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In reply to asm
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#77
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asm
Well, why am I even making an add-on... actually, the phrase "because I want to" fits better here.
The goals are approximately as follows:
- to create unified game rules
- to create a unified game hero space
- to continue the good work of Horn and create a worthy tournament version of Heroes
- to maximize the distribution of the tournament version of Heroes
The goals are clear and acceptable. Now, the second question is - why do you think that your actions will lead to these goals? I simply have the opposite feeling.
In reply to Wicc
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#78
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By the way, besides simple questions (like why there are so few options), there are much more complex ones. I don't know if they make sense now. But still, here's an example: simultaneous turn on a standard map. Day 116. Both I and my opponent are within range, but neither of us initiates a restart. However, one of us takes a Necropolis. So, will that Necropolis go to whoever reaches it first? Or will the game crash. The second example is from the same series, but a rarer situation. On day 114, we meet, but for some reason, neither of us wants to engage. For example, one has a strong army and is waiting for day 117. The other is counting on, for example, two conscripts on the restart. During a normal game, both could maneuver, artificially avoiding the restart. What will happen in this situation?
In reply to Oelm
#79
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Oelm
By the way, besides simple questions (like why so few options are made), there are much more complex ones...

1) Currently, it is set up so that online data between players is not transmitted at all, meaning the blue player will not see the red player's movements even if they pass through their zone, and vice versa — it can only be seen on the turn replay. The situation with capturing the same object was planned to be handled such that if players capture the same object (any object) on the same turn, regardless of whether they would have crossed paths or not, it would be a restart... i.e., slightly change the conditions for a restart upon encounter.

2) Everything will be the same as in a regular game, if you do not artificially seek an encounter (i.e., do not take those objects on the map that the red player has already taken on the same turn, or mines, etc.), then it is not a restart; if the same object was taken on the same turn, then it is a restart.

I cannot say exactly how this will be implemented, but the essence is as follows.

Added after 9 minutes
And in general, I am reading the topic completely, and as one of the ideological participants in the version development, I find it quite amusing)))

Everyone is trying to pull the blanket over themselves) but why?

Well, let's say we make the version and release it, and naturally, not all of our solutions to certain tasks will be good, BUT asm does not want to release the game once and forget about it and abandon it. We'll do it our way at first; if something doesn't catch on or clearly displeases the majority, then in the very next patch in a month, it will all be fixed.
That is, tests will resolve all problems, and there is nothing wrong with the very first version being exactly as we intended, especially since our changes to the game are based not just on superficial knowledge of the game, but on vast experience.

Added after 37 minutes
He3Hauka
IMHO, if Oelm and asm were to play, I would bet on Oelm... so what now, should the opinion of a frequently playing player not be taken into account because of such approaches? It seems asm is increasingly falling into egoism, hiding behind such little words.

It's funny how people judge players' experience)
Yes, asm hasn't actively played for about 3 years, but 3 years ago he played on par with the top players of "bai", whom no one has been able to defeat in any tournament) "heroes.by vs ..."
And if there were a game now between asm vs Oelm, I would, for example, bet on asm) though a lot depends on what they will be playing; on TEfull asm's chances are definitely higher, on TElite I think they are equal.
He3Hauka
Asm claims that OELM plays poorly. Since that's the case, he doesn't consider it necessary to take his opinion into account. That was the meaning of asm's phrase. There is no ambiguity here. This is stated by a person who later asks for his arguments to be substantiated. But are his own arguments substantiated? Have you even watched OELM's saves, say 3-4 games? I have seen 2 games of OELM, seen some of asm's latest saves on "bai": asm plays SIGNIFICANTLY worse! Not only does asm insult a stranger for no reason, but it also turns out to be an incorrect statement compared to his gameplay. And all because, in asm's understanding, "some little-known player" allowed himself to criticize his vision of the game. Which, by the way, is very, very debatable given asm's level as a player, and due to the fact that asm plays little, it is also personally unjustified.
After asm says such insults to a stranger, who, by the way, only wanted to contribute to a good cause, asm still has the audacity to say words like "cool down, hotheads". First, learn to treat other people with respect, then cool down yourself, and then say things like that!
If you really wanted to unite the Heroes world, you would never say such words towards other players!

