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I'm currently playing the Orc campaign. How could it be that a race that despises magic is the only one in the game with spellcasting creatures that have infinite mana???
And these warcries too. They're essentially no different from regular spells. Couldn't they have made a truly non-magical race? The Orcs aren't living up to their intended role...
Майор Вихрь
18 years ago
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Yeah, and what will the orcs do if they don't shout? Of course... It's great to directly attack the enemy and with incredible persistence kill one creature of level 6 or 7.
They don't really differ from ordinary spells.
Not at all. Warcries are much simpler than they seem. Increasing creatures' attack damage is, of course, great. It's an overpowered cheat spell. But I don't remember any similar spell. Forcing creatures to attack directly is definitely magic. The magic of the orc's axe. Increasing rage doesn't even come close to being magic. Frightening roar. If you call it magic, then nightmares should be considered casters. In any case, there are no similar spells, and its effectiveness compared to spells of levels 3-5 is rather doubtful. Warcry of the Horde is the only warcry that resembles a spell. But no spell is so cruelly tied to the number of creatures. Does a battle cry even resemble magic? What exactly, a mass punishing strike or something? Well, yes, especially if the caster of the punishing strike has a spellpower of one.
I'm currently playing the campaign for the Orcs. How could it be that a race that despises magic is the only one in the game that has spellcasting creatures with infinite mana???
The thing is that in Heroes, there are no races without spellcasting creatures. So the developers had to come up with a solution and give the Shamans two simple (though quite effective) spells.
Not at all. Warcries are much simpler than they seem. Increasing creatures' attack damage is, of course, great. It's an overpowered spell. But I don't remember any similar spells. Forcing creatures to attack directly is certainly magic. Orcish axe magic. Increasing rage doesn't even come close to being magic. Frightening Roar. If you call it magic, then nightmares should be considered casters. In any case, there are no such spells, and its effectiveness compared to spells of levels 3-5 is rather questionable. Horde Fury is the only warcry that resembles a spell. But no spell is so cruelly tied to the number of creatures. Does Battle Cry resemble magic? What exactly, a mass punishing strike? Well, yes, especially if the caster's spellpower is equal to one.
Yes, there aren't any such spells in magic schools, but they are still full-fledged magical spells. Not all of them, of course, but for example, the Shriek of Terror or Horde Fury – they may not be very strong, but they are quite magical. When I played, I had a rather large army, and Horde Fury dealt about 1000 damage – like an average Implosion... Vayshan;185659
The point is that in Heroes, there are no races that don't have caster creatures. So the developers had to come up with a way to give shamans two simple (though quite effective) spells.
Well, firstly, they could have not given them magic at all – nothing terrible would have happened. And secondly, what a clever solution! Since they made caster creatures, why didn't they give them mana, say, 4 units? As it is, they turn out to be the strongest spellcasters in terms of professionalism – they play with initiative in a way that no Twilight Witch could ever dream of! And they do it throughout the battle!
And by the way, did I understand correctly that the spellpower parameter is completely useless for an Orc hero? Or is it used somewhere?
Yes, exactly, there aren't such spells in magic schools, but they are still full-fledged magical spells. Not all of them, of course, but for example, "Scream of Terror" or "Wrath of the Horde" – even if they are not very strong, they are still quite magical.
They aren't magical at all... You wouldn't be scared if an orc suddenly screamed next to you, would you?:D And we'll consider the effect of "Wrath of the Horde" as the target squad's heart bursting from such screams... :) And what's magical about that? And if you mean balance, I don't think that one "Wrath" will replace magic;) Now, about the topic. What do you think about that very "Scream of Terror"? Or "Fear my roar," as they write in pirated versions?:) The spell is quite effective at high hero levels, but to get the blinding effect, you have to spend it every turn (or almost every turn, with the Battle Cry skill:) You can roughly mock the most powerful squad of the enemy at the end of the battle. Are there any other ideas?;)
The names of the spells may differ, but their essence is the same. Moreover, all spell deflection effects also apply to the Horde's Fury.
morealyz
18 years ago
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Kitty;185680
They aren't magical at all... Wouldn't you be scared if an orc suddenly roared next to you?:D And let's consider the effect of the horde's rage as the target unit's heart bursting from such screams... :) And what's so magical about that? And if you mean balance, I don't think one rage ability will replace magic;)
Come on, why are you twisting everything around? I didn't say that the orc has super magic. It's just that he has it. And by definition, he shouldn't. That's all. I just wanted to discuss this topic, but you're starting to convince me that his magic is weak. That's not the point!
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In the original, this scream is called "fear my roar." I really like it. Especially when taking cities - I would always roar at the archers, and they never fired a single shot, poor things. And then the cyclops waddled up to them, and that was it. )))
well, firstly, they could have simply not given them magic – nothing terrible would have happened.
As we can see in the Tribes of the East, it wasn't possible to create a race without spellcasting creatures. And warcries are not really magic; they cannot add attack/defense (+1 from a single warcry doesn't count), they cannot curse an enemy; there is only one warcry that deals direct damage – and that's about it. The Warchief's Word does not increase initiative, and the Terrifying Roar has several analogs among creatures that are not spellcasters, meaning the effect is more physical than magical. Most warcries are aimed at increasing rage, which is a racial skill.
