HeroesWorld
  • Log in
  • Create account
  • Mode
    Interface scale

Posts from Discussion about Heroes I.

General
5.0 (1 rating)
User Avatar
Offline AlexSpl
Registered:
Posts: 734
#170
Auto-translated
The second time, we simply defeat him with 30 peasants.
That's correct: if the enemy hero doesn't gain a level, then the "level-up-and-beat" strategy fails. A necessary condition for the "level-up-and-beat" strategy: in the previous battle, the companion hero gains at least one level.

So, in the given scenario: if you flee in the first round, when the dragons haven't killed the peasants yet, the "level-up-and-beat" strategy fails. If you flee in the second and subsequent rounds, everything is fine.
0
⚖️
0
In reply to AlexSpl
User Avatar
Offline VDV_forever
Registered:
Posts: 1,726
#171
Auto-translated
AlexSpl
As our tests have shown, in some cases, a 100% repetition of the battle is possible after fleeing. A striking example is the task from Fireball. In these cases, the first battle of any session can be anything, but starting with the second, the battle map repeats again and again and does not depend on the session number!

So, your Hero left the battlefield, and you reloaded. What are the conditions for the battle to repeat 100% after loading?

It turns out that it is both simple and strange at the same time:

If the enemy hero gains one or more experience levels in the battle from which your hero fled, then all battles, starting with the second, will become constantly repeating battles (CRB, VDV_forever).

So, in the task we are considering, Agar has level 8 (10000 xp). If he does not manage to kill 1000 xp to advance to level 9, then there will be no CRB! If he still gets his level 9, then the CRB will be 100%! Moreover, the type of CRB depends on how many levels the enemy hero gains in the battle.

Therefore, any battle with a hero can be divided into several parts:
1) the enemy hero did not kill enough creatures to advance to the next level;
there will be no CRB.

2) the enemy hero killed enough creatures to advance to the next level;
the CRB will be 100%.

3) the enemy hero killed enough creatures to jump up several levels at once;
the CRB will be 100%, although its type will depend on the number of levels gained.

In a battle with neutrals, obviously, there can be no talk of a CRB.

That's the deal.

Today, there was a little time, and I also tested it. Moreover, I created a map on which there were 3 artifacts that increased morale and 3 artifacts that increased luck.
I decided to first check the battle when attacking a castle.
I took all 6 artifacts, morale and luck appeared in a random order, and both for the computer and for me, all 10 times in one session (CRB was not recorded even once)!:(
Then, I repeated it with 4 artifacts and with 3, the result was also not very optimistic.:(
I sat there thinking, why and how this happens, where to look for the roots of the CRB!?
In the end, I built all the buildings for the computer, it didn't help either, I didn't have enough nerves for more today…:smile35:
Where is the pattern???
And then our AlexSPl, it turns out, has already figured everything out! But how? Did they come to these conclusions analytically and confirm them in practice?
Mega respect!:smile13:

P.S. Level 8 (9000 xp), level 9 (11000 xp) respectively 2000 xp.;)
P.S.S. And with neutrals (or with a computer hero), in a battle where a hero controlled by a person jumps to a level, have you tested for CRB? That is, can it be argued that the CRB does not depend on the level gained by the hero controlled by the player during the battle!?

If this is the case, then it's just awful... the computer is cheating again! Why did the developers do this, embedding an illogical algorithm? That is, the computer must level up, killing our monsters, so that there is a CRB!

Sincerely, VDV_forever
Единый справочник по Героям Меча и Магии

ТУРНИРЫ ПО ГЕРОЯМ 1!:smile13:
1
⚖️
0
User Avatar
Offline AlexSpl
Registered:
Posts: 734
#172
Auto-translated
P.S. Level 8 (9000 xp), level 9 (11000 xp) respectively, 2000 xp.
P.S.S. And have you tested this on a single-player battle, with neutral creatures (or a computer-controlled hero), where a hero controlled by a player levels up during the battle? In other words, can we say that the experience gained by the player-controlled hero during the battle does not affect the probability of a level-up?
1) Agar is level 8, but has 10000 xp.
2) Most likely, if the battle is over and our hero gains at least one level, then - yes.
But how? Did you arrive at these conclusions analytically and confirm them through practical testing?
Something like that :)
If this is the case, then it's really unfair... the computer is cheating again! Why did the developers do this, implementing an illogical algorithm? i.e., the computer should level up, killing our monsters, so that the probability of a level-up is higher!
I assume that the developers didn't care about the probability of a level-up at that time :)
0
⚖️
0
In reply to AlexSpl
User Avatar
Offline VDV_forever
Registered:
Posts: 1,726
#173
Auto-translated
Experiment to study the occurrence of morale and luck on a specific example (attacking a Castle with a hero in the garrison) through practical means.

