move from the perspective of promoting TE, and I told Vic that right away. No SoD player switched to the full version through TE-Lite. Because, why would they, when they already have the magic buttons? :).
User Avatar
16 years ago
Auto-translated
1) a) смка b) 2) a) TE-almost-full b) Dwarven Tunnels 3) a) Friday-Sunday or Saturday-Monday in the nearest month. b) - 4)
In reply to LeBron
User Avatar
16 years ago
Auto-translated
LeBron
and Stinger and Alex play SOD calmly, as I think all the other dads do.

Yes, I've played SOD with Stinger several times, and I know he even enjoys it ;) . But it seems not everyone does, otherwise they would be playing the tournament calmly on SOD and there wouldn't be all this fuss in the thread.
In reply to Neoandy
User Avatar
16 years ago
Auto-translated
Neoandy
The second reason is the realization that when you start playing TE, you will initially take a significant step back in your gaming skills until you understand the simple things at the level of the general public.
Yeah, that's a pretty serious reason. That's why I sometimes write articles, post game analyses with pictures, and think about recording a couple of walkthroughs. And I don't hesitate to answer people's questions; they often come in through ICQ.

Although, the most information comes from directly observing the game in real-time. And analyzing your own game saves with someone.

On the other hand, some people managed to figure it out on their own. Lebron, for example, even won the only game against me in TE on 8mm6.

Added 5 minutes later
Armagedda
It was the wrong move from the point of view of promoting TE, and I told Vika that right away. No one switched from TE-Lite to the full version. Because why would they, if there are magic buttons?
Lite was created for the tournament in Yekaterinburg, which was planned to be approximately the same level as this championship. And the goal was to create a compromise between TE and SoD. I didn't see any other compromise then, and I don't see it now. When thinking about the exit, don't forget about falling into the hole.

Besides, I personally don't consider the buttons to be the main advantage of TE. The Chinese have also created them, and vbn is working on something similar.
It's a relatively simple task, although it's definitely a must-have.
In reply to Wicc
User Avatar
16 years ago
Auto-translated
Wicc

But on the other hand, some players managed to figure it out on their own. LeBron, for example, even won the only game against me in TE on 8mm6.
That's who I had in mind when I wrote about the few.
Wicc

Besides, I personally don't think that buttons are the main advantage of TE. The Chinese have also made them, and vbn is working on something similar. It's a fairly simple task. Although it's definitely a must-have.
Believe me, for a newcomer, this is where they should start (and at the initial stage, it will be the most important thing for them), and everything else will come later.

Anyway, once you finish "Chaos", I'll organize a TE-lite tournament for you.

Statistics

Welcome our newest member: recijeb