Moscow qualifier.

wowa

10/15/2009 5:22 PM UTC

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In this topic, besides subjective opinions, there are also quite objective points.)))

The main idea is this: TE in its light incarnation is brought to the level of SoD in one go, and there are no differences, as mentioned above, and there cannot be any, the advantages are obvious! :)

So, what the hell is the point of taking a stand against this version of TE?!
When they made the Chaos patch (also based on WoG), which has a real difference from SoD, unlike the light version, no one protested, but everyone accepted it and started using it in tournaments, playing whatever they wanted at home.)))
And I will repeat myself a million times: I would rather believe that a hand drill is better than an electric one, and that it is better to separate units with a mouse than with the control key!.... :D :D :D

"...the personal strengths and weaknesses of a leader are no true indication of the merits of his cause"

(с) Roger Zelazny

In reply to wowa

Alex_R

10/15/2009 5:40 PM UTC

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wowa

may I ask, what rules will this battle be held under? ;)

It's elementary... double elimination, one game with one set of rules/version, another with different rules. If the score is 1:1, then you can vary things - but there's still a long way to go before that, so there's no need to delve into the details yet.

In reply to Alex_R

wowa

10/15/2009 5:52 PM UTC

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Alex_R

It's elementary... double elimination, one game with one set of rules/version, another with different rules.
If the score is 1:1, then you can vary things - but there's still a long way to go, so there's no need to delve into the details yet.

And why create more entities? Everyone would play on the "Lite" version and not worry - it's definitely better than one person mastering a new gameplay while others are stuck with the old one.

"...the personal strengths and weaknesses of a leader are no true indication of the merits of his cause"

(с) Roger Zelazny

In reply to КостяN

Wicc

10/15/2009 6:10 PM UTC

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KostyaN

I think you need to grind harder in TE...

It reminds me of 2003, when Warcraft 3 was released. Many people from StarCraft immediately rushed to it, started promoting it, saying it was a game of a new generation, much better than StarCraft.

I won't go into detail about the arguments, I'll just focus on one argument - they said that in StarCraft you have to grind a lot, but in Warcraft you can come up with something.

For the first year or two, that's how it was. Then there was an outflow back, with the same argument - in Warcraft, everything has already been grinded, the game has turned into a confrontation of micro-control, and in StarCraft there are various "gop-strategies."

Then the TFT expansion was released, and at first there was a wave of interest, many old players returned, but then the game again came down to a confrontation of micro-control.

In general, the conclusion is that the necessary degree of grinding is determined by two main factors: 1) about 80% - by the level of players, 2) about 20% - by the strategic depth of the game (or rather, the lack thereof).

An example regarding the strategic depth:

Of all the templates, the most grindy one is Jebus. Due to its low strategic depth, whoever eats more on the first turn and breaks through the Gate of the Elements earlier wins.

The least grindy one I know is 8xm12 on a 2500 start. Due to the abundance of paths, directions, small size, and overall poverty of the zones.

An example regarding the level of players - TE.

Yes, playing TE against Stinger & Co and having a lower level of grinding, the chances of winning are very small. For example, because on restarts, you can't force a situation where you have Taz with 3 stacks and your third native hero vs. Valya with 1 stack.

This is a sport, kid, the victory of the strongest is the norm, not the exception.

Added after 12 minutes

SpiriTT

2 Vik. Maybe I'm talking nonsense, but still. Have you ever wondered where this constant desire for different templates comes from?

It's like an itch in my ass :). I want to try everything and evaluate it. I like to come up with strategies, prioritize things in a new way, etc.

I sometimes play Light just out of curiosity, even though I don't plan to play it in tournaments.

SpiriTT

10/15/2009 6:32 PM UTC

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Thanks :) This explains everything :)

ну это вообще всем аргамездец!© Kash
без авто:smile20:
Человек - игрушка Бога. Этому - то и надо следовать. Надо жить играя.
Платон.

In reply to Nagan-4

Armagedda

10/15/2009 6:33 PM UTC

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Nagan-4

Why? Because SoD is imperfect. Just as imperfect as the person who is trying to outsmart a robot in logical thinking. They refined it, they showed who plays Heroes the best – and then what? Is it the perfect game for perfect people? Compare the original and current versions of Battle.net. At some point, a person will realize that there is simply nowhere to strive for.

I didn't want to get involved in the umpteenth argument about Battle.net versus SoD, but it seems I have to. Eric, with all due respect, don't start rambling. The original and current versions of Battle.net are different not because Battle.net is bad and SoD is great, but because I, Stepan, and Old Man stopped promoting and developing it for various reasons. Surely you know who came up with the rules that 90% of the Russian-speaking internet now plays by and promoted them, even though the top Chaos players at the time just smiled condescendingly. And where are they now? We could have promoted Battle.net too, but it didn't work out; our life priorities changed. I'm just amazed by the donkey-like stupidity of some SoD zealots. Just say, "I don't play Battle.net because I don't want to bother with all the features, download things, and configure it" – that's understandable. But no, I don't play it because SoD is ideal, because I masturbate every evening looking at a portrait of Van Caneghem, the genius who created the great game. I, for example, don't play Heroes 5. Because I don't want to bother with the new features and get used to the 3D graphics. I'm not ashamed to say that, but I don't keep saying that Heroes 5 was made not by 3DO, but by Nival, so it's not the real thing.