Since the realistic occurrence of luck for peasants and permanent passive bonuses (PPB) in task #3 from Fireball was confirmed experimentally, there arose a need for further verification of the occurrence of morale and luck for various types of battles, including a battle similar to task #3.

Therefore, it was decided to select such a battle (in particular, I artificially created a map for this purpose in the map editor) and conduct a similar study, with simple and deliberately "stupid" actions by the player.

It should also be noted that during the experiment, it was found that PPB will not be formed if we load different saves in one session!

That is, in order for PPB to form, it is mandatory to load the same save and conduct the same battle according to a specific algorithm. Thus, by loading the same save and, during the battle, when the enemy hero levels up, PPB will form on the 2nd attempt and will invariably repeat from battle to battle with 100% probability!

Purpose of the experiment: Confirmation of previous results on a new example, confirmation of AlexSPl's words regarding PPB when the computer-controlled hero levels up.

Experiment: 5 sessions were conducted, with 5 battle attempts in each.

Description: This example examines 2 rounds of the aforementioned PPB (see also 4 explanatory pictures of the battle).

Round 1
1) Gargoyles – Attack archers (die in retaliation);
2) Druids – Attack archers;
3) Djinns – Attack peasants (die);
4) Computer-controlled swordsmen die from the djinn's retaliation;
5) Centaurs – Attack archers;
6) Elves – Attack archers with luck on the 2nd shot!

Round 2
1) Druids – Attack archers;
3) Djinns – Attack spearmen (die);
4) Centaurs – Attack archers with luck!
5) Elves – Attack archers with luck on the 1st shot!, Morale, attack archers with luck on the 1st shot!
6) Djinns, in retaliation, hit archers with luck!
Note – we go back to the beginning of round 3, on the druids' turn.

The occurrence of morale and luck is recorded and entered into the table below in the corresponding columns:

The following abbreviations are used in the table:

nrvs – half-destroyed upper tower;
nrns – half-destroyed lower tower;
U – luck;
M – morale;
G – gargoyles;
L – archers;
Ken. – centaurs;
D – druids;
E – elves;
Djin – djinn;
Swords. – swordsmen;

As can be seen from the table, all the initial experiments have a random character ("random battles" - RB), PPB is formed with 100% probability starting from the 2nd attempt of each session.

Conclusion:

PPB in Heroes 1 can be obtained when playing against computer-controlled heroes under the following conditions:

- The computer-controlled hero must level up at least once during the battle;
- During the battle, strictly defined actions must be performed, i.e., from save to save, the player's actions must be the same;
- It is necessary to load the same save from which the battle takes place;
- Starting from the 2nd attempt, there will be 100% PPB.

P.S. Morale and luck in battle in Heroes 1 do not depend on Damage. However, at the same time, PPB can be judged by Damage.

P.S.S. Short experiments regarding the dependence of the level of the hero under the player's control, obtained during the battle (on the same example), showed that PPB does not depend on the hero's level (leveling up during the battle)! Accordingly, it is not possible to create PPB on monsters. Thus, I confirm the words of the respected AlexSPl.

Sincerely, VDV_forever
Attachments 6
6 files attached • Total size: 609.7 KB
Единый справочник по Героям Меча и Магии

ТУРНИРЫ ПО ГЕРОЯМ 1!:smile13:
3
⚖️
0
User Avatar
Offline AlexSpl
Registered:
Posts: 734
#174
Auto-translated
P.S. In Heroes 1, morale and luck do not depend on damage.