Майор Вихрь
18 years ago
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Come on, why are you twisting everything around? I didn't say that Orcs have super-magic. I just said they have magic. And, by definition, they shouldn't. That's it. I just wanted to discuss this, and you're trying to convince me that their magic is weak. That's not the point!
Okay, let's go a different way. What is magic? Magic is various rituals, combinations of words, etc., that allow one to influence the world in a special, supernatural way. Everything is obvious here. In real life, we cannot summon a phoenix or create a fireball out of thin air. We can't even smite an unfortunate criminal with divine vengeance. But here's the actual definition of a warcry: a loud shout during battle, intended to encourage allies, intimidate the enemy, or call upon higher powers for support. So, how does it fit? A surge of rage, a rallying cry, a warcry – we can all call it "encouraging allies." I don't think anyone would argue with that. And there's nothing supernatural about it. Speeding up the movement of troops by hitting them with magic is definitely not supernatural. A frightening roar also fits the actual definition. The Fury of the Horde is perhaps the only cry that doesn't fit within the definition, unless you consider it a "call to higher powers," in this case, to Mother Earth and Father Sky :D And again, it all makes sense. The more troops call for help, the more help they will receive (if you want to elaborate).
Of course, the implementation of warcries is too contrived. One Orc cannot intimidate an enemy unit. The entire army – theoretically possible. But directing your "intimidation" at a specific squad is impossible. These are just game conventions. But, with the exception of the Fury of the Horde, none of the warcries are supernatural.
Loken
18 years ago
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actually, morealyz is right. essentially, it's magic. yes, if you reason and look at the root of things, and also analyze the somatic and verbal elements of spells, etc., etc..., then you can come up with a lot of things. for example, that even a swarm of wasps isn't magic, because a hero can throw a candy at a unit, and wasps will fly to it from everywhere... and no mana would be required. but, whatever you call the Orcish classes, it's magic. it's interesting, why then do "simple shouts" and "appeals to mother earth" cost mana? hehe.
morealyz
18 years ago
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Major, the abilities of the Orcs are DESCRIBED (by the developers and by you) as non-magical, but they are IMPLEMENTED as magic. You can describe it however you want – de facto, this won’t change anything. Orcs have mana, and they spend it. Besides, if we follow your logic, then all chaos magic is not magic, but “just” an appeal to higher powers – Mother Earth and Father Sky. )))
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No one has written about witchcraft among the Orcs yet...
Vayshan
18 years ago
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Orcish warcries aren't magic because in Heroes of Might and Magic 5, there are FOUR schools of magic: summoning, chaos, light, and darkness. Orcish warcries don't fit into any of these four schools. It's just something that replaces real magic for the orcs, but the fact that mana is spent – how do you imagine increasing the fury of a friendly unit by 300 units without spending mana?
Added 2 minutes later Loken;185803
for example, the Hive spell isn't magic either, because the hero can throw a candy at a unit, and wasps will fly in from everywhere... and no mana would be required.
The description of the spell says that the hero SUMMONS a swarm of wasps, not throws a candy at the enemy. If he were throwing it, there would be no questions; it wouldn't be magic.
Zybr
18 years ago
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The orc needs magic to suppress enemy spells; he has an ability for that.
The ability "Strength against Magic": Weakens all enemy spells: when calculating their effects, the enemy's magic is reduced by 1/2 of the hero's magic.
If it didn't cost mana, it could be used unlimitedly, but at least there's some limitation now.
Essentially, the fact that mana is required to use spells is what connects it to magic, but otherwise, it's not magic in itself.
It's just so the hero doesn't get bored on the battlefield and constantly attacks enemies.
Майор Вихрь
18 years ago
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As I said, the shouts are contrived and limited by a number of game conventions. But mana is spent not even because it is necessary to limit the number of times shouts are used. It was done only to find a use for those 10 percent of stats that go into knowledge. Similarly, the developers found (though not quite successfully) a use for the 5 percent that goes into witchcraft. But making an Orc hero whose knowledge and mana are permanently equal to one another somehow doesn't feel very heroic. However, if we talk about the game mechanics, then, of course, any shout is a spell. I don't know much about programming, but I assume that shouts are something like a school of magic in the software code called "shouts" with certain functions, which, although different, the fact that they are used is in no way different from magic, learned in a special building. However, runes, if we continue to develop the logic, are already something else, because they are not cast by the hero, but by each creature separately, and mana is not spent.
shouts are DESCRIBED (by the developers and you) as non-magic, but IMPLEMENTED as magic
Okay, can you then try to describe an approximate scheme of NON-MAGIC shouts? Hmm... is it the same thing, but without mana cost? :O
besides, if you follow your logic, then all chaos magic is not magic, but "just" an appeal to higher powers - mother earth and father sky. )))
Apparently, the emoticons don't tell you anything, or you simply ignore them. Laughter in this case meant a joke. The principle of operation, like the fury of the horde, remains a mystery to all magic in the game (all magic in general).
In general, morealyz, if you like to have the last word, then I give you that opportunity ;) Write everything you think about my message, I will not answer, because the question raised is absolutely absurd, it does not depend on anything at all, etc., etc. Moreover, you will not be able to convince me, just as I will not be able to convince you.
morealyz
18 years ago
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What nonsense. I had no intention of arguing just for the sake of arguing. I wanted to have a discussion, but you resorted to personal attacks...