Nagan-4

10/15/2009 7:00 PM UTC

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I didn't want to get involved in the age-old debate between TE and SoD for the umpteenth time, but it seems I have to. Eric, with all due respect, you shouldn't be talking nonsense. The original and current versions of Bay are different not because TE is bad and SoD is great, but because I, Stepan, and Old Man stopped promoting and developing it for various reasons.

That's the point. If you don't constantly talk about how wonderful TE is and push it to the point of fanaticism, it will die immediately. Let's remember when Bay was created; almost all the active players went there to play TE.
And a new generation of players emerged on the Portal, such as Neoendi, Keba, Lesgor, Chudozavr, and many others. They didn't receive much help, and there were almost no top players. But the community grew into a powerful force.
When I came to World, it wasn't a blank slate. A group of players had already formed and was actively developing.
They found resources themselves, developed their own rules, and grew into a strong community without me or other more experienced players. There were people to organize and play in tournaments.

And if there hadn't been the Portal and World? Players would still have appeared, let's say those who came in the 3rd or 4th wave to World: they would have somehow united, found their organizers, and grown their own leaders. The only difference is that it would have taken more time.
SoD is an imperfect game, but it's very resilient, precisely because it finds its player, whether they are 12 or 42 years old.
But TE won't survive without strong promotion; if 2-3 people leave, that's it. If you, Old Man, and Balamut had continued to promote it for another 3 or 4 years, it would still have gone back to being a wasteland as soon as you left.

By the way, sorry if I'm cluttering up the thread and distracting from the discussion about the upcoming Tournament.

In reply to Dirty_Player

Volodymyr

10/15/2009 7:33 PM UTC

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Dirty_Player

Many want to play what the developers came up with, not someone who wanted to create a so-called "improvement."

A couple more questions, I just can't understand the logic of those who persistently claim that SoD is better as a game.

So, if TE had been made by Horn, not the "developers," would you play it instead of SoD?

First, they created The Restoration of Erathia, then Armageddon's Blade, then SoD, and then they dropped you-know-what :)
They added Conflux, a simple example, seems like a dumb faction that doesn't fit the game's logic, with a bunch of overpowered stuff, but people accepted it, came up with a bunch of rules on how to fix it, and play it. So how are you any better than the TE guys? Some sewed similar (broken, imbalanced) aspects into the game, others wrote a bunch of text, sit and bother with who can't do what. Why the hell can't you upgrade birds, psychos, and butterflies, why the hell is the starting hero random? That was the "developers'" idea :smile51:

In reply to Volodymyr

Oelm

10/15/2009 7:56 PM UTC

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Calling a qualifier held separately on SoD and on TE-lite anything other than a perversion of the entire championship.

Volodymyr, the rules were created and adjusted based on one principle, while TE is founded on a completely different ideology. That's exactly why it doesn't catch on with the masses. For me, Conflux is not a dumb Castle but on the contrary a gimmick, unfortunately unbalanced by the developers. This is probably where your views diverge from the SoD players.
------------------------------------

Wowa, I'm afraid I won't find time for the arena game in the foreseeable future (though I have a strong desire), but how about playing a TC (Tactician's Corner) — I propose we make a bet.

Земля нуля.
Все в ней нулево и кукольно.

In reply to Oelm

Volodymyr

10/15/2009 8:06 PM UTC

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Oelm

The main reason why TE is worse for me is that it makes the game less enjoyable and destroys the gameplay experience. This is due to the fact that the game starts with identical armies, which often turns the first week into a tedious and frustrating experience.

And 32 gnolls, without lizards, flies, and the ability to build level 2 structures, simply turn the generation into a restart, but it's a minor issue, as we all have plenty of time.

For example, the CM (Castle-Magic) template is completely unplayable for me in TE. 2 - Specialists in monsters, now you mostly have to play with them.

Only with them? And who do people play as on Soda? Kirr, Shakti, Valeska, Tazar, Neela/Ain, Gurney/Kreg - that's the whole list.

As a result, mages have completely disappeared from the game.

But they were never really there in the first place.

3 - For Inferno, the only effective strategy is demonology. This is not everything, of course, but it's enough for now.

What kind of strategy is there for Inferno? It's practically unplayable, while in TE it's a strong castle.

which makes the games very similar to each other. And this doesn't appeal to me at all.

Why? Because the version is called not SoD? Can you explain in detail why?