I don't know where you found saves of asm, who hasn't been playing on "bai" for several years), but I doubt that even from saves three years old one can draw such conclusions)

Have you ever argued for 4 hours, at the end of which no one understood anything and your nerves can't take it? In such arguments, various phrases can surface, and not just from one side. Well, I argued with Oelm (or maybe we didn't argue, but had a heated discussion) and so did my brother... in the end, Oelm had VERY few specific suggestions and arguments, and we explained everything to him — what, why, and wherefore — he understood little unfortunately. However, I then suggested Oelm solve specific balance tasks:
1) Necropolis balance — our view of the situation coincided 100%
2) Logistics — also coincided
3) Magic school balance — opinions coincided, but restructuring magic is a new element relative to SoD that we are not very keen to introduce because it changes the gameplay (which, by the way, Oelm did not want to change), so in any case it won't be in the first version; later, if we cannot solve this with a more cosmetic solution, we will still have to introduce restructuring.

Not everything that was done caught on the first time and was immediately of high quality, for example:
1) Experience in TE was 100%, then changed to 50%
2) The Warrior class in TE had a bonus of 2/4/6, then changed to 1/3/6
3) Vic changed the Hives/Griffin Conservatory — it didn't work out successfully the first time either
and so on, countless examples, i.e., let us do it as we see fit, especially since what we are doing is not so bad overall, and then through trial and error, something will remain, something will be removed, something will be changed, and IN THE END we will get a tested prototype:)
In reply to Mee
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#80
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What if there was a match between asm and Oelm right now?
If a grandmother had testicles, she wouldn't be a grandmother. Fact: the version is viewed through the eyes of the tech team, even though it's supposedly being made for the community. As a result, there's misunderstanding and all sorts of nonsense, like changing magic schools, banning group stacks, etc.
In reply to Oelm
#81
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Oelm
Fact: the version is being viewed through the eyes of the tech team, even though it's supposedly being made for the community. As a result, there's a misunderstanding and all sorts of nonsense, like changing magic schools, banning group stacks, etc.

It all depends on your perspective; what might seem like nonsense to you could be a good step towards balance from another point of view. There are thousands of opinions, and if it doesn't work out, they'll fix everything in the next patch.
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#82
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Guys, take it easy – you’re still on the World of Xeen forum. Further messages not related to the topic will be deleted.
В. Уэйтс©
Но поскольку я нищий,
у меня лишь есть мечты.
Я разостлал свои мечты пред вашими ногами.
Ступайте бережно, ибо вы ступаете по моим мечтам.

временно ушел с форума, переодически заглядываю. кому нужен пишите в скайп ewgeniy1985. в аське 384385000 очень редко.
In reply to Mee
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#84
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Mee
Okay, let’s say we release a version and, naturally, not all of our solutions to certain problems will be good. BUT, ASM doesn’t want to release the game once and then ignore it, abandoning it. So, we’ll do things our way at the beginning. If something doesn’t work out or is clearly disliked by the majority, we’ll fix it in the next patch, in a month.
That is, testing will resolve all the problems, and it’s not a big deal if the very first version is exactly as we envisioned it, especially since our changes to the game are based not just on a superficial knowledge of the game, but on a lot of experience.
I won’t speak for everyone, but personally, I’m not arguing about the nuances that can be adjusted during testing, but about the fundamental approach.

In short, the goal is either TE-light 2.0 or TE-Full 1.04. I am a supporter of the second option, and you, judging by your attitude, are of the first.

Essentially, the nuances of what will be at what level and so on are secondary compared to the overall direction of movement.
In reply to Wicc
#85
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Wicc
asm
Well, why am I even making this add-on? Perhaps the phrase "because I want to" is more appropriate here.
The goals are roughly as follows:
- to create unified game rules
- to create a unified game hero space
- to continue Horn's good work and create a worthy Tournament version of Heroes
- to maximize the distribution of the Tournament version of Heroes
The goals are clear and acceptable.

