Amendment to section 5.2.1 of the Hv rules (regarding quick-cast spells). — Polls — Page 6

Registered: 10/16/2007

Posts: 3,371

#81 6/6/2009 12:14 PM UTC

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My view of the situation:

Suggestions:

Replace point 5.2 with:

The heroes Solmyr, Demyr, Aislin, and Tant (Raise Dead) can use their respective spells against opponents in the following cases:
a) If the corresponding level of the Guild of Mages (GoM) has been built in any of the controlled Castles. If the required level of the GoM is not present in these Castles, then it is necessary to completely build all levels of the GoM in any two Castles that you own. Or capture an opponent's Castle with the required GoM already built (it doesn't matter how long the captured Castle remains under your control). It is not necessary to visit this Castle with a hero.
b) Find and visit a "sanctuary of magical thought" with the required magic.
c) If any of your heroes are given the corresponding spell in the Pandora's Box, pyramid, after visiting a scholar, or in a spellbook.
Against neutral monsters, as well as against the computer (if it is present on the map), Solmyr, Demyr, Aislin, and Tant can use their respective spells without the above restrictions. It is allowed to transfer level 4 spells to other heroes. Using spells transferred from Solmyr, Demyr, Aislin, and Tant without building the GoM against a human player is not allowed.

BUT! It is allowed to play Solmyr, Demyr, and Aislin as STARTING heroes WITHOUT RESTRICTIONS.

In essence: as before, Solmyr, Demyr, and Aislin are allowed. The other harmless level 4 magic specialists have been freed. Also, it was decided to allow this trio to manifest themselves as starting heroes. (The same statistics for the tower may be improved). There will be no strong, suicidal "losers." And if you choose mages as starting heroes, then this is still a certain risk). That's it. Criticize.

Сейчас балуюсь этим https://vcmi.eu/download/
За то что нейтралы не бегают за единичкой, для меня это уже стоит того

Registered: 8/18/2008

Posts: 1,107

#82 6/6/2009 12:39 PM UTC

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I request that you provide links from the same season to the so-called "mage-killers" as ГГ; it is more accurate to call them mage-losers. Solmir can be easily countered by mass haste, such that he won't even be able to land a single chain strike. Regarding the use of specialists as kamikazes: first, the hit-and-run rule was designed for this and is in effect; second, it is rarely justified to lose a leveled hero with artifacts just so they can cast magic once. I believe imposing limits on the number of same-magic specialists released from the tavern is not advisable. A high-level hero has good tavern guards. One should not forget the two main disadvantages of mages: their lack of mobility and helplessness in cons and Dragon Utopia. It is very difficult to achieve a good pace with them. Regarding unbanning Mülich, a separate thread needs to be created for that, but personally, back when I played hot-seat without rules or restrictions, I considered him one of the most effective, especially at the start. Therefore, I am against it. Castle has many good starting heroes to choose from: Valeska, Orrin, Turris, Christian.

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In reply to Dirty_Player

Registered: 11/15/2008

Posts: 2,544

#83 6/6/2009 12:59 PM UTC

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Dirty_Player

I have a different suggestion. We could allow the use of spells from assassin mages only after they reach level 7. (We need to figure out the details regarding heroes from the dungeon). And limiting it only to the starting hero isn't entirely correct. What if I start with a Haven hero and want to switch to a Dungeon hero?

Oelm

No way. If we're going to introduce chaos, let's do it for everyone! Sneaky, kamikaze mages are awesome. If I'm playing as a weak Dungeon faction and Deemer shows up, I'll definitely try to level him up (let's say to level 7 :D). Double mana, and let's go.

DirtyPlayer, as you can see, it's easier to criticize an idea than to come up with one. And I'll add some criticism to your suggestion: what if there's a need to interact with an opponent, but the starting mage hasn't had time to level up to level 7? I don't think that's such a rare situation.

In reply to bRitvo4kA

Registered: 9/26/2008

Posts: 2,556

#84 6/6/2009 1:03 PM UTC

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Now, let's consider whether Aislinn and Dimera are worth taking as starting heroes. With Solmyr, the option is still somewhat viable. Secondly, if the goal is to simplify the rules, where is the simplification here?

