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#302
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He3Hauka
Dear sir, if you had carefully read the title and description of the thread, not a single word was said about TE or SoD; that needs to be discussed here. By the way, I am talking about both SoD and TE (in case you didn't notice that you are being watched), although of course more about TE.
Right, let me explain it in plain English: I'm tired of pondering over every single post from people like Wicc, for example, trying to figure out where he's talking about TE and where he's talking about SoD :confused: . There is a section for TE, write there—I don't understand what the problem is? Do you just want to show off your smarts, like how Barbarian wolves are handled on the 2nd week of Dragon Utopia? Verstehen?
He3Hauka

1May I be so bold as to ask, which specific template for Necro do you consider inconvenient,
2besides TK3 (in which your incompetence will likely be proven to you very soon, although I'm sure your reference to "luck" will cover for you in that case:) ). By the way, TK3 is the most rarely played template of the four (see: ki, 8mm, TK3, Jebus Cross). Although this is entirely my IMHO.
1Any template without a large amount of free troops from Hives and Confluxes, or fixes for example.
2Well come on, prove it already, stop talking big, I don't understand what the problem is. 442018688, if I'm at my computer, I'll answer 100%.

Added after 2 minutes
Wicc
A mixed army is used in TK3, so the full growth power doesn't really matter. Once SAG gave me an arena map for SoD; there you got 5x native growth, all magic books and expert schools. Honestly, I got crushed as Necro by Castle—Archangels with Sacrifice are evil :).
Well damn it all, there is a chance for Necros to win in TK, but not because of their pathetic troops, only with the support of strong Castles; I'm tired of writing the same thing over and over :mad:
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#303
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Wlk777
1. Any template without a large number of free units from the Hive or Conflux, or fixes, for example.
Could you tell me the name of the template? Any examples? We're not talking about fixes; fixes are a separate and completely different topic!
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#304
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Continuation of the banquet

5-6-7-8 I won't divide by strength, the towns are roughly equal, it's more a matter of personal preference here.

Dungeon.

By and large, an off-meta town, too dependent on the spawn layout. On a good layout, it can give even Necropolis a run for its money, but on a bad one, it can get seriously bogged down. Accordingly, opinions about it are also mixed - some revere it and consider themselves lucky to get it in the draft, while others try to ban it or force it on an opponent in exchange for a stronger town.

1) The starting power is devastating, the Miner skill highlights it. This is essentially the town's main advantage. The only issue is it's not universal - against ranged or fast creatures, they can whittle down the Troglodytes, which is very painful - besides them, Dungeon has practically nothing. That is, if you lose or heavily deplete the main attacking stack, it's easier to just surrender immediately. Managing to conserve every single Troglodyte is crucial. However, if you get a good external dwelling (cats, ments, eyes), then with the portal you get a second main stack.

2) Conservatories-Hives are broken easily and effortlessly, if you haven't lost your Troglodytes. The rest of the army mainly goes for meat-shielding (if there were no external dwellings).

3) Dragon Utopias also fall normally, if you didn't mess up irreversibly at the previous stages.

4) Speed is average.

The main pain point - it's very difficult to play and fight, a lot depends on restart manipulation. Often you get tight layouts, so you need playing experience to assess the real potential of a layout. The main thing needed - a minimal-requirement Conservatory in the first days, as well as a good external dwelling for the portal. If you have this, the game immediately becomes powerful and confident.

In the end, it's a sprint town, powerful, focused on deciding the outcome of the match no later than the 2nd week. But unstable and lacking long-term prospects.

Inferno.

Another town with highly contradictory player opinions. For the same reason - strong dependence on the layout. The main dependencies are money and blocks. With a good layout, Demons crush everything, but with an average-bad one...

1) The starting army is weak. You need money for Efreeti, which might not be available immediately. Sometimes you have to end the week without Efreeti. Getting money is harder than for other towns, both due to the army's weakness and the poverty of respawns. Plus the second front is weak, maybe just Efreeti, but it's usually better to have them in the main army. The territory filling equalizer slightly simplifies the task.

2) Fighting in Conservatories-Hives is difficult until you've assembled a decent Demon stack. That is, when other towns are already actively recruiting legionaries from afar, Inferno is looking for money to buy up the army from all captured towns, and then spends tempo and timer on slicing. In small hives, slicing goes quite well though - Magogs rarely target Pit Lords if Gog-Imps are present. But if luck isn't on your side and Pits get hit, the prospects immediately become bleak...

3) The question of taking Dragon Utopias comes down to having a decent Demon stack. On the 2nd week, it's not always possible to complete all necessary preparatory work. On an average layout, you can get into the Dragon Utopia on 132-133, which is somewhat late (compared to the aces).

4) Speed is above average - Papa on dogs, scout heroes on Imps, plus Demons have the highest chance for Logistics - 10 points.

Main pain points - financial policy and slicing technique. A stayer town, time delay usually works in its favor.

Castle.

The easiest town to play, average in most parameters.

