Posts from Appeals Committee. Disputed situations in tournaments.

Everything is excellent and well-written; I fully agree with the idea of creating a corresponding thread. Thank you, Pete, for your work!

Alex_R asked for an explanation of the AK’s decision regarding his games with Vitalik and Vigo in the Best of ХВ tournament.

Again, again, and again...
Most of all in this situation, I feel sorry for my time, senselessly wasted and still being wasted. I remember the negotiations with the players day by day; all my nerves are frayed. Starting from the team tournament, I spent a total of about 10 hours of my time — personal and work — trying to get you two to agree, along with all sorts of discussions, squabbles, and justifications. It’s like a bad detective story...

I provided the AK with the following information.

Game Alex - Vitalik.
Round 5. The draw appeared on June 7. Deadline set - June 21. 2 weeks — judging by the survey — more than enough time to play. I reminded almost all players about their games, Alex included. On June 20, messages from Alex_R and Vitalik appeared on the forum stating they were ready to play. On June 22, no result. We add 3 days. Silence. On June 25, we set the draw as 0-0 and offered to play until the end of round 6 (until July 5) to change the result.
Vitalik asked to schedule a time with Alex, since they couldn’t coordinate without a mediator. Alex writes that he can play on weekdays from 10 PM to 5 AM and on weekends during the day. Vitalik can play in the evening until midnight. Both agreed to play in several sessions from 10 PM to midnight. BOTH informed me they could play on Tuesday, June 30. I was forced to set a time — and sat waiting for them. Vitalik showed up, waited for Alex for 30 minutes, and started finishing his game with numOne. Also Best. Alex was late. The next day, they finally started playing, then postponed it; BOTH promised to finish and went silent. Neither of them reported in the following 4 days that they couldn’t come to an agreement. The round deadline and two extensions expired; silence. Finally, on July 6, we set it as 0-0.
No, the players didn’t believe the decision was final. Vitalik — I want to finish the game or take a draw. Alex — I want a tech win because I’m leaving. They couldn’t even agree on a draw themselves...
How long should we wait? People can’t play for a month. So who was stopping you from playing? The AK? Do we need to post kilometers of logs of my negotiations with BOTH players? Based on the logs, actually, Vitalik should be given the tech win rather.

Game Alex - Vigo.
Round 6. The draw appeared on June 25. Deadline - July 5. Vigo wrote on the forum that Alex’s time didn’t suit him — he doesn’t play at night.
I suggested they still try to agree, since Vigo sometimes plays at night and they could also coordinate on weekends. Alex wrote to me that they seemed to have agreed. And Vigo wrote on the forum that they had coordinated. Then — peace and quiet... The round ended. No result. Again... In this case too, we set it as 0-0 with an offer to play until the end of round 7 (until July 19). They’re silent. We wait some more. Then I ping Alex asking him to coordinate, while Derty talks to Vigo, who also offers Alex to play. Alex immediately disappears from ICQ without a reply. Then Vigo asks to set a time, but Alex is already leaving... Now Alex demands a tech win over Vigo. I don’t understand — for what? Because Vigo doesn’t want to play at night? Or because Alex disappeared from ICQ when attempts were made to coordinate?

The AK made the appropriate decision.

I suggest that in future tournaments, under these conditions and circumstances (two opponents), and with a clear violation of deadlines and disrespect for the organizers' efforts, disqualification or exclusion from subsequent tournaments should be applied...

Also, penalty points should be awarded and bans imposed in cases of critical cheating...

No, the players didn't believe that the decision was final. Vitalik wants a replay or a draw. Alex wants a technical win because he's leaving. They couldn't even agree on a draw...
How long should we wait? People can't play for a month. So, who was stopping you from playing? AK? Should I post miles of logs of my conversations with BOTH players? According to the logs, Vitalik should be the one getting the technical win.

Sorry, Pete, but you're also wrong here. If one of the players doesn't want to play, it's unpleasant to play (for various reasons) - he won't play, even if you give him a month or a year for the game. If his opponent wants to play, then it's not you who will bother him, but he will bother you, saying that the opponent is avoiding the game.
But if both opponents don't want to play, you won't achieve anything.