Now, the second question is: why do you think that your actions will lead to these goals?

I simply have the opposite feeling.
Well, let's go through it step by step:
- to create unified game rules:
1) The fewer rules/options, the better.
2) The simpler the rules, the better.
All new gameplay elements contradict this.

- to create a unified game hero space
unified rules + chat + a unified version will greatly contribute to this.

- to continue Horn's good work and create a worthy Tournament version of Heroes
interface changes + TE-related developments and balancing + further development and support of the version

- to maximize the distribution of the Tournament version of Heroes
well, that's advertising and a convenient installer.
Oelm

Fact: the version is viewed through the eyes of the TE players, although it is supposedly being made for the SOD players. As a result, there is a misunderstanding and all sorts of nonsense, such as changing magic schools, banning group stacks, etc.
The version is being made for many categories (I think I described it to you in detail in ICQ). One of the main focuses is on beginners, who, by the way, don't care at all about the slow level and other things; what is much more important is the ease of installing the game, the ease of configuration, the ease of finding an opponent, and simple rules.
And I also told you about the other categories, but I will repeat it here:
true SOD players will still not switch to the new version, because they do not accept any changes; true TE players (hello, Vic ;) ) may deny it for a long time.
But still, the main advantage of the version will be the interface.
Wicc
I won't speak for everyone, but personally, I'm arguing not about the nuances that are adjusted during testing, but about the fundamental approach.

In short, the goal is either TE-light 2.0 or TE-Full 1.04. I am a supporter of the second option, and you, judging by your attitude, are of the first.

In essence, the nuances of what will be at what level, etc., are purely secondary compared to the general direction of movement.

As you have already mentioned, you want a version for the Heroic elite, and I will try to make a version FOR EVERYONE. I will certainly upset some people, but I think it will be a useful experience.
I want to take everything that is undeniable from TE, and put off all the ambiguous things for now; maybe I will introduce them later if it becomes clear that it will be difficult without them.
And in general, we simply have different approaches to modifications. I will now try to explain it with an example of your Hive upgrade:
when you made the upgrade, I was very much FOR it, and I even lobbied for this idea at the Ekb tournament (Mee will confirm), but it didn't come to fruition, and your system revealed shortcomings.
So, we have a different approach in fixing these shortcomings: you immediately thought about further improving the system, i.e., introducing new elements and modifications again, patching the hole with new patches, but I would have rolled back and started thinking about a new system, which would have MINIMUM changes.
I will repeat my favorite phrase once again:
Making something complex is easy. Making something simple is difficult.

P.S. I have answered all the constructive questions/comments; I recommend that the rest better get down to business (for example, the promised Unified Rating of the Runet)
In reply to asm
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#86
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asm
Hey Vic ;)
Let's skip the

Moderated: INAPPROPRIATE LANGUAGE in the message

snarky comments
, please :). I'm not one to mince words either.

Now, about the topic at hand – your reasoning is logical, but it's focused on the wrong situation. You're thinking like a developer of a new game, not like a modder.

Do a thought experiment. You've written that version, the one you're planning. What happens next?

Will all the hero-loving players eagerly jump in to play it? Not likely... They're already struggling to get TE-Light accepted, which is a huge headache for the developers, and your version will be even more different. Just the one point about moving the word to the second floor caused a lot of complaints, even though it's not a big deal.

Next, predict the reaction of the TE developers. I've talked to many of them, and there's no enthusiasm for going back to SoD. In the end, people will discuss it, express their dissatisfaction, and Sag and Horn will have to create a decent TE gameplay on your engine.

That's basically what the prospects look like... Do you really need that? You'll just end up getting burned. A smart person learns from the mistakes of others, and there have already been plenty of those.
In reply to Wicc
#87
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Wicc
Let's avoid any snark, please :). I'm not one to hold back either.
There should be no "snark"; on the contrary, it would be foolish to leave hints that in this matter, you are defending the version of a true TE developer, while Oelm is a SOD developer.
"Snark" is more likely in the postscript.
Wicc

Now, about the main topic – your reasoning is logical, but it is focused on the wrong situation. You are reasoning like a developer of a new game, not like a modder.