1) The starting army is decent, and importantly, easy to manage. Upgrade the Archers and go-go break whatever you see. But it's not universal, serious troubles on ranged maps. Plus, early breakthroughs a-la Shakhti-Gosha-Tiras are beyond its capability. There's a second front - Cavalry, though it appears late.

2) Strength in Conservatories-Hives is average. Just need not to mess up the positioning in Conservatories.

3) It's a bit tough in Dragon Utopias. The weakness of growth due to its incompleteness is felt. When building Cavalry with Castle in the 1st week, you can only take 3 stacks into the Dragon Utopia. Given that you ideally don't want to lose Crusaders before accumulating a decent number and upgrading them. And Pikemen alone for meat-shielding are weak.

4) Speed is average, on the 2nd week Griffin Guardians help.

Castle's main advantage, sharply increasing its chances in serious games, is having its own Angels and the possibility of upgrading preserved ones. But this prospect usually realizes no earlier than the middle of the 3rd week. More tempo-oriented towns can already noticeably outpace Castle in development by that time.

Rampart

I don't like this town, I try not to play it. The bulk of its fans are players who recently moved to TE from SoD. They still have the uber-town stereotype, which can be used by giving it to them in the draft against stronger towns.

1) The starting army is good, better than Castle's, partly due to the ability to put 2-3 Centaurs per stack in front of ranged units, reducing or completely eliminating Elf losses. But there's a strong dependence on having wood and the need to upgrade Elves on the 2nd day. While Castle can expand fairly cleanly, Rampart often needs to make a lot of strange movements in the first days to ensure normal expansion.

2) Conservatories-Hives are taken generally a bit easier than with Castle, helped by a stronger and faster army. But - dependence on gold. The town is quite expensive, so you can't always afford the luxury of going into a Conservatory having bought out the entire weekly growth. Options starting with "it depends" appear. Upgrades are desirable, which again increases the need for gold.

3) With Dragon Utopias it's fine, on the 3rd week you can break it even with native growth, without help from Wyverns/Angels. But the lack of a clearly defined main attack stack has an effect - power is spread across slots, making it easy to suffer critical losses.

4) Speed is average. Taking Kyrre is unjustified imho, Ivor is needed. On the 2nd week, Silver Pegasi help.

The town is very similar to Castle, the army is a bit stronger, but also more expensive accordingly. Plus there's no late-game prospect - Dragons are a pain to build, even on the 2nd week it's rarely possible to get them out. Ultimately, a very blunt town, predictable, and therefore not particularly interesting to me personally.

9. Tower

The weakest town. And therefore popular among top players :). For this same reason, it has a decent win-loss statistic.

1) The starting army is normal. Though slow and vulnerable to ranged units. Among the starting heroes, there's no one with Tactics - you have to give Golems to the Squire, reducing mobility. Ideally, if Tiras or Shakhti appears in the tavern - you can carry Golems in a reserve stack.

2) Difficult in Conservatories. The army is slow. Tolerable on snow, but on other terrain types, it's quite sad. You need upgrades, Haste in the spellbook, and even then it doesn't always help. Plus that's money and tempo. The number of stacks also leaves much to be desired - no Genies, and you can't take Mages inside. The taking technique is similar to Castle's, only the army is weaker and slower.

3) Very sad in Dragon Utopias. Only meat-shielding is available - Golems and Gargoyles. Taking Nagas into Dragon Utopias is very risky - Dragons love hitting them. All hope rests on Conservatories-Hives.

4) Speed is low.

Everywhere you look, there are cons. In the army, in building, and in heroes. And the prospect is weak, I've only built Titans once in my memory, but that was probably around the 4th week and on a chocolate layout where they weren't particularly needed.