I will try to convince you otherwise. There will be a lot of math :) The dependence is not direct, of course. All of the above values depend directly only on R: M(R), L(R), D(R). But morale and luck indirectly depend on Damage D(R): M(D(R)), L(D(R)).
Therefore, it is not possible to apply PPB (Points Per Battle) to monsters.
I believe that it is only possible if the hero gains at least one level and the battle is played to the end.
1
⚖️
0
User Avatar
Offline Thundax
Registered:
Posts: 364
#175
Auto-translated
I apologize for interrupting your conversation again. I just checked my final save in "The Restoration of Erathia" where Arie storms a castle without a hero and gains a level. I played sub-optimally to prolong the battle. The first 3 times, the battle wouldn't repeat for some reason. Then, from the 4th to the 7th attempt, everything (monster damage, wall damage, wall penetration) started repeating exactly. Although I made absolutely identical moves in all 7 cases. Yes, everything is very complex in Heroes of Might and Magic I, especially in terms of functions.
1
⚖️
0
User Avatar
Offline AlexSpl
Registered:
Posts: 734
#176
Auto-translated
Although I made absolutely identical moves in all 7 cases.
It's not crucial. You can make any moves. The main thing is that the hero gains a level.
The first 3 times, the battle didn't seem to want to repeat. Then, from the 4th to the 7th time, everything (damage to monsters, damage from the wall, wall penetration) started to repeat exactly.
In order to discuss this, we need specific data.
1
⚖️
0
User Avatar
Offline Thundax
Registered:
Posts: 364
#177
Auto-translated
Specific data: Warlock hero, 0-0-7-3 (amulet), 2500 experience points, 29 gargoyles, and 20 griffins against a sorceress castle (14 dwarves, 3 elves, and 13 sprites, positioned on top). He consistently attacked the sprites with gargoyles, while the wall always fired at the griffins, dealing 39 damage each time. The elves attacked the gargoyles and died, the dwarves killed 2 gargoyles, and the griffins simply couldn't reach the dwarves, just flying over to the castle, and so on. Yes, it doesn't really matter which save file is used; most likely, with any save, upon reaching a level at the end of the battle, our hero, while storming the castle without a hero, will be able to achieve consistency. Most likely, the program needs to receive 2 confirmations of the consistency of level gain + something else, in order to then start forming a closed loop.
Oops, I'm already confused...
0
⚖️
0
In reply to Thundax
User Avatar
Offline VDV_forever
Registered:
Posts: 1,726
#178
Auto-translated
Ergon
I apologize for interrupting your conversation again.
On the contrary, it is welcome;) .
Ergon

I just checked my final save in Heroes of Might and Magic, where Arie storms a Castle without a hero and gains a level. I played sub-optimally to prolong the battle. The first 3 times, the battle somehow didn't want to repeat. Then, from the 4th to the 7th time, absolutely everything (monster damage, wall damage, wall penetration) started to repeat exactly. Although I made absolutely the same moves in all 7 cases.
I would like to take a look at the save, + a detailed description of your actions in it.;) If it's not too much trouble, pack the save into a zip format and post it along with a description of the battle in this thread, and we will study it together;)
Ergon

Yes, everything is very complicated in Heroes of Might and Magic 1, especially in the functions.
We'll figure it out:smile02:
Added 7 minutes ago
AlexSpl
It's not essential. You can make any moves. The main thing is that the hero gains a level.
It is essential! If you break the algorithm of actions, then the morale and luck may not drop during the battle for the monster to which these components were dropped!
AlexSpl

In order to be able to talk about something, we need specific data.
100%:smile01:
P.S. Tomorrow I will try to study the situation in the hero - neutral battle.;)

Sincerely, VDV_forever
Единый справочник по Героям Меча и Магии

ТУРНИРЫ ПО ГЕРОЯМ 1!:smile13:
1
⚖️
0
User Avatar
Offline Thundax
Registered:
Posts: 364
#179
Auto-translated
It never worked properly in full mode. Now, the save game failed again, repeating itself around the 4th time, but I made the first incorrect move. Then I exited the game and re-entered – the first time it was different, but then it repeated again, just like yesterday. In general, here's how the repetition starts: 1. With the first move, the gargoyles attack the sprites, positioning themselves opposite the elves. The wall removes 39 hit points from the griffins, and the elves attack and kill the gargoyles. The griffins fly to the castle and position themselves next to the gargoyles. The dwarves kill 2 gargoyles. 2. The wall is broken through. With the gargoyles, we position ourselves opposite the dwarves and attack, killing 2 more gargoyles. The griffins attack the dwarves, the wall kills 2 griffins, and the dwarves attack the griffins, killing one more. There are 4 dwarves remaining. 3. With the gargoyles, we attack the dwarves, leaving 1, and it kills a gargoyle. Then, with the griffins, we kill the dwarf. The losses are huge: 5 gargoyles and 4 griffins. The hero levels up, and the game ends.
Attachments 1
1 file attached • Total size: 75.8 KB
1
⚖️
0
User Avatar
Offline AlexSpl
Registered:
Posts: 734
#180
Auto-translated
2Ergon: You can play the first battle in a session however you like. The main thing is to win and gain a level. Starting with the second battle, it will be a

predetermined battle pattern (PBP), just remember to finish each battle (don't run away!).

