Magic in Heroes of Might and Magic V. — General

Vayshan

18 years ago

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Well, if you want, you can consider it a special kind of Orcish magic. You can think of it that way, although, as can be seen from what was written above, it could be a topic for debate (discussion). There's no need to continue further.

Loken

18 years ago

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as always, everything boils down to role-playing. Warcries are implemented as magic, and essentially, that's what they are. But since the Auchan orcs shouldn't have magic, "the player must understand that this is not magic, but simply a skill," like a paladin's healing, or a stalker's invisibility, or, or..., but it costs mana.
But the fact remains. Compare it to the fourth game, and you'll understand what magic is, and what its complete absence is, as it should be according to the lore.
This conversation is really pointless. Vikh, are you arguing like this just because of your love for this race, whose "pride" was "offended" by this phrase? :\

Майор Вихрь

18 years ago

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I wouldn't compare it to the 4th game, as the situation is quite different there, and the hero provides significant benefits both as a warrior and a mage. Also, if I remember correctly, in the 4th game, a warrior hero could become a super-hero and take down hordes of mobs. In the 5th game, however, a regular hero can only kill 2 creatures of level 7 in a single attack (excluding Krag), and only under specific circumstances. Besides that, if we disregard the shouts and direct attacks, a barbarian hero can only use Inspiration. But the developers apparently thought this was unfair and found a solution, and at the same time, found a use for what seemed like unnecessary Orc knowledge. In my opinion, this is a perfectly logical decision on the part of the developers. The question is about the method of implementation. I have already stated my position on this. I'm not arguing that the way shouts are used is similar, or rather, copies magic. However, their effects still differ from magical ones (with the exception of Horde Fury and, in some respects, Intimidating Roar). It depends on how you look at it. Simply put, creating something original and unique would be unfair to other races, because Orcs already have Blood Fury and everything that comes with it. So they created this "simple magic" that is less effective than any other magic, but at the same time, it doesn't allow the Orc to be idle. IMHO, of course.

Vikh, are you arguing just because of your love for this race, whose "pride" was "trampled" by this phrase? :[/QUOTE]
Hardly. I was expressing my opinion about the shouts because I don't consider them to be full-fledged magic, but rather a simplified alternative. I tried to prove this. I got a little carried away, unfortunately :(
the conversation is really pointless.

I already said that. In general, the argument arose only because of different viewpoints. morealyz was "looking at the root," implying a more capable implementation and actual similarity. I meant, if you can say so, the superficial meaning of the shouts, without going into the game mechanics. Which viewpoint is more objective, everyone will decide for themselves. ;)

Dracon Малласа

18 years ago

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It's not as effective as other spells, but at the same time, it doesn't allow the Orc to be idle. IMHO, of course.

I don't think it's significantly less effective than other spells. Firstly, to learn "Scream," you don't need to level up the main "Scream" skill, unlike learning the 4th level of "Chaos," which requires leveling up the "Chaos" magic. Secondly, "Scream" cannot be weakened by magic resistance or other debuffs. And finally, in different situations, "Wrath of the Horde" can kill more enemy units than, say, the Warlock's "Earth Shock."

Vayshan

18 years ago

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Orcish warcries are significantly less effective than magic. At least because they aren't magic at all – you can't bless your own troops with them (except for the Rage ability, which is their racial skill), you can't curse enemies, and you only have one warcry for damage, which is generally weaker than Earth Shock and its effectiveness is questionable, as I think it's better to boost the Rage of your own troops. There's no comparison to summoning.

Майор Вихрь

18 years ago

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I don't think it's significantly less effective than other magic; firstly, you don't need to level up the main scream to learn it.

Yes, but you need a certain hero level to obtain the ability, which isn't the case with magic.

Furthermore, the Scream cannot be reduced in any way by magic resistance or other countermeasures.

Terrifying Roar and Horde Fury are susceptible to resistance.

And finally, in different situations, Horde Fury can kill more enemy units than the Warlock's Earth Shock.

But what's the point? When an Orc has a large number of creatures, those 1-2 thousand damage points don't matter much. And I wouldn't say that. A Warlock's Earth Shock with Arcane Wave, Emerald Boots, and other enhancements is hard to beat. Not to mention that Chaos, just like Horde Fury, isn't effective in the late game.

Loken

18 years ago

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Shouts are not just a formality; their essence is the same. Moreover, all spell deflection effects also apply to the Horde's Fury.

Furthermore, the Shout cannot be worsened in any way, such as by reducing magic resistance or using the same blocking effects.

What should I believe?

In different situations, the Horde's Fury can eliminate more enemy units than the Warlock's Earth Shock.

