Posts from DISCUSSIONS on “Rules for online games in HoMM3 and formulas for calculating player rating.”

Did you know that there's a rule that says...?

And do you know that there's also the following rule?

Any changes to the rules are allowed with the mutual consent of the players, except for rule 6. That is, you can play according to mutually agreed-upon rules and even without any rules at all (again, rule 6 applies under all circumstances).

We didn't discuss it... by default, the game was played... I just forgot about this option.

Let's submit proposals for changing the rules and make amendments to the HeroesWorld rules through a general vote, which have long needed refinement

Let's do it. There are a lot of completely pointless rules or just strange ones. I think we went too far with the scrolls; that's why Lebron is surprised that they can't be used against neutral creatures on World. Regarding the shifted passages, it's correct, of course, but there are situations where you can really rush through, even grab a secondary objective, and then you think, "Where's the guard?" – so you either surrender immediately or replay the map for who knows how many turns if the opponent lets you! We need to come up with something about that too... All my previous suggestions for "rationalization" remain valid; it wasn't a joke. Later, I might have more ideas:rolleyes: ...

Let's propose changes to the rules and, through a general vote, make amendments to the HeroesWorld rules that have long needed refinement

It's a real pity that you and Kostyan weren't at HW when the rules were being developed here. "Long needed" - that's basically since you showed up on the portal, I take it ;) Well, before you came along, there didn't seem to be any dissatisfied people. Holding a general vote = asking for opinions on every issue from about 50 people, which is a hassle... Well, it could be done in general, but it's unlikely to change anything – the current rules suit the vast majority.

However, the issue of having monsters of level 5-6-7 for an entire week, with their native secondary skills, visiting all the obelisks before digging up the Grail (and even then, only after the fifth attempt), and the game being prolonged by endless restarts at level 116... remains unresolved.

Regarding the found scrolls, I would leave everything as is (i.e., without building the corresponding floor of the Guild or obtaining them from the Scholar (Books); they cannot be used against neutrals or opponents). The only thing I would change is the following: when a week of monsters of level 6-7 appears, it is preferable to load the auto-save to exclude it. I think that point 5.12 of the Rules needs no further comment: "It is forbidden to enter neighboring territories without breaking through the guard standing at the passage (i.e., if it is moved). If two or three guards are scattered along the road, any one can be broken through. In the absence of a passage guard, including a moved one, it is allowed to freely move from one spawn point to another." In my understanding, if the guard is moved and there are several, then only the guard that can be reached without leaving the boundaries (if they are obvious) of one's own spawn point can be attacked.

Well, you could, but it probably won't change anything, as the current rules suit the vast majority.

I can't speak for everyone, but they definitely don't suit me. There are too many small, formal, and, in my opinion, silly restrictions, while things that give one of the opponents a huge chance of an easy win in an otherwise even game are not restricted at all:confused: At the very least, the explosion and the helmet with +6 to all stats should be removed. Angel Wings should be next. And that's not even everything. IMHO.

There are many small, formal, and, in my opinion, silly restrictions, but things that give one of the opponents a huge chance for an easy victory in an even game are not restricted at all:confused:. Canceling the explosion, a helmet with +6 to everything – these are just a few examples. Angel Wings are also on the list. And this is far from everything. IMHO.

I'll jump into the discussion in a non-constructive way (at first) - in that case, play chess.
And secondly, as has been repeated hundreds of times, the rules are not mandatory, but rather recommendations. Agree with your opponents on the rules that suit both sides.
Furthermore, it is obvious that changes to the rules will not be made based on 1-2 votes. Do you want to make changes to the rules? Although discussions about the rules take place in this thread, the initiator of the changes can create a new thread, possibly with a vote, possibly without, where they will outline all the proposed changes to the existing rules. And we will discuss, express our opinions, and vote.
If there are only a few changes, we can start expressing our opinions and discussing them right here. So, which point should we start with?

If there are only a few changes, we can start discussing them right here. So, which point should we start with?

I'm still talking about my idea... include in the rules: if a week of monsters with levels 6-7 appears, automatically exclude it.

There are many small, formal, and, in my opinion, silly restrictions...

Otherwise, it's impossible. There are players who cling to every little detail during a game, and then the moderators have to delete pages of arguments. That's why the rules are explained in such detail; there have been incidents, and even on our forum, I've addressed a few.