In reply to Oelm

Registered: 11/15/2008

Posts: 2,544

#85 6/6/2009 1:18 PM UTC

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Oelm

Now, let's consider whether Aislinn and Dimera are worth taking as starting heroes. Solmyr is a slightly better option. Secondly, if the goal is to simplify the rules, where is the simplification here?

At least it will give people a reason to think before taking a starting mage hero; there's also Jedid-Alamar, for example, and one can certainly argue about the meteor shooters. It's still not very good that 95-99% of the starting heroes are warriors; it's rightly said that mages need to be brought back into the game, and that they aren't that strong even without restrictions. However, something needs to be done about the kamikaze scouts.

In reply to Wlk777

Registered: 4/29/2007

Posts: 11,030

#86 6/6/2009 1:48 PM UTC

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I don't believe anyone will start with Alamar, Jeddite, or Deemer when Shakti is available, who can start with 120 troglodytes. Solmyr is still a viable option, but I wouldn't trade Nellu for anyone. Maybe Oelm will start playing as Xiron? :D :D :D

DiryPlayer, as you can see, it's easier to criticize an idea than to come up with one. And I'll add some criticism to your suggestion: what if there's a need to interact with an opponent, but the starting mage hasn't had time to level up to level 7? It's not such a rare situation, in my opinion...

Yes, I see, but that's because everything has already been thought out and tested over the years, and everyone is happy with it. Well, the number 7 is just a convention; it can be made level 5. But I think that level 7 is the average level for a hero by day 117, so that's why I made that suggestion. I think it's a good idea. Maybe someone will be motivated to level up two heroes at once. :)

In reply to Dirty_Player

Registered: 11/15/2008

Posts: 2,544

#87 6/6/2009 2:02 PM UTC

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Dirty_Player

I don't believe anyone will start with Alamar, Jeddite, or Deemer when there's Shakti, who can start with 120 troglodytes.

Or maybe even with 30+ ;) Whether I believe it or not is one thing, but the choice should be, in my opinion. =[br][/br]

Dirty_Player

Yes, I see, but that's because everything has already been invented and tested over the years, and everyone is happy with it.

As can be seen from the content of the topic and the results of the poll on this topic, everything doesn't suit everyone, as has already been said, the rules were developed a long time ago, and some of their points are morally outdated due to the changed level and content of the games.

In reply to Wlk777

Registered: 6/12/2007

Posts: 1,805

#88 6/6/2009 2:11 PM UTC

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If we can agree not to use Kamikaze Mages, then it's acceptable.

С истиной где-то рядом...

Лето 2010.

In reply to Дубровин Павел

Registered: 3/18/2008

Posts: 3,093

#89 6/6/2009 2:29 PM UTC

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Dubrovin Pavel

If we can agree not to use Kamikaze Mages, then it's acceptable.

Agreeing on that is a matter of fair play, but what should be written in the rules?
Kostya suggested a very good alternative - 7 levels and crush the opponent, with some tricks, it can work even without that...
Leveling up Dima to level 7 with only one fountain on the respawn point is quite a gamble...
Everything depends on the circumstances, but Gunnar and the Miner look more advantageous.

Даже если вас съели - у вас два выхода:smile19:

Зима 2011-12.

In reply to Javdet

Registered: 11/15/2008

Posts: 2,544

#90 6/6/2009 3:45 PM UTC

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Javdet

Kostya suggested a very effective alternative – 7 lives and crush the opponent; with neutral creatures, it’s possible even without them...