Still, it makes winning with Tower all the sweeter :).
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#305
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Dirty_Player
So can we find out the template name? Examples?
What, are you implying that they don't exist and can't exist, or did I not understand? :eek: Look, I see everyone has gotten hooked on the same type of templates with a large number of Dragon Fly Hives and confluxes, they don't even believe that others exist :confused:
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#306
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Dirty_Player
Could you tell me the name of the template? Can you provide some examples? We're not talking about fixes here; fixes are a separate and completely different topic!
I don't think you need to ask the highly respected Wlk777 for examples, or he'll give you examples from his games where he didn't have 100 skeletons as Necropolis on turn 2 :D :D :D.
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#307
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He3Hauka
I don't think it's necessary to ask the highly respected Wlk777 for examples, otherwise he'll cite his own games where he didn't have 100 skeletons on the second level:D :D :D.
Yeah, I'm a total noob and I can't play, I won't be able to accumulate 100 skeletons even in a month, let alone now...:D
In reply to Wlk777
#308
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Wlk777
What, is it implied that they don't exist and cannot exist, or did I misunderstand? :eek: Look, I see everyone has gotten hooked on the same type of templates with lots of Dragon Fly Hives and cans, they don't even believe other ones exist :confused:
Of course there are templates, there are some where you can't even gather 500 skeletons even by around week 1, day 37. The question is, how often are such templates played? We are talking about the most widespread and popular templates after all. Wlk777, we ask you to name a couple of templates where, in your opinion, Necropolis is the weakest. God grant that these templates (if you can name them) you yourself play more often than SM-ok, Jebus Cross, or 8mm. If such exists and everyone agrees that Necro there is the weakest in MASS battles, then I am ready to start believing in miracles:p
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#309
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He3Hauka
Wlk777, after all, please name a couple of templates where, in your opinion, Necropolis is the weakest.
Point me to where I claimed that they exist ;) . However, I am not retracting my opinion that, firstly, Necropolis troops are the weakest overall (and not just levels 1-3), and secondly, the "strength" of Necropolis lies only in the fact that popular templates for them are convenient, but in general, the castle itself is weak (troops, heroes, castle bonuses, etc.), and that's all I'm claiming, nothing more.
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#310
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Wlk777
secondly, the "strength" of the Necropolis lies in the fact that popular templates for them are convenient.
Exactly! This is what we finally came to! And convenience and comfort are strength! Before Archangels, which are many times stronger than Ghost Dragons, one might simply not reach! And you're wrong about the heroes! Yes, there's no Kirr or Tazar. But there are Isra and Vidomina, who are somehow considered overpowered! It's not just like that, is it? I'm sure that Isra/Vidomina without restrictions and with a booster can easily conquer Utopia on the second week! I've done it myself many times!
Can Tazar boast the same?
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#311
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Dirty_Player
I'm sure that Isra/Widomina, without restrictions and with a booster, can easily conquer Utopia on the second week!
In The Eastern, right? (I'll ask you to indicate in the future which version these statements refer to, and even better, not to write anything about The Eastern here; there is a separate section for that).
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#312
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Wlk777
In TE, of course, right? (I'd ask you to specify which version such statements refer to in the future, or better yet, don't write anything about TE here; there's a separate section for that)
I'm writing about SoD. In TE, Vidomina and Isra are unplayable!
In reply to Wlk777
#313
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Wlk777
Point me to where I claimed they exist ;) . However, I stand by my opinion that, firstly, Necropolis troops are the weakest overall (and not just levels 1-3), and secondly, the "strength" of the Necropolis lies solely in the fact that popular templates for it are convenient, but in itself, the castle is rather weak overall (troops, heroes, castle bonuses, etc.), and that's all I'm saying, nothing more.
The castle is the strongest overall (precisely because of the heroes, bonuses, etc.). When we talk about something, we always refer to it in relation to something else. Right now, we're talking about the Necropolis, in relation to the most popular templates. And I see that you've already started with abstractions like "the castle is the weakest, but I don't know in what context it's the weakest":D
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#314
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Dirty_Player
I'm writing about SoD. In TE, Vidomina and Isra are unplayable!
For crying out loud, either I'm a total lamer and complete noob, or then Isras/Vidominas take Dragon Utopia on the 2nd week not because of their specialty at all (maybe 100-150 extra skills max, and even then they are attack/defense, a drop in the ocean for Dragon Utopia), but rather because they got lucky with the map layout, a few convenient hives and cans, that's all.

Added after 2 minutes
He3Hauka
I see you've already started using abstractions like "Castle is the weakest, but as for what it's weakest against, I don't know" :D
How many times do I have to repeat it before it sinks in? :eek:
The troops are weak, the heroes are nothing, the Castle bonuses don't rule. What other questions are there, I don't get it? :mad:
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#315
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Wlk777
Good grief, either I'm a total lamer and complete noob, or then Isry/Vidomina take the Dragon Utopia on the 2nd week not because of their specialty at all (max 100-150 extra skeletons, and even then they are just basic ones, a drop in the ocean for the Dragon Utopia), but rather because they got lucky with the map layout, a few convenient hives and one-towns, that's all.
100-150 skeletons on the second week is actually a very decent bonus. The advantage of Isry/Vidomina is that from the first day they have expert necromancy and skeletons are produced in accelerated mode! We gather 500-600 and go-go-go to the Dragon Utopia. That's such wild damage and so much health...
Don't be offended, you seem to understand Heroes, but on a question like this you really reason like a lamer :confused:
Wlk777
How many times do I have to repeat it for it to sink in? :eek:
The troops are weak, the heroes are nothing, the Castle bonuses don't rule. What other questions are there, I don't get it? :mad:
The Castle bonus of +10% necromancy - is that not ruling???? :eek:
Heroes raise skeletons, thereby increasing the army for free - is that a bad thing?
Well, the units might be slightly worse in terms of stats than in other castles, but does that even matter?
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#316
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Dirty_Player

Don't be offended, you seem to know your heroes, but on a question like this, you're actually reasoning like a lamer :confused:
Yeah, I got a bit confused, I think I'm trying to reason from the perspective of the current rules, just blanking out for some reason :confused:

Added after 2 minutes
Dirty_Player

Well, the units might be slightly worse in terms of stats than in other castles, but is that even important?
That's exactly what I wanted to say; it might not be important, but sometimes it still plays a role, which in my eyes, for example, makes me question if Necro is unconditionally the strongest castle.

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Dirty_Player
100-150 skeletons on the second week is a very decent bonus.
Yeah, but it's unlikely to rule in the Dragon Utopia without those same free ducks and angels.