...and items that give one of the opponents a huge chance of an easy victory in an even game are not restricted in any way. Canceling the explosion, a helmet +6 to everything – that's a must. Angel Wings are also next in line. And that's far from everything. IMHO.

Not long ago, there was a discussion about doing the opposite, allowing many things.
If they remove the Angel Wings and the helmet +6, then what should be done with the Air Book and the sword +5? And if they start banning artifacts, then why even take Utopia? I think that there will never be people who are satisfied with the rules. Although discussions are necessary, but they should be focused, not just general criticism.
One idea is proposed, discussed, and only then is the next one considered; otherwise, it becomes a mess.

The only thing I advocate for is keeping the 4-minute time limit in the rules. I will repeat my arguments. Of course, everyone who plays regularly online on our forum and other forums understands that 6 minutes is better, the quality of the game increases, and the percentage of mistakes and rash actions decreases. Just like in chess.

But we still need to attract new people; the blood must be renewed. In tournaments, I had to play with people who insisted on a 1-2 minute time limit per turn. Admit it, some of you also started playing with such a time limit. The official 6 minutes is, well, I don't know, like a doberman tied up at the entrance to a supermarket; new people will stay away.

Therefore, we don't lose anything with 4 minutes. Experienced players on the forum, who have known each other for a long time, will always agree among themselves to play for 6 minutes, both in tournaments and for rating. If a tournament veteran meets a newcomer, 4 minutes will be enough for him to win anyway.
In my opinion, 4 minutes are much less intimidating than 6, especially for beginners

And I believe that the rules are generally quite balanced, with rare exceptions. After all, they weren't made up out of thin air, but have been changed and improved over several years. I understand that the rules on world follow two main lines: banning broken tactics (a tactic that has no counterplay in the game if one player gets it), utilizing as many of the heroes' in-game capabilities as possible, and not banning too many features.

For example, Diplomacy is broken. You can only counter Diplomacy with Necromancer or Conflux, or with Diplomacy itself. Dimension Door without restriction is also broken.

Therefore, dear world players, don't just write "I'm annoyed by such-and-such rule points" (especially those with little online experience), but try to argue your position ("I lost because my opponent had Explosion" is not an argument).

And now my thoughts on the matter:
1) Overall, the rules are fair enough.
2)

Regarding found scrolls, I would leave everything as is (i.e., without building the corresponding Guild level or getting them from the Sage (Book), they cannot be used against neutrals or the opponent).

The only thing I would change is this: when a week of monsters level 6-7 occurs, it's preferable to load the autosave to exclude it.

I think point 5.12 of the Rules needs a comment, quote: "It is forbidden to penetrate neighboring territories without defeating the guard standing at the passage (i.e., if it is moved). If two or three guards are scattered along the road – any one of them may be fought at choice.
If there is no guard at the passage, including a moved one, free movement from resp to resp is allowed."

In my understanding, if the guard is moved and there are several, you can only fight the guard you can reach without leaving the borders (if they are obvious) of your own Respawn.

I support this except for the last part, IMHO an unnecessary complication of the game.
3) About Necromancers, Necromancers are almost broken, so I'm in favor of a random starting hero for them, like on Portal.
4) If scrolls were allowed to be used, it could give too big an advantage. For example, I have more than once gotten Dimension Door, Portal, and other cool spells in the first week. You get to ГО (or even better to 117), and then head straight to the opponent. Not interesting!
5) Regarding native secondary skills, I think sooner or later we'll have to impose a restriction on building the 2nd level. Maybe the time isn't right yet.
6) Rest per meeting – I'm all for it.
7) And now about atavisms – there are two points that, as far as I know, remain from the Chaos League rules and are now completely unnecessary: the ban on digging for the Grail (allow it without restrictions) and the ban on the Angel Alliance (naturally, allow it).
8) Proposal for multi-defense – allow it everywhere except at ГО. If at ГО, multi-defense is only allowed with the same hero.

Basically, everything else seems reasonable, adequate, and moderately balanced.

And finally, about time control(!): I don't know if 6 minutes will scare people off or not, but why set it to 4 minutes in tournaments? Make time control 6 for tournaments, and 4 by agreement. In the season too, you could specify 2 types of control. Many people say that 6 minutes drags out the game. But let's do a simple calculation: 2 players are playing. One (who thinks he can do in 4 minutes everything he would in 6) and the other. The first spends 4 minutes on his turns. The second, let's say, always takes 6. And let's take, for example, a situation on month 2 week 1 day 1.