You just needed to give both opponents a technical defeat at the end of the round, as a matter of course.
Firstly, you won't waste your nerves and energy, and believe me, they are not unlimited.
Secondly, you won't bother the players unnecessarily; they also have nerves, because it's obvious that the rules have been violated - there's no reason to understand the fuss on the forum.

Alex R, Vigo, and Vitalik are well-known players, but in the tournament, they are equal to the others, and the rules are written for them too. In fact, you did everything right, respect, but one phrase about the rules would have been enough.
The player needs to show initiative during the round, not after.

Friends, we are slowly sinking into a swamp of squabbles and petty grievances; they are not worth it. We have a forum where you can chat, we have a fairly friendly Community of players, where you can always find an opponent for your favorite game... what else do we need?

Sorry, Pete, but you're also wrong here. If one of the players doesn't want to play, it's unpleasant for them (for various reasons), they won't play, no matter if you give them a month or a year for the game. If their opponent wants to play, it won't be you bothering them, but they will bother you, saying that the opponent is avoiding the game.
But if both opponents don't want to play, you won't achieve anything.

You should have simply given both opponents a technical defeat at the end of the round, as a matter of course.
Firstly, you won't waste your nerves and energy, and believe me, they are not unlimited.
Secondly, you won't bother the players unnecessarily; they also have nerves, because it's obvious that the rules have been violated – there's no reason to understand the fuss on the forum.

Alex R, Vigo, and Vitalik are well-known players, but in the tournament, they are equal to the others, and the rules are written for them too. In fact, you did everything right, well done, but a single phrase about the rules would have been enough.
The player needs to show initiative during the round, not after.

Friends, we are slowly sinking into a swamp of disputes and petty squabbles, and they are not worth it. We have a forum where you can chat, we have a Community of players, quite friendly, where you can always find an opponent for your favorite game... what else do we need?

But try to convince someone like Alex_R, who categorically disagrees with all of this. Good luck ;)

Game Alex - Vitalik.
Round 5. The draw appeared on June 7. Deadline announced - June 21. Based on the poll, 2 weeks is more than enough time to play. I reminded almost all players about their games, Alex as well. On June 20, messages from Alex_R and Vitalik appear on the forum stating they are ready to play. By June 22, there is no result. Adding 3 days. Silence.

We couldn't agree because there were problems with ICQ (messages from my home PC weren't going through). I see that he is online, I write to him, but he doesn't answer—how am I supposed to know why? Later, we figured out what the problem was at work. What, was I supposed to pester you with questions like "why aren't messages reaching my opponent?" or just write "we haven't played yet." Or were we the only ones in debt in the tournament?

June 25: we set 0-0 for the draw and suggest playing by the end of Round 6 (until July 5) to change the result.
Vitalik asked me to schedule a time for him and Alex, as they can't coordinate without a mediator. Alex writes that he can play on workdays from 10 PM to 5 AM and on weekends during the day. Vitalik can play in the evening until midnight. Both agree to play in several sessions from 10 PM to midnight. BOTH inform me that they can play on Tuesday, June 30. I was forced to schedule a time—and sat waiting for them. Vitalik appeared, waited for Alex for 30 min and started finishing his game with numOne. Also Best. Alex was late.

Yes, I was late; the logs show he wrote to me at 22:04, and I only replied at 22:32, although I was at my computer earlier, but specifically fixing the ICQ malfunction and couldn't warn him via ICQ—and didn't try other ways because I thought I could fix the connection quickly. And since he was already playing with numOne at 22:32, it shows that he waited for me much less.

Alex (12:36:05 27/06/2009)
hi
Alex (12:36:10 27/06/2009)
playing now?
Alex (12:37:55 27/06/2009)
hey, you there?
vitalic (21:31:57 30/06/2009)
Offline message (30.06.2009 21:04:15)
hey
Alex (21:32:03 30/06/2009)
yes
Alex (21:32:05 30/06/2009)
I'm here
vitalic (21:32:20 30/06/2009)
oh, ICQ is working now
Alex (21:32:30 30/06/2009)
I reinstalled it
vitalic (21:33:05 30/06/2009)
good job
vitalic (21:33:29 30/06/2009)
I just started with numOne, 4 minutes ago
vitalic (21:33:43 30/06/2009)
already at 131!
vitalic (21:34:01 30/06/2009)
let's do tomorrow at 10.00 and no delays please
vitalic (21:34:10 30/06/2009)
or come earlier—I'm always happy to play
Alex (21:35:07 30/06/2009)
can't promise no delays... I don't play from 10 PM, but after 10 PM... right now it's really stressful, the water was cut off—need to buy and heat water etc. plus reinstalled ICQ...
vitalic (21:35:31 30/06/2009)
I see, but will you definitely be there?
Alex (21:35:59 30/06/2009)
unless a car hits me—I'll be there :-D

The next day they finally started playing, put it on hold, BOTH promised to finish and went silent.
Neither of them reported over the following 4 days that they couldn't agree.