Do a thought experiment. Suppose you wrote that version that you are planning. What will happen next?

Will all the Heroes community happily rush to play it? Not really... here, people are pushing TE-Lite with a lot of hassle for the SOD community, and your version will be even more different. Just one point – moving the word to the 2nd floor – caused so many complaints, although, in general, it's a minor thing.
I'll repeat once again:
- the target audience is not only SOD and TE players, but primarily newcomers.
- TE-Lite has problems – for example, a complex installation. I am going to solve this problem.
- a very significant advantage of the version will be simultaneous turn-based gameplay.
I think all these factors will encourage people to try the new version.
Wicc

Next, predict the reaction of the TE players. I've talked to many, and there is no enthusiasm for reverting to SOD. As a result, people will discuss it, express their dissatisfaction, and me, Sagu, and Horn will have to create a normal TE gameplay on your engine.

That's basically the perspective... do you really need it? You'll just end up with problems; a smart person learns from the mistakes of others, and there have already been many such mistakes.

In my opinion, most TE players will switch without any problems. In fact, I want to abandon two things in TE – classes and experience. And even then, in a later version, compensate for this by adjusting skills.
"Creating a normal TE gameplay" can be done in parallel.
In reply to asm
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#88
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asm
mainly newcomers.
Newcomers arrive in small batches and quickly fall under the influence of organized groups. It is these groups that should be influenced. Right now, you are opposing them, questioning the success of the entire event.
- TElight has problems - for example, a complex installation. I am going to solve this problem.
- a very significant advantage of the version will be simultaneous turns.
I think all these factors will encourage people to try the new version.
I agree with that, but these problems don't need to be overcomplicated to solve.
In my opinion, most TE players will switch without any problems; in fact, I want to get rid of two things in TE - classes and experience.
I'm afraid that they won't switch then. More precisely, they will switch, but will ask someone to return these features to the game beforehand (I, for example, will definitely ask).

After all, in order to switch, the new version must be better than the old one, at least in something. And you are suggesting simply cutting out a couple of essential gameplay elements without really adding anything in return, and saying "enjoy."
In reply to Mee
#89
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Mee
It's funny how people judge players' experience)
Yes, ASM hasn't been actively playing for about 3 years, but 3 years ago, he played on par with the top players, whom no one has been able to beat in any tournament) "heroes.by vs ..."

In this phrase, I probably exaggerated the situation a bit:) It's better to correct it to
played well against the top players
and I wrote this in connection with the fact that about 3 years ago, ASM was in the top 5 in the ranking at the end of the season, and at that time, many more people were playing, and it wasn't so easy + it implied playing in the top ten.
In reply to Wicc
#90
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Wicc
I'm afraid they won't switch then. Or rather, they will, but only after asking someone to bring those features back into the game beforehand (I, for example, will definitely ask).

So, ASM is essentially creating a new version of Heroes 3. Judging by the amount of talk surrounding all of this, I'm starting to get the impression that if simultaneous turns are released, it will be very, very raw, with a bunch of new bugs, new difficulties, new rules, etc. Or it might not even be released at all. But we'll see. In my opinion, the best option would be to release an expansion with simultaneous turns, and then a separate version with the same feature, plus ideally, an ASM version. Then, ASM could truly be thanked and not criticized. And if the ASM version turns out to have better balance and is simpler overall, I'm sure most people will switch and join in. Because pushing your own idea of balance by taking advantage of the already successful simultaneous turns is still a monopolistic dictatorship, but if you release everything I suggested, that would be true democracy. Although I understand that it's a huge amount of work, and most likely an impossible one. :(
In reply to Samurai
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#91
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Why not make everything optional, so there's a menu with three options:

1. SoD-balance
2. TE-balance
3. asm-balance

I think implementing this wouldn't be more difficult than implementing simultaneous turns.