Here's an example of a PBP:
0. The lower wall is broken in half.
1. Cast Lightning on the Gnomes (the probability of magic resistance is 0 for this class of PBP, 6 die).
2. Gargoyles attack the Fairies (90 damage, all are killed).
3. Archers attack the Griffins (40 damage, 1 Griffin dies).
4. Griffins - skip turn.
5. Gnomes attack the Gargoyles (14 damage, 1 dies).
6. Gargoyles attack the Gnomes (60 damage, 3 die).
7. Griffins finish off the Gnomes.

In general, the PBP depends on the player's actions, but no matter how you play, you will always remain within the same class of PBP. That is,

the actions are fixed - the damage is fixed, etc. (100% repeatability, the main thing is to provide a description).

I suggest conducting the following experiment:
Play the first battle on this save however you want (just don't lose, please lol).
Play the second battle as I described.
Then play as many battles as you like, however you like (you can even lose or run away).
When you get bored, repeat the battle according to my description again (but win the battle immediately before that). I think you will repeat it 100%.

2VDV_forever: In my opinion, everything is clear: if R is fixed after the battle (for example, by leveling up), then it will be a PBP.
1
⚖️
0
In reply to AlexSpl
User Avatar
Offline VDV_forever
Registered:
Posts: 1,726
#181
Auto-translated
Experiment on studying permanent power bonuses (PPB) using a specific example
(hero attacking neutral creatures) through practical means.


Experiment Goal: To check the occurrence of PPB when attacking neutral creatures, using different tactics in the same battle, and after increasing the hero's level after its completion.

Experiment: 2 experiments were conducted, with 5 sessions and 5 battle attempts each. Both experiments were conducted in the same battle, but with different player actions!

Description: This example considers the complete end of the battle without the hero fleeing (see also 4 explanatory diagrams).

Experiment 1

PPB

Round 1
1) Djinns – Kill the 1st stack of Goblins;
2) Centaurs – Attack the 2nd stack of Goblins;
3) Elves – Attack the 2nd stack of Goblins;
4) In the counterattack from the Djinns, the 2nd stack of Goblins dies.

Round 2
1) Djinns – Kill the 3rd stack of Goblins (with luck)!;
2) Centaurs – Attack the 4th stack of Goblins;
3) Elves – Attack the 4th stack of Goblins;

Round 3
1) Djinns – Kill the 4th stack of Goblins;
2) Centaurs – Attack the 5th stack of Goblins;
3) Elves – Attack the 5th stack of Goblins;

Round 4
1) Djinns – Kill the 5th stack of Goblins;

Experiment 2

PPB 1

Round 1
1) Djinns – Kill the 5th stack of Goblins;
2) Centaurs – Attack the 4th stack of Goblins;
3) Elves – Attack the 4th stack of Goblins;
4) In the counterattack from the Djinns, the 3rd stack of Goblins dies.

Round 2
1) Djinns – Kill the 4th stack of Goblins;
2) Centaurs – Attack the 2nd stack of Goblins (with luck);
3) Elves – Attack the 2nd stack of Goblins;

Round 3
1) Djinns – Kill the 2nd stack of Goblins; Moral!!!
2) Djinns – Kill the 1st stack of Goblins

PPB 2

Round 1
1) Djinns – Kill the 5th stack of Goblins;
2) Centaurs – Attack the 4th stack of Goblins (with luck)!;
3) Elves – Attack the 4th stack of Goblins (with luck on the 2nd shot);
4) In the counterattack from the Djinns, the 3rd stack of Goblins dies.

Round 2
1) Djinns – Kill the 4th stack of Goblins!;
2) Centaurs – Attack the 2nd stack of Goblins;
3) Elves – Attack the 2nd stack of Goblins;

Round 3
1) Djinns – Kill the 2nd stack of Goblins;
2) Centaurs – Attack the 1st stack of Goblins;
3) Elves – Attack the 1st stack of Goblins;
4) In the counterattack from the Djinns, the 1st stack of Goblins dies.

Note – after defeating the Goblins, Baruk receives:
attack +1, magic power +1

The occurrence of morale and luck is recorded and entered into the table (for "PPB") provided below in the corresponding columns:

The following abbreviations are used in the tables:
U – luck;
M – morale;
G – Goblins;
K – Centaurs;
E – Elves;
D – Djinns;

As can be seen from the tables, all the first experiments have a random character ("PPB battles" - PPB), PPB is formed with 100% probability starting from the 2nd experiment of each session in the first experiment and exactly with 50% probability after the 2nd experiment, PPB1 and PPB2 are formed sequentially in the second experiment!