Pit, why are you writing lies in front of everyone now?
After the failed June 30, we had 2 successful sessions (July 1 restarted) and (July 2 played up to 117); after this game I was talking to you:
Pit (23:31:43 2/07/2009)
hi! put it on hold?
Alex (23:32:04 2/07/2009)
yeah, he can only play until 12—and we sat through until half past twelve
Alex (23:32:19 2/07/2009)
one or two more sessions depending on how it goes
Pit (23:33:23 2/07/2009)
there's still time

But then on the 3rd and 4th, I didn't understand why Vitalik relaxed and stopped playing, although the agreement remained in force and we planned to have sessions every day from 22:00 to 24:00 until we finished the game. But judging by the logs, it was specifically Vitalik who wasn't in a hurry.
On July 3 (written as 3.04), I didn't write to Vitalik because I didn't see him online, and that's when Vigo appeared and then Vitalik was found:

Alex (22:05:00 3/07/2009)
hi
Alex (22:05:08 3/07/2009)
seen Vitalik today?
Vigo (22:05:30 3/07/2009)
hey, nope, I just properly got online myself
Vigo (22:06:22 3/07/2009)
I'm on the line with him now
Alex (22:06:35 3/07/2009)
should I wait for him today?
Vigo (22:06:40 3/07/2009)
he's visiting, let's do tomorrow
Alex (22:06:46 3/07/2009)
ok
Vigo (22:06:52 3/07/2009)
what time can you?
Alex (22:07:02 3/07/2009)
as usual around 22
Vigo (22:07:10 3/07/2009)
ok
Alex (22:08:37 3/07/2009)
do you want to play now, Best?
Vigo (22:09:44 3/07/2009)
no way, staring at the screen until 5 AM again :( I'll just quickly run a game with someone without stress and go to sleep, let's try to do a Best on Sunday

On July 4, I got a refusal from Vitalik
Alex (21:50:52 4/07/2009)
hi... pass today?
vitalic (21:56:35 4/07/2009)
hi
vitalic (21:56:40 4/07/2009)
are you ready?
Alex (21:56:45 4/07/2009)
yes
Alex (21:58:03 4/07/2009)
you're loading now
vitalic (21:59:20 4/07/2009)
3 min
vitalic (22:11:39 4/07/2009)
let's pass!
vitalic (22:11:46 4/07/2009)
when will the same-suit be?!
Alex (22:11:52 4/07/2009)
ok I also think there's little left
vitalic (22:12:15 4/07/2009)
indeed
Alex (22:12:31 4/07/2009)
I tentatively agreed with Vigo for tomorrow, thought we'd finish today
Alex (22:12:49 4/07/2009)
but haven't specified the time yet... maybe he'll come by 23
On July 5, Vigo didn't show up for the game, and Vitalik was online—I thought I'd try to write, but he wasn't actually available... he replied only when it was too late...
Alex (19:14:42 5/07/2009)
hi
Alex (19:14:47 5/07/2009)
busy?
vitalic (23:44:43 5/07/2009)
hi
vitalic (23:44:55 5/07/2009)
uh-huh, thought you were with Vigo and didn't bother coming to the PC

... well then... in the end on July 3; July 4; July 5 I failed to play with either Vigo or Vitalik, although I had agreements with both.

The round deadline and two extensions expired, silence. Finally, on July 6, 0-0 was set.
No, the players didn't believe the decision was final. Vitalik - wants to finish or a draw. Alex - wants a technical win since he is leaving. They couldn't even agree on a draw themselves...

