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Posts from A program for determining luck/morality in Heroes 3!
It seems that the issue isn't related to the Windows version, but rather to the individual characteristics of each specific operating system.
I agree with this. I often need to continue a game on a different computer (with a different OS). Finding an algorithm or at least some kind of pattern in what's happening, i.e., changes in battle parameters, seems impossible to me (but it must exist, as in Heroes of Might and Magic II). So, I'd be glad to see any hypotheses and opinions here, and also test them in practice (there won't be any difficulties with that) :)
Why not? It happens. For example, in the "War of the Strongest" and "Capture" tournaments, I even looked for such cells... and found them. It's just that it doesn't work in every battle. Therefore, this is just as valid a hypothesis about the morale mechanic as any other.
All these hypotheses, of course, have a right to exist, but everything has an explanation, and the time interval influenced the morale outcome... Okay, let's not argue. It's up to each player to generate as they see fit! Eldgernon;188799
Besides, when replaying the battle from your save, my sorcerer generated a different cast. With the same actions from the snipers (always pressing "Shield"), the sorcerer generated: 1. Bloodlust. 2,3,4,5 times: Haste 6 times: Slow! :smile03: :)
I think I've clarified things for the esteemed invisible! In your example, IMHO, you pressed DEFENSE in vain. You should have moved away; then, perhaps, Stone Skin would have been active all the time, because snipers don't have enough defense, and by pressing the spacebar, you added it anyway, so that's what happened... This is IMHO, and I'm not 100% sure about what I wrote... AlexSpl;188800
It's interesting that "good" and "bad" morale are implemented in two procedures, while luck is in one.
This is indeed interesting. It seems to me that the game developers simply forgot to make negative luck... i.e., -3 = -2 = -1 = 0, it doesn't matter... This made the spell MISFORTUNE, the Archdevil's ability, etc., meaningless... Eldgernon;188799
An interesting and important point for me. Why is focusing on expert marksmanship more important than focusing on expert luck (leadership)?
The answer, it seems to me, is obvious. Damage is never superfluous, and defense is defense. As can be seen from the video, morale was triggered there consistently and without any leadership! Mullich's specialty doesn't seem critical in the conserve, but in a battle with titans, Mullich would have helped save an angel, but with basic marksmanship instead of expert, the snipers' damage would have been different, and it would most likely have taken more turns, although expert leadership is expensive, so it's unclear what would have brought more benefit... But one thing is certain: Mullich would have struggled longer in the conserve; it's not a fact that he would have killed 30 griffons in 2 shots... It needs to be tested...
Or not. :) In my opinion, no army parameters generated before combat change during combat.
Yes, I checked - nothing changes anymore. :) But while I was checking, I realized that after casting "Haste," the Centaurs' speed becomes 14, so they can easily run around the central obstacle, and no Harpy is needed at all. :) vbn;188666
And, undoubtedly, we can discuss everything together,
Yes, of course. By the way, there's another thing. In my fight against the Titans (in the open field), the Wizard never changed his first cast. That is, if he was in the second slot, he would definitely cast "Haste," if in the fourth slot, for example, he would always cast "Bless." But the second cast was different, sometimes there was none at all, although I'm not sure I reproduced everything exactly the same up to the second cast. In general, the mystery of controlling Luck also interested me during the champion walkthrough. Just like you write, there were cases where it seemed I had found the correct sequence of actions for Luck to trigger (in my case) for the Sharpshooters on the second turn of the battle. Let's say, the first time it triggers by chance while going through options. I write everything down, repeat it a second time - it triggers again. Well, I think I've got it. I repeat it a third time - and now there are different outcomes. After what you said, I'm now thinking, perhaps that famous pause is to blame? Let's say, the first 2 times I performed the correct sequence of actions, BUT - I clicked "Shoot" a second after the turn passed to the Sharpshooters. And the third time and onwards, everything was so familiar it was automatic, and I clicked the mouse immediately when the turn started. Maybe that's why the seemingly "found" Luck suddenly disappeared? And another conclusion. If the pause really matters, then it follows that the sequence of moves isn't important at all! With any setup, you can achieve Luck triggering (by guessing the pause), and the sequence is only needed in the sense that it's simply easier to calculate and reproduce the necessary pause for a specific turn. In short, tests are needed. I'll try to replay my battle save, if possible.
Added after 27 minutes Dirty_Player;188817
It seems Mr. invisible explained the Wizard! In your example, IMHO, you shouldn't have pressed DEFEND.