2x30=60 minutes. That's if the game doesn't end on M2W1D1. So that's an extra hour. But turns on M2W1D1 usually last quite a long time because you're fighting strong guards (that is, if you're not just chasing the opponent), let's say 10 minutes each. So 3 days – 60 minutes – the same hour. Now the question: If you play with a 6-minute time control, wouldn't that allow the game to end at least 3 days earlier? I believe so – definitely. And in 90% of cases, the time saved will be much more than 3 days. So: 6-minute time control saves time, while 4-minute time control wastes more of it.

Furthermore, Eric wrote that a strong player will beat a weak one with 4-minute limits. Well, that's exactly the problem! If you're playing weaker, firstly you'll have even less of a chance, and secondly you'll have even less chance to at least learn something.

So: a 6-minute control saves time, while a four-minute control wastes more time.

Besides, Eric wrote that a strong player will win against a weak player in 4 minutes. And that's the problem! If you play worse, firstly, you have even fewer chances, and secondly, you have even fewer chances to learn at least something.

That's not what I was talking about. Conditionally, our players can be divided into 3 groups. Group 1 is experienced players who have played online a lot, and almost all of them understand the advantages of 6-minute control.
Group 2 consists of players who have recently started playing online, but already understand the game, analyze replays, and try to buy the 8th hero as soon as possible; they see cans and naga banks on the map, etc. These players are open to dialogue, and you can explain the advantages of 6 minutes to them.
Group 3 is what keeps the forum alive – the influx of new players. Most of them hang out in topics like "...which level 5 unit is the strongest...", but some of them also reach the online forum. And the first thing they do is read the rules. This person has not had the opportunity to play the game to the fullest before; in battles with the computer or a friend, 1-2 minutes was enough.
And now, this unprepared person is hit hard by the 6-minute control. You can give arguments to a prepared player that 6 minutes is even faster than 4, but for a beginner, it's too much. He's not that much of a fan of the game yet. He plays the map with the computer or a friend for 3 or 4 game months, multiplies it by 6-minute control, thinks badly about online play, and leaves. A completely new person in online play is not yet ready to analyze replays from games with experienced players; it takes time to get to that point, and he will hardly save the game at first.
He will either give up on learning online or go to other forums where the time control is smaller, or even to other games where there is also online play.

In general, groups 1 and 2 will find common ground with each other with 6 minutes, but group 3 will not.
We are definitely losing ground in attracting new players. But otherwise, I am not against 6 minutes at all.

4) If using scrolls is allowed, it can create too much of an advantage. For example, I have often acquired powerful spells like Dimension Door and Portal early in the game. Reaching level 121, you can then use Gate (or even better, at level 117) and advance towards your opponent. It's not interesting!

The question is whether to allow the use of combat scrolls against neutral creatures. Otherwise, it becomes absurd: I have a group of Grand Orcs guarding a scroll with Chain Lightning. I spend a lot of troops trying to break through, and then I can't even use it. It's ridiculous.
And Galtran should be banned; he's a real pain. :D

I take 6 minutes. Maybe 4 minutes is enough for half of my turns, and I still have plenty of time left because everything is automated! But sometimes the map generates in such a way that strategically important objects are located at opposite ends of a huge starting area, and you need to move troops twice in one turn, position them, and move back. I've watched replays of good players who play in 4 minutes. They split their army and clear the map with 2-3 heroes without moving troops around. But usually, there's nothing to split in the starting army. What kind of chain clearing can be done in 4 minutes? Let's say we're playing on a 4-minute timer, the time runs out, I didn't have time to complete the plan, the pace is lost, etc. There are many cases where losses are simply due to not having time to transfer troops to my main hero. Eric, how much useful information can beginners gain from such games? For example, I'm currently only playing on 6 minutes, and if there's a tournament on 4 minutes, I simply won't participate. Apparently, I'm not the only one. A beginner who wants to learn how to play will never complain that their opponent takes too long to make their moves. When I played against MikeSpb (this player probably has the longest turns of anyone I've ever heard of), his turns were many times longer than mine (we played on TE 3000+400). After the game, I looked at the replays, analyzed... The management of moves for each cell of each hero was clearly and precisely planned. This is an indicator of strong play, and neither I nor Chudozavr were ever able to beat him in the interportal, not even once! What kind of move management can there be in 4 minutes? You barely have time to move all the heroes, let alone make the game of good quality!