Conclusions:

1) PPB with neutral creatures will be formed after 1 attempt (try) of any battle and will work 100%, only when the hero controlled by the player gains a level (whether during the battle or after its completion).

2) It turns out that PPB has some coefficient, i.e., in the same battle, several PPBs can be formed with absolutely identical actions of the player, which will definitely alternate in a strict sequence, see experiment No. 2!!!:smile13:

3) Obviously, certain actions of the player will determine the occurrence of morale and luck. When determining PPB, these components remain unchanged throughout the battle. This rule applies to any PPB.

Remaining questions:

- how many maps can be formed when "PPB" occurs in the first attempt (less than 1000, but how many)?
- how many PPBs can be formed in one battle with the same actions of the player?

P.S. The save from the respected Ergon, although not very clear (no morale and luck are displayed), but based on the Damage, it is also possible to talk about PPB starting from the 2nd attempt of any session. (I checked in the 1st session, I performed 5 repetitions, only 1 PPB occurs in all cases 100%). Apparently, you had a violation of the sequence of actions from round to round, which is why you did not get PPB! This sequence also depends on the angle at which the attack on the monster is carried out!

P.S.S. Damn, I left the save at work, I'll post it on Monday.:o

Figures 2-1…2-4 illustrate experiment No. 1; figures 3-1…3-3 illustrate experiment No. 2 (PPB No. 1).

That's the situation. We are discovering more and more every day. We need to dig deeper.:p

Sincerely, VDV_forever
Attachments 9
9 files attached • Total size: 885.5 KB
Единый справочник по Героям Меча и Магии

ТУРНИРЫ ПО ГЕРОЯМ 1!:smile13:
2
⚖️
0
In reply to AlexSpl
User Avatar
Offline VDV_forever
Registered:
Posts: 1,726
#182
Auto-translated
AlexSpl

2VDV_forever: In my opinion, everything is clear: if R is fixed after the battle (for example, after leveling up), then a permanent power boost (PPB) will occur.

Most likely, but... we don't have a check for the case when our hero attacks a computer-controlled hero, whether in a castle or in the wilderness, and our hero gains a level, but the computer-controlled hero does not!

That is, will a PPB be formed if, during a battle with a computer-controlled hero, our hero gains a level, but the computer-controlled hero does not?:) Most likely it will, but I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't! Honestly, we're rushing to make final conclusions again.;)

P.S. The first game is a unique product, and with each playthrough, I like it more and more:smile02:

Sincerely, VDV_forever
Единый справочник по Героям Меча и Магии

ТУРНИРЫ ПО ГЕРОЯМ 1!:smile13:
1
⚖️
0
User Avatar
Offline Thundax
Registered:
Posts: 364
#183
Auto-translated
AlexSpl
Yes, your build order was repeated exactly. It's clear that it's different from mine, since I didn't use magic. I wonder if it's possible to include dwarf resistance to spells in the build order. It's clear that the spell needs to be applied not immediately, perhaps not even on the first turn, and you might have to move your armies in a non-standard way. The idea is that if you can make the morale permanent, you can also make the dwarf resistance permanent.
It would be great to describe all these conclusions about the build order in a manual, but with fewer functions and more explanations.
1
⚖️
0
In reply to Thundax
User Avatar
Offline VDV_forever
Registered:
Posts: 1,726
#184
Auto-translated
Ergon

The idea is that if you can make the morale permanent, you can also make the dwarves' resistance permanent.
I doubt it, although… Try using the 1st task from Nzol.
By the way, it's a good idea to test the PPB on the 1st task from Nzol, as it has special abilities for cyclopses. I remember I only completed this task twice, and now that we are close to solving the PPB, maybe this task can also be completed quickly:D, and if not, I'll delete the tasks that are won on "WB"! :smile48:
Ergon

It would be great to describe all these conclusions about PPB in a reference guide, but with fewer functions and more explanations.

We will definitely write it as soon as we understand all the subtleties and nuances ourselves.;)

Thank you for your interest in this matter!

Sincerely, VDV_forever
Единый справочник по Героям Меча и Магии

ТУРНИРЫ ПО ГЕРОЯМ 1!:smile13:
1
⚖️
0