Not entirely sure what invisible has to do with it:) The discussion was about the fact that, according to Vbn, battles in "closed rooms" always have the same battle map. At least, his tests allowed for such an assumption. I gave an example that with his save, but on my machine, the battle in the Griffin Conservatory has different casts from the Wizard. To clear my conscience, I checked what would happen if I didn't stand still but moved the Sharpshooters; naturally, it was always the same. The Wizard's cast was still different.Dirty_Player;188817
The answer seems obvious to me. Damage is never superfluous, and Luck is Luck. As can be seen from the video, morale there only triggered on the move and without any Leadership! But one thing is for sure, Mullich would have struggled longer in the Conservatory,
Do you think Jenova struggled little enough that later, in the video, her morale "only triggered on the move and without any Leadership!" :) I think struggling is the last argument. For evaluation, the result is what matters first and foremost. Regarding obviousness - damage is never superfluous, but the question is: what is better - Shooting 3, Luck 1 - Shooting 2, Luck 2 - Shooting 1, Luck 3. If we assume we can freely upgrade these two skills twice as we see fit, which setup is preferable?
Dirty_Player;188817
Mullich's specialty isn't critical in the Conservatory, but in the battle against the Titans, Mullich would have helped save the Angel, but with Basic Shooting instead of Expert, the Sharpshooters' damage would be different and would likely require more turns,
After the Conservatory, Mullich would come out with Expert Shooting. He levels up to 5th there, doesn't he?
Do you think Enova didn't suffer enough, only to have her morale "completely collapse" in the video, and that too, without any leadership skills! :) I think suffering is the last argument. The result is what matters most when evaluating. Regarding obviousness - extra damage is never a bad thing, but the question is: what is better: - 3 ranged attack, 1 melee attack - 2 ranged attack, 2 melee attack - 1 ranged attack, 3 melee attack. If we assume that we can freely upgrade these two skills, 2 times each, according to our preference, which configuration is preferable?
If suffering is not an argument, then what difference does +1 melee attack or +3 make? But ranged attack does make a difference! As we can see from the video of the battle, Enova's sniper kills 17 griffins with a single shot, i.e., with two hits, the entire stack is guaranteed to be destroyed. And how many would Mullich kill with his basic ranged attack? Well, 12, at most 14, and that is clearly not enough to kill the entire stack in 2 hits... Enova also has the luck skill, which will also help if the melee attack doesn't work, so the choice becomes obvious... There is an option to generate mass slow, but even here, Enova looks more preferable... Oh, if it were possible to save 2 Unicorns, 1 Wizard, and 3 Angels, that would be really great!!! Eldgernon;188818
After the conscription, Mullich would come out with expert ranged attack. Doesn't he reach level 5 there?
After the conscription, yes! Mullich really looks more preferable. With expert leadership, you can even take harpies into the army!
If suffering isn't an argument, then what's the difference between +1 Block and +3?
Well, you're going to extremes. :) If the suffering of Enova's snipers and the slightly greater suffering of Mullich's are comparable, and both cases require hundreds of reloads, then suffering isn't an argument. But, for example, with Titans, I needed Block to drop 5 times in a 7-round battle. With a +1 Block skill, it could have required tens of thousands of reloads and 2 weeks of continuous loading. Clearly, there's a difference here, and I might not have achieved the result even with suffering. I'm not a great expert on battles, not even a small one, so I'm asking more experienced players: how realistic and how preferable is it to: have +3 Archery and 1 Block, or with three Blocks, can you create something so powerful that Archery isn't really needed. It would also be good to figure out if there's a difference between open battles and battles "indoors," in terms of priorities between Archery and Block.Dirty_Player;188837
But Archery does make a difference! As we can see from the battle video, Enova's snipers kill 17 griffons with a single shot, meaning that with two hits, the entire stack is guaranteed to die. And how many would Mullich kill with basic Archery? Well, 12, maybe 14 at most, and that's clearly not enough to kill the entire stack in 2 hits...
I might be saying something stupid, but I read somewhere about a tactic based precisely on NOT finishing off stacks of griffons. While these stacks of a few units are attacking the sniper screen, they are shooting down full, large stacks that have nowhere to fly in yet. Is there such a tactic, or is it nonsense?
P.S. I watched the video about Titans, but the link to the forum post doesn't open. P.P.S. I managed to test this delay a little. It's already clear that this hypothesis has some basis. Here's the data. In the champion battle with Titans, I did it like this: if Block didn't drop for the snipers in the first turn, I immediately reloaded. It dropped roughly 1 out of 10-15 reloads. Now I tried experimenting with the delay - the results immediately changed dramatically, on average I managed 6-8 times out of 10 attempts. But I have the impression that the delay time needs to be felt much more subtly than I thought. That is, if there is indeed this periodicity of random change, then it lies within the range of 0.3 - 0.5 seconds. If you don't hit exactly this interval, Block is lost. But, of course, more testing is needed.