Weak defense against kamikaze attacks:confused:

In reply to Javdet

Registered: 2/7/2007

Posts: 1,766

#91 6/6/2009 3:57 PM UTC

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I voted to repeal clause 5.2.1 (i.e., to unban all mages). Mülich is still overpowered. I had some doubts, but after rereading the posts from the last two days, I managed to sort out the information. The minimum level of 7 for the "Kamikaze" spell doesn't appeal to me personally (and it doesn't matter if the number is 7, 2, or 15). I also don't like the idea of complete freedom for mages, only as a starting option. I suggest conducting an experiment during the summer season. By default, play with "complete mage freedom," but if one of the players disagrees, play according to the old rules. In principle, it's easier in a seasonal game – if you don't want to, don't play. Well, it's clear that based on the results, we can more reliably analyze the situation and then finally resolve this issue in the rules. P.S. By the way, I just thought, no one would stop you from taking Solmyr, also a mage-kamikaze, as a starting hero, or digging him up in the tavern and meeting fire with fire! In the end, I think this will bring magic back into the game. And if the role of mages increases, the most promising thing is that new pairs of starting castles will appear... for example, Dungeon against Tower (you rarely see reports about this).

In reply to Alex_R

Registered: 9/26/2008

Posts: 2,556

#92 6/6/2009 7:13 PM UTC

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Well, let's do an experiment for those who want to play without restrictions (there are many of them).

I have already clearly stated my opinion. Plus, playing skillfully with two heroes is a certain art. Therefore, for most players, canceling this rule will not make much difference (it sounds arrogant, but I judge this at least by the fact that even with pre-set heroes, difficulties arise on the second map above difficulty level two). But losing to a strong opponent just because Solmyr happened to be available is not very pleasant. The same Utopias, Conservatories, and Hives still need to be explored and taken with acceptable losses. And here, it's just a free bonus. An example from my last game: on day 115, I freed a tenth-level hero from prison - Fiura (see the template). I already had excellent prospects. But what if Solmyr was there without restrictions?:D :D
Is it difficult for mages to take Conservatories and Utopias? Not at all, you just need to have a couple of good spells - Blind, Light Bolt, Resurrection/Summon Elementals (for Utopias). For those interested in how to do this, you can look at DS_Vasi's saves with Lebron, they are posted on the website. There, Kirra takes a level 3 Conservatory with magic (Light Bolt) on the second week, without any archers at all, just with wood and some other minor units.

Registered: 8/18/2008

Posts: 1,107

#93 6/6/2009 8:58 PM UTC

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Just imagine, you decided to play as Solmir, for example. Anyone who has tried playing mages without restrictions will tell you how much harder it is to deal with neutrals. But then you want to take the Conclave. At the cost of huge losses and spending all your mana on Light Bolt to wipe out griffins, you now have to go back to replenish mana, losing momentum. Then you want to take Dragon Utopia, but there is no resurrection or element summoning. If by some miracle—there's no other way to put it—you make it out of Dragon Utopia alive (don't even dream about armor or attack skills; the chances of getting them are negligible), this is exactly where Tazik comes in, having cleared Dragon Utopia with the Cloak of Renunciation or the red orb, and you realize that you lost this game simply because you played as Solmir. And playing with 2 ГГ—as you correctly said—is already an art, because it involves splitting troops, experience, artifacts, and often battles are fought on the edge, where a slight lack of power leads to significant losses and, consequently, loss of momentum

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In reply to bRitvo4kA

Registered: 2/7/2007

Posts: 1,766

#94 6/6/2009 10:40 PM UTC

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bRitvo4kA

Playing with 2 main heroes is indeed an art, because it involves dividing troops, experience, and artifacts, and often battles take place on a razor's edge, where even a slight lack of power can lead to significant losses and, consequently, a loss of momentum.

But even here, there are hidden challenges.
With Dungeon, you can play with a Shaker and a Dimmer simultaneously (if the latter has no restrictions), and I don't think it requires much skill; one focuses on trolls, and the other on everything else.
And with Necropolis, you can potentially send heroes to 3 different fronts (if you have good luck in the tavern).
Galtran
Tant
Aislin

In reply to Alex_R

Registered: 9/26/2008

Posts: 2,556

#95 6/6/2009 11:51 PM UTC

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Could you find a Scholar for the Necromancer and level him up to 3-5, then transfer the Resurrection skill to Galtran and make him even stronger?

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Posts from Amendment to section 5.2.1 of the Hv rules (regarding quick-cast spells). Auto-translated

Should point 5.2.1 be removed from the rules?