On July 6, I saw the draw for the last round and agreed with Mizrael during the day to play, having become disillusioned with Vitalik and Vigo's discipline

vitalic (21:01:50 6/07/2009)
Offline message (06.07.2009 18:52:47)
hi, battle today?
Alex (21:03:00 6/07/2009)
hi, agreed with Mizrael for today
vitalic (21:06:02 6/07/2009)
oki
vitalic (21:06:07 6/07/2009)
good luck in the game

Naturally, we finished in one session, thanks to Mizrael; last time in a team game with him we put it on hold and never finished, even though he promised me. But here he redeemed himself.

On July 7 I was ready, Vitalik couldn't make it, but at least we agreed for July 8

Alex (20:59:24 7/07/2009)
I'm here
vitalic (22:15:24 7/07/2009)
I just arrived
Alex (22:15:58 7/07/2009)
will you be there tomorrow?
vitalic (22:16:18 7/07/2009)
going for tickets in the evening, but I'll be back by 22:00
Alex (22:16:32 7/07/2009)
Ok

On July 8 I received another refusal.

Alex (21:37:13 8/07/2009)
hi
Alex (21:37:18 8/07/2009)
well, shall we continue?
vitalic (21:37:39 8/07/2009)
hi, I'm already fighting((

On July 9 I was at the computer for the last day before departure and weighing that there is a 90% chance this evening it would be impossible to finish the game with Vitalik, as well as play a game from scratch with Vigo, I still spent this evening on this Best (curse it). Specifically, I gathered all ICQ logs? Also packed the game saves with Vitalik into an archive and sent them to Pit, and then to vbn for backup; informed both via ICQ about this and waited for responses from both.

How long to wait? People can't play for a month. So what stopped you from playing? AK? Do I need to post kilometers of logs of my negotiations with BOTH players? According to the logs, actually, Vitalik should be given the technical win.

I am only at fault for not being able to play within the round deadline with Vitalik, although not without valid reasons, but at least I craved the struggle for this point, unlike you (Pit) and LeBron who gave up on fighting him entirely. Yes, you wrote about it and did so within the round deadline—GOOD JOB!!!
As for Vigo, you shouldn't have started all this fuss... he asked for his "0" points, just set them and don't worry; just as in your situation you asked to be given "0" points against Vitalik and I don't remember the organizer protesting... double standards are evident!
And forcing me to humiliate myself and bother Vigo just to get an answer like:
Vigo (22:09:44 3/07/2009)
no way, staring at the screen until 5 AM again :( I'll just quickly run a game with someone without stress and go to sleep, let's try to do a Best on Sunday

And naturally no one comes on Sunday—how many such Sundays am I supposed to fish for?
I'm actually interested in seeing those "kilometers of logs" where Vitalik deserves the technical win, as well as some "swings" regarding my disappearances from ICQ when Vigo offered me to play. For example, I received nothing from Vigo either before departure or upon return; and if it was meant that he didn't write because he didn't see me online, then from June 30 to July 9 I was online every day; on July 9 I was also there but in invisible mode. And despite all this, let me remind you that I was banned from the forum from June 30 to July 11, which in turn caused extra inconvenience and difficulties in negotiations etc. Since, for example, even before June 30, within the tournament deadline, Vitalik and I tried to agree via PMs, which turned out to be a very useless activity that essentially let us down.

Game Alex - Vigo.
Round 6. The draw appeared on June 25. Deadline - July 5. Vigo wrote on the forum that Alex's time doesn't suit him—he doesn't play at night.
I suggested they still try to agree, as Vigo sometimes plays at night and they could also coordinate on weekends. Alex wrote to me that they seemed to have agreed. And Vigo wrote on the forum that they connected. Then—silence... The round ended. No result. Again... In this case 0-0 was set with a suggestion to play by the end of Round 7 (until July 19). Silence. We wait more. Then I contact Alex asking him to agree; simultaneously Dirty is talking to Vigo, who also suggests playing with Alex. Alex immediately disappears from ICQ without an answer. Then Vigo asks to schedule a time, but Alex is already leaving... Now Alex demands a technical win over Vigo. It's not clear to me why? Because Vigo doesn't want to play at night? Or because Alex disappeared from ICQ during attempts to agree?