Question about "delays" and morale. The battle has begun, Archangels are moving, and they are affected by morale. The "take-off" and "landing" points are fixed. Is it possible to use "delays" to prevent morale from affecting the Archangels?
Dirty_Player
18 years ago
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Eldgernon;188843
Well, you're really jumping to extremes. :)
Actually, it's not yet clear which is better. Mullich requires a much higher morale output than Jenova. Eldgernon;188843
I might be talking nonsense, but I read a tactic somewhere based precisely on NOT finishing off Griffin stacks. While these stacks of a few units are beating on the sniper screen, the snipers are busy shooting down full, fat stacks that have nowhere to fly in yet. Does such a tactic exist, or is it rubbish?
It's not rubbish. Any tactic that brings victory is good! Eldgernon;188843
P.S. I watched the video about the Titans, but the link to the Griffin Conservatory doesn't open for some reason.
It all works! There are even two of them there :)
Added after 11 minutes AlexSpl;188859
A question about "delays" and morale. The battle has started, the Archangels are moving and they get morale. The "takeoff" and "landing" points are fixed. Can "delays" really be used to prevent the Archangels from getting morale?
No way here. Except maybe rearranging the troops... The computer's Archangels move first, so the delays will be constant, since the computer moves with the same speed! There are two tips on how to deal with this! They help me. 1) Reduce the animation speed in battle! (Increases the delay) 2) Turn off the special effects volume (this removes the delay before battle)
Added after 2 minutes DARK_DRAGON;188849
Well, someone mentioned that they managed to take out the Titans on the first day without the help of the Griffin Conservatory, maybe someone can explain to me how to do it?
Well, not on the first, but on the second probably. Instead of Angels on the block, Silver Pegasi are used!
And here's someone who mentioned that they managed to defeat the Titans on the first day without any console commands. Can someone explain how they did it?
We take Mullich (+2 speed), level him up to level 3 (near the console on the spring or with chests near the Castle), then give him 27 snipers, 1 Wizard, and 5 centaurs (or harpies). Before the battle, place the Wizard in different slots, making sure that he casts the speed spell. At the beginning of the battle, all units on the battlefield (except the centaurs) will have the same speed – 11, but the Wizard will definitely go first (before the snipers and Titans with genies) if he is in a slot to the left of the snipers. After the speed boost, the centaurs easily outrun the Titans, and the battle comes down to the snipers having their morale drop at least 3 times before the screening units are killed and 1-2 times in a direct firefight with the Titans. When the morale drops for the first time, we kill both genie squads, and we start dealing with the Titans from the 2nd turn. I managed to save 20 snipers.
There's no way around it. Unless you rearrange your troops... The AI Archangels go first, so there will be constant delays.
But what if the Archangels are mine? No matter how long I wait, the unit that has already moved still gets morale!
In "Heroes of Might and Magic II," for example, morale is calculated after the unit has moved, and it doesn't depend on "delays" (some number is divided by another, and a third value is added to the remainder of the division, and the sum is compared to the amount of morale; if the sum is less than or equal to the morale, then morale is gained, otherwise - not).
Is it really the case in "Heroes of Might and Magic III" that morale depends on the timer? But then it turns out that by choosing "delays" in the right way, you can achieve morale for all units, which, IMHO, is nonsense. Correct me if I'm wrong.
What about my Archangels? No matter how long I wait, morale still triggers for the moving stack!
And what about the hero's leadership skill +3? If that's the case, then perhaps the same effect is happening as with the Amulet of Courage. That is, formally, morale cannot be greater than three, but the effect of the amulet somehow adds to the hero's own leadership. Perhaps the Archangels' own morale is also added to the hero's leadership, greatly increasing the chance of morale triggering. Maybe you're just not hitting the interval where the random number generator outputs 0? Because, for example, morale not triggering only happens with a delay of 5 or 13.5 seconds? AlexSpl;188905
Is it possible that in Heroes 3, morale depends on a timer? But then it turns out that by choosing the "delays" correctly, you can achieve morale triggering for all stacks, which, IMHO, is nonsense. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Yes, it turns out that this is theoretically possible. The picture could be like this. If we assume that the random number is calculated every 0.5 seconds, and the chance of a positive result is, say, 1:10, then the trigger table might look like this, for example. 0.5 sec - 0; 1.0 sec - 0; 1.5 sec - 0; ..... 6.5 sec - 1; 7.0 sec - 0; ...... 14.5 sec - 1; ... and so on. In this case, to ensure that morale triggers for all(!) stacks every(!) turn, it is enough to know the time of the mouse click for each stack with an accuracy of 0.5 seconds. But if we take into account that the positive result of the random number is quite spread out in time, and the "window" for the click may be not 0.5 seconds, but even less, then it is possible to calculate the complete morale map for all stacks only theoretically.