Haha. Well, I wouldn't say that happens often. Hypothetically, if you have a 10th-level Warlock and a Barbarian with 10,000 warriors, there's nothing to compare, but in general... it's not a very good example.
And of course, magic is much stronger than shouts. Can a mass bless with +1 attack and 20 fury be compared? Well, or whatever the numbers are...
And for the most part, shouts last for 1-3 turns. These are buffs. But Light is limited only by the amount of spellpower.

Added after 56 seconds
while I was writing the post and getting distracted, you guys managed to spam a lot...

In reply to Loken

Amko

18 years ago

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Loken;186022

what should I believe?

Believe me;)

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GOR

18 years ago

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+. noun. the fact of neutralizing/deflecting screams (cries, shrieks, squeaks) *well... you proved this fact yourself (=*
+. requires mana *yes... not everything that requires mana is magic (= but mana requirement is an attribute of any spell)*
-. does not depend on witchcraft *or maybe it does... but it doesn't seem so)*
-. not available to Orcs *yes)*

Although I still don't understand what difference it makes whether these screams (cries, shrieks, squeaks) can be considered magic or not. In any case, this skill will have to be taken into account when considering "real magic" (they don't discuss, for example, the power of the Order of Order by comparing it only with the Order of Order).

P.S.

can a mass bless with +1 attack and 20 morale really be compared?

I think that a comparison with the "prayer" of the Order would be more appropriate here. Even though prayer does not require mana and has a stronger effect (but does not require a separate ability - one prayer is worth three cries).

P.S. P.S.

...hordes don't rule in the late game

honestly, it's a quote from the strategy section of Warcraft fans (=

In reply to GOR

Vayshan

18 years ago

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GOR;186057

+. noun. the fact of neutralizing/deflecting screams (cries, shrieks, squeaks) *well... you proved this fact yourself (=*
+. requires mana *yes... not everything that requires mana is magic (= but after all, the attribute of any spell is the requirement of mana*

The demon's "hellfire" ability requires mana to maintain, but that's not magic. So, the orc's mana costs are purely symbolic; otherwise, it would be at least strange that he raises his rage for free.

GOR;186057

honestly, it's a quote from the strategy section of Warcraft fans (=

I don't understand, what does Warcraft have to do with it? Do you disagree that the chaos/rage of the Horde weakens over time?

GOR

18 years ago

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I don't understand what Warcraft has to do with it? Do you disagree that the chaos/rage of the Horde weakens over time?

I just said what I said (= If you look at any forum with a "Orc Strategy" topic, you'll see the phrase: "No! Orcs only rule at the beginning! They crush BM wisps! But God forbid the Night Elves reach the bears! No mine will help! And no vipers in the air, even with support from bats!"
Don't look for any hidden meaning in this (=

Regarding the topic:
Of course, both chaos and shouts will eventually cease to be the main ways to win. This cannot be said, for example, about the school of light magic - the relevance of "stone skin" and "haste" (and also "punishing strike" and similar spells) is eternal *the same story applies to the opposite of light - dark magic*. Although I consider the school of summoning magic to be somewhat useless - apart from "raising the dead," there is nothing worthwhile there.

Vayshan

18 years ago

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There are a lot of useful spells, for example, summoning a swarm of wasps can push enemies back 0.6 on the scale, which is quite significant, even though the spell itself is simple. Summoning a hive is also a harmful spell – you have to divert attention to destroy it. Things like Crystal and Wall of Swords are generally very effective at any stage of the game. Fan and Shield are more useful in the mid-game; in the late game, they are not as helpful, although it can vary. From all this, it follows that summoning is one of the most versatile types of magic, suitable for all situations.
P.S. But in general, people will come along who take Utopia with only Hunter and Fire Trap spells and will criticize your post. So, I wouldn't be so categorical about summoning.

morealyz

18 years ago

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another question

I rarely level up light magic, and in 3.0 I haven't played with it even once, but in previous versions, dodge didn't protect against town towers. Has this been fixed? Or is it supposed to be this way?

Vayshan

18 years ago

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It’s most likely designed this way so that dodging doesn’t protect against towers because it’s not a full-fledged ranged attack; the attack isn’t performed by creatures, and the damage depends on the town’s level. It’s most likely an “essential” mechanic, and therefore, it’s impossible to defend against it.

GOR

18 years ago

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P.S. Actually, people will come along who take Utopia with just traps and fire traps and tear your post apart.

Well, I'm just glad (= I'm not saying that only I'm right, I can be convinced (=
Although I still don't use the summon spell...

/sorry for the off-topic and spam, but I can't say anything specific about the topic/

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