The only important plus for me in TE-full is the ability to play with strong players.

For some reason, no one wants to understand that ALL those who play TE used to play SoD for a long time and tediously, but over time they realized that they need to play TE. Explain to me why people who created the rules for SoD played it for years, and then stopped

In reply to Volodymyr

Oelm

10/15/2009 8:12 PM UTC

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Only them? And who plays as Sylvan in SoD? Kirr, Shakti, Valeska, Tazar, Neela/Ain, Gurney/Craig – that’s the whole list.

Quote:
Mages ended up completely dropping out of the game.
But they were never really there in the first place.

Sorry, but that’s not serious. Either you’re writing without thinking, or your skill level is just that low.

For some reason, no one wants to understand that ALL those who play, for a long time and tediously played SoD, but over time realized that they need to play as TE.

As far as I know, Wic, for example, immediately became a TE player. In the second part, this is simply not true. Many players play both versions in parallel, and not all of them are unequivocally in favor of TE.

Земля нуля.
Все в ней нулево и кукольно.

In reply to Oelm

Volodymyr

10/15/2009 8:20 PM UTC

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Oelm

Sorry, this is not serious. Either you're writing without thinking, or the level of play is just like that.

Are you talking about starting heroes or mages?

Oelm

From what I've heard, Wic for example, immediately became a TE player. In the second part, this is simply not true. Many players play both versions in parallel and, by the way, not all of them are unequivocally for TE.

Wic yes, but the majority of those playing started back with the second one.
Which of the old-timers plays TE, but at the same time says that SoD is better?:)

In reply to Oelm

wowa

10/15/2009 9:06 PM UTC

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Oelm

Wowa, I'm afraid I won't have time for arena matches in the near future (although I really want to), but how about playing a Tactician's Corner match – I suggest we play for a stake.

so we'll play the arena in the distant future))))))

and regarding tactics – please provide a link to the rules, the stake amount, and where to send the money afterwards ;) although we can discuss the last point in the game when we connect.

"...the personal strengths and weaknesses of a leader are no true indication of the merits of his cause"

(с) Roger Zelazny

AYMAN

10/16/2009 12:37 AM UTC

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Dear Armageddon, I liked your post; you might be right, but it's not my decision.
I started with the first Heroes game, then we played the second one. When the third one came out, it was something special (and strangely, that feeling remains to this day). And when the fourth one appeared, well, excuse my rudeness, but I can't say it any other way. I was shocked when I saw it; it was simply garbage. The fifth one – it was already focused on graphics, and honestly, it was also garbage.
So, what I'm getting at is, Armageddon is absolutely right about the reluctance to learn or even get into something new.

I personally was, am, and will be a fan of the third game, and I'm very glad that many people still play it. But honestly, I just don't feel like figuring out and getting into the newer ones.
But at the same time, a huge thank you to dear Viku for his persistent work and for satisfying the needs of many of our great fans.

Please don't judge; I just wanted to support the discussion and express my own opinion. I didn't want to offend anyone in my post; I was just expressing my IMHO.

In reply to Volodymyr

Dirty_Player

10/16/2009 1:24 AM UTC

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Volodymyr

So, if TE had been made not by Horn but by "the developers," would you play it instead of SoD?

Everyone would play TE if it had been created by the developers.

Volodymyr

First they created The Restoration of Erathia, then Armageddon's Blade, then SoD, and then they dropped you-know-what :)

Exactly. Nobody plays ROE and AB because it's customary to play the LATEST OFFICIAL VERSION. The people simply wouldn't have had a choice.

Some people complain about the matchup, like 10 Gnolls against 100+ Troglodytes. Oh, oh, oh... I once played an interportal game with Samurai; my start was Conflux with 3 stacks on all my heroes, 3 external dwellings on respawn, so in theory I should have been able to put up a fight. But when Broghild flew in on day 121 with 40 Wyverns, broke a Dragon Utopia, and came at me with huge parameters, I couldn't defend. Guess my skill just wasn't there... A true TE father would have definitely pulled through on my side!
What's the point of all this? Just that generator wins happen everywhere, and they aren't as common in SoD as many here claim.

I used to be a TE fan too, registered on bai, but then I realized that TE is movement in the wrong direction. I won't go into a long spiel about the whys and wherefores. I won't say SoD is better, just that TE is worse. It's worse because of its additional features, which are not in the spirit of Heroes. The same experience system. Many say you can play without it and blah-blah-blah. But on bai, tournaments are held with it, so what can you do? All the portal and world players who registered on bai ended up coming back. You, Vova, just like Tolyan, don't play with exp yourself. Right?

TE-lite is already some kind of compromise. Army transfer and so on are very tempting. If bai had originally had TE-lite, everything would have turned out differently. I understand those who talk about the advantages of lite, but I completely don't understand those who talk about the advantages of TE-full. :confused:

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