Is it true that in Heroes of Might and Magic III, morale depends on the timer? But then it turns out that by choosing the right "delays," you can achieve morale boosts for all units, which, IMHO, is absurd. Correct me if I'm wrong.
The question is about "delays" and morale. The battle starts, Archangels are present, and their morale triggers. The "take-off" and "landing" points are fixed. Could "delays" be used to prevent the Archangels' morale from triggering?
The landing point was different. The Archangels attacked the same stack each time. I tried placing it in different slots – it didn't help. I only managed to change the outcome by replaying from a previous save.
I know about Hero Excavator, but are there any other programs? By the way, I think Hero Excavator is cheating, and I think it should be banned. Also, which heroes are prohibited from being hired?
The following programs are also used for offline games: - Skill Tree Checker. Used to check the order in which secondary skills appear. It wasn't needed in this tournament because the necessary skills could be obtained immediately when hiring heroes. And there were no opportunities to upgrade beyond level 5. - Ballista Killer. Used in long battles for automatic control of troops and ballistas. There weren't any battles longer than 10-15 rounds in this tournament, so the program wasn't needed.
There is a corresponding forum topic about Hero Excavator, where, in my opinion, there are convincing arguments in its defense :). And there were no restrictions on heroes. Take all those you can find in the tavern. You could view the complete list of allowed heroes in the map editor. There are only no special heroes from campaigns. I wonder, can they be added to the map??? ;)
A few questions for Dirty_Player, as the map author: 1. Can all the monsters in the center of the map, on the path to the main castle (including the troglodytes in the abandoned mine), be defeated with just a griffin + ballista? Almost all of them... except for the giants. Was the trick with the giants intentional? ;) 2. What is the purpose of the Helm of Chaos artifact? Is it a random choice, or was there a hidden meaning?!
2 vbn: Is 200 gems the limit? You could have used Roland's diplomacy... with an advanced skill and a small amount of meat (for example, troglodytes from Brokhild), even storm riders would gladly join. It seems there is no limit to perfection)).
Tell me, how is the turn order of creatures determined in the following cases: 1. After morale triggers, we use "wait." 2. The same speed as the opponent's monster, and they are in the same slots.
Tell me, how is the turn order of creatures determined in the following cases: 1. After morale drops, we do a wait. 2. The same speed as the enemy monster, and they are in the same slots.
1. The turn order will be as if we immediately did a wait - the fact that the unit has already moved does not matter. 2. The attacker will have the first move.
There is a corresponding forum thread about the hero-dug item, where, in my opinion, convincing arguments in its defense are presented :).
If they ban the hero-dug item, I will still use it, because no one can prove to me that I used it! Senatоr;188986
There are only no special heroes from the campaigns. I wonder, can they be added to the map??? ;)
What do you mean there aren't??? They're all in the battle! Gelu, Dragon, Kilgor, Lord Haart, Duke Baragus... You could also hire Catherine, King Roland, Mutare, and Adriana! Senatоr;188986
A few questions for Dirty_Player, as the map author: 1. Can all the monsters in the center of the map on the path to the main castle (including the Troglodytes in the abandoned mine) be taken out with just a griffin + ballista. Almost all of them... except the gogs. Was the trick with the gogs done on purpose? ;)
Actually, the gogs were placed there originally in the original map, and you can reach the main castle through various paths. I personally snuck through from above!Senatоr;188986
2. What is the Helm of Chaos artifact for? Was it a random choice or was there a hidden meaning?!
Overall - it was a deliberate choice! I had an original idea! On the 5th floor of the mage guild there is the Fly spell!!! Using it you can fly into the castle bypassing the border guard!!! I was really hoping someone would figure this out, though the walkthrough would take 4 days... And the Helm of Chaos was needed to replenish mana for the logistics hero to fly to the castle! A very nice use of the Helm of Chaos was found by the esteemed invisible! Which, as the author, I was very happy about! Senatоr;188986
Tell me, how is the turn order of creatures determined in the following cases: 1. After morale triggers, we use wait.
The one who got the morale will act first after the wait, regardless of speed!Senatоr;188986
2. Same speed as the enemy monster and they are in the same slots.
First the attacker, then the defender, and so on alternately from top to bottom. In the next round of battle, the order changes!