In principle, I have already commented on the situation with Vigo above (with logs), I will only answer a couple of egregious phrases from this paragraph.
First of all, I didn't lie to you; I agreed with Vigo for the last day of the deadline, and I showed up for the game; the game did not take place due to his absence—what was I supposed to write to you? I already warned you both before and after the round extension not to get involved in this, that you are interfering in a person's private matter.
Answer for your words: "I disappeared from ICQ during attempts to agree"—when exactly did Vigo try to find me? Also provide logs that can refute my logs and say that Vitalik specifically deserved the technical win more. I am more than convinced that many knew I would leave, and maybe you or someone else egged Vigo on to offer me a game after departure, or maybe on July 9 he specifically wanted to play? So that everyone I was supposed to play/finish with could pile on in the last day and let Alex_R deal with it!

AK made the corresponding decision.

Well, what can be said—if that's truly how it was, then my grievances to the AK representative (LeBron) are indeed groundless; I offer him my apologies, as well as to some other members of AK, although something here is not quite consistent or honest on your part.

So you, Pit, not only distorted facts and misinformed AK, but also set me up. Only I don't understand why—aside from this personal conclusion—you didn't provide those original logs and other info that I sent you? You are also a member of AK...
And why exactly did other members of AK not take an interest in the logs of all parties... by the way, as a backup, I sent them to another AK representative (vbn), specifically for the case where you, Pit, wouldn't receive them..

Basically, Alex is really annoying with his complaints. I know for sure that everyone who wanted to play, played. And if, for example, an opponent avoided a match with me, I could easily explain it and prove it to the tournament organizer. I honestly don't understand what else he wants besides arguments and scandals. Over the past month, this guy has done nothing but provoke, constantly complain, and argue on the forum. IMHO, this needs to stop.

I completely agree with the previous speaker.

Incomprehensible conclusions from incomprehensible evidence. I'm tired of all this. And these are the people we are supposed to see as the HeroesWorld team... This is a debatable question... Are they worthy?

Basically, Alex is annoying... this needs to stop.

I completely agree with the previous speaker :)

When arguments run out, flood and other messages of this type come into play.
In the season or in FoFan games, such disputes might look idiotic, but we are establishing the rules of the game, rules of communication, rules of judging... and what is more important then, if not to sort this all out and shape it for our future games/tournaments and the next generation of players. In principle, it is not so important whether I entered the final part from First or Third place — what is important is that there are currently many shortcomings in the rules, in the judging, and as can be seen, in the newly created AC body.
I am not demanding a medal or something impossible; in essence, a couple of digits in the final table would change, but it is necessary specifically to investigate, and how can the AC, judges, and organizers even work if they cannot even resolve such a simple situation... and moreover, unfortunately, it becomes obvious that there are failures at all stages, not without the fault of specific officials, including gross violations.
P.S. Even if you form a circle against me, I will only stop when I deem it necessary, and as for Wlk or Dirty or whoever else will try to provoke me or write banal phrases to hush this all up, as well as many other things — such a trick won't work. It is foolish to accuse me of provocations or ruining the Heroes atmosphere if I am precisely trying to establish some foundation, while you are engaged, at the very least, in bullying some players and covering for others, and it is especially funny (and at the same time sad) to see how you unite "by interest"
today against one, tomorrow against another, and the day after tomorrow against each other. Simply accomplices, moreover, from the side of the accused.
There are animals in nature with very similar behavior, vultures and jackals; I don't want to point fingers, but think about who you strive to be like.

Added after 16 minutes

Over the last month, this comrade has distinguished himself on the forum by nothing but provocations, constant complaints, and squabbles

Why so narrow? Why only for the last month?
I've been spinning in this for about two and a half years and periodically participate in conflicts because, like many others, I am dissatisfied with certain events, only I prefer not to keep quiet when the matter has a general Heroes scale.
Yes, I don't deny that I sometimes do things a bit clumsily, but I am not ashamed of my... and I try to point out mistakes to others, only what is the point of maintaining a fabricated atmosphere if there is no foundation or core in anything. Simply adopting the experience of more mature communities also doesn't always work, as everyone clearly sees that these foundations still need to be promoted with intelligence and in a digestible form, and we have had more than one unsuccessful experience of such borrowing. And as we see, we cannot create our own yet... so how long are we planning to spin in place?
Or does everyone think that we have ideal rules, ideal judges, organizers, and other bodies.
Or maybe someone else will say that our moderation is top-notch? (specifically in the HoMM3 section).
Are Wlk or Dirty or for example Lebron and Oelm truly representatives of all layers of forum users and in the face of the entire forum provoking that "it's so good that there are fewer green nicks because not all of them work for the common good". Although it's obvious that the faces are the same and it is only slightly strict but rule-compliant moderation that bothers you. Although moderators of other sections, administration representatives, and the majority of users do not complain. It's just a pity that there were a couple of incidents with the moderators and coordinators themselves, which of course slightly undermined their reputation and they are already afraid to radically resolve acute moments, although in general the team is very good, slightly uncoordinated, lacking a group leader, and in general, mostly soulful people gathered there, and if any strong mod appeared — the jackals immediately devoured him or forced him to leave through various setups and provocations, since everything for the mods is based on enthusiasm. In my case, for example, there is a similar example... I am sure it was a planned action, I even know which way the wind blows. Who was the initiator and who executed it (among the moderators). I can raise this issue as well if I decide to become a mod for the 3s again. Only is it worth becoming a moderator where they only require you to fill in tables and clean up trash after those who intentionally throw it without thinking and without caring about the cleanliness of the forum. Moreover, these are not unskilled newcomers, but veterans who are enraged that they are prevented from constantly performing clownery.
How many "first posts" have you corrected since my departure? Did you continue to make tables for every Best tour and other tournaments? Did you fill in the "Current Tournaments Table" and much more... and I won't even mention how many insults, provocations, and simply clumsy posts there are. In about 2 weeks, I performed around 600 moderations, from a single character to tables, moving some threads, recording violations. By the way, look at the moderation statistics now or before me... in about half a year, mods accumulated 600 edits and mostly this was, of course, vbn.
P.S. And I think it will be useful to clarify a bit that different people exist; there are those who have this foundation and can easily adapt to any system and even mark loopholes for themselves, and there are people who engage in destructive activity and clownery, so to speak, for the public and in cases of promoting something nasty. Both listed types exceed the activity of the main mass of forum users, who either quietly go with the flow or keep to themselves. It is precisely they who need the improvement of the system, only they are inactive by nature, and those who are most active often pull the general cart into a swamp that is pleasant only to them.

I've been involved in this for about two and a half years and periodically participate in conflicts because I'm not happy with some events, like many others, but I prefer not to stay silent when the issue has a broad, community-wide impact.

Where are these many others? Let at least someone else speak up.

This is an interesting discussion. When none of the "accused" are present, they can't defend themselves. Where do these new arguments come from? Or do you want everyone to start doing things your way? To call a fact something else, to say the same thing in different words, and get a "new" fact, a new argument? What's the point of going over it all again and again? You say that the arguments run out... But why then do you bring up Dima and Petya as examples and reproach them for it? What does that have to do with anything? I'm curious why you recused yourself from the Arbitration Committee (AK). You had the opportunity to be with them and resolve this issue and act as an authorized person, whom you constantly accuse. You refused, and now you're talking about shortcomings, but now it's just words, nothing more... moreover, it's unlikely that anyone will take them seriously.

Added after 55 seconds
Rebel center, huh...

Where are all these other people? Let at least someone else speak up.

Those who were silent before will remain silent now, and those who were outraged have left the forum, either completely or moved to another forum.
The authorities of past seasons are no longer relevant, and the new ones, for some reason, can't seem to make up their minds. And it's understandable, because no one wants to take responsibility.
to SpiriTT, I replied to you in ICQ, I think it was quite comprehensive.

Added after 55 seconds
[/U]The Rebel Center, seriously...

And the Partisans...

You can talk a lot about your own righteousness and the mistakes of others, about some flaws and shortcomings. But is it worth mentioning if the attitude towards your opponent and just a person is reduced to the level of a microbe...?
It's time to take measures regarding the attitude, because morality also plays a big role :D

Those who were silent before will remain silent now, and those who complained have left the forum, either completely or moved to another forum.
The authorities from previous seasons are no longer relevant, and the new ones, for some reason, can't seem to make up their minds. And that's understandable; no one wants to take responsibility.

In my opinion, no one except you is expressing serious complaints or making demands to play at night. If people can't manage, they'll rather acknowledge defeat than stress out the tournament organizers and members of the Tournament Committee.