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Offline kien
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#1
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Loken;174347
besides, it has long been proven that defense in Heroes of Might and Magic III is significantly more effective than attack.
Did you mean primary or secondary skills?
Спортсменом можешь ты не быть, но пыль в глаза пустить обязан!
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Offline Fireball
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#2
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it has long been proven that defense in the third game is significantly more effective than attack
To be precise, the Attack and Defense skills are roughly equal and have advantages depending on the situation. However, if you compare specialists (say level 15-20 and beyond) in Attack and Defense, assuming both have Expert Attack and Expert Defense (proper builds), the Defense specialist turns out to be stronger.
If we're talking about a hero's attack and defense stats, an advantage of a few points in attack often proves more effective than in defense. But as the gap grows, defense specifically takes over; that's why without magic, a top-tier swamp dweller is significantly stronger than a top-tier Barbarian. That's why Tankozavr is Tankozavr (do you know how dragon tooth fragments are obtained? Exactly: they send Tazar with Expert Earth into the Dragon Utopia, and the dragons break their own teeth) + the swamp has many sturdy units.
because taking only 10% damage is imba
Well, you're exaggerating a bit. For that to happen, Tazar would need to be level 50:
0.3(defense cap)*0.7(Expert Shield)*(1-0.15-50*0.05*0.15)(Defense+spec)=0.1
At a typical level 20, you get approximately 15% damage, but only if your unit's defense is higher than the enemy's attack by 28 — which only happens against neutrals.
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Offline AmberSoler
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#3
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Fireball;181309

Well, you're exaggerating a bit. For this to happen, Tazar needs to be level 50:
0.3 (defense cap) * 0.7 (Expert Shield) * (1-0.15-50*0.05*0.15) (Defense + Specialization) = 0.1
At a typical level of 20, this results in approximately 15% damage, but only if your unit's defense is 28 higher than the enemy's attack – this is only relevant against neutral creatures.
If we analyze this point in detail, we should consider one nuance. The fact is that when the maximum difference between your hero's defense and the enemy's attack is reached (as seen in the formula you provided – the coefficient of 0.3), no spell that modifies defense – including Expert Shield – will have any effect. The total damage will still not fall below 0.3. Only the secondary skill Defense (and Tazar's specialization, of course) can reduce this value:

0.3 (defense cap) * (1-0.15-50*0.05*0.15) (Defense + Specialization) = 0.1425

To achieve a damage reduction to 10%, the hero needs to reach level 69. And, accordingly, in the case of maximum hero development (let's assume level 108 is the maximum), the damage will be only 1.20%... Now that would be a tank! :) Although, this point should still be checked somehow...
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Offline Fireball
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#4
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The thing is, when the maximum difference between your hero's defense and the enemy's attack is reached (which can be seen from the formula you provided – a coefficient of 0.3), no spell that modifies defense – including the Expert Shield – will work. The total damage will still not drop below 0.3.
Interesting, I didn't know about this nuance. Maybe I have a very old version of the physics engine, but I didn't notice this fact there (if it's not actually in the manual, although you know better, then maybe it should be added. Moreover, in the version of the physics engine that I have on my computer, an example is considered with a cap of 0.3 and the Expert Shield, and the multiplier of 0.7 is present). And in the real game, the chance to notice it is extremely rare. But even just 21% damage at level 20 seems like a sufficient boost.
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Offline AmberSoler
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#5
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Fireball;181409
That's interesting, I didn't know that. Maybe I have a very old version of the physics engine, but I didn't notice this fact... Moreover, in the version of the physics engine that I have on my computer, the example considers a cap of 0.3 and an Expert Shield, and the multiplier of 0.7 is present). And in the real game, the chance to notice it happening is extremely rare. But even just 21% damage at level 20 seems like a sufficient boost.
The multiplier of 0.7 is always present in the formula for calculating the total damage - if we consider the calculation in general terms. However, in the game, there is an internal limitation that the damage of the enemy cannot be reduced by artifacts and spells to less than 0.3 of the actual damage.

Which specific point is being considered in the reference guide? Let me know, and I'll take a look to see what's going on.
Fireball;181409
If it's really not in the manual, although you know better, maybe it should be added.
I'm creating a section on tactical tips in the game. There are too many different nuances that are difficult to attribute to any specific topic... I'll put them all together, which will be much more convenient for the user.
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Offline Fireball
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#6
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Which specific point is being discussed in the reference? Give me some context, and I'll take a look at what's going on there.
In the new version, which you linked in your signature (accessed through a website), there are no specific numerical examples in the "Damage Calculation in Battle" section. However, one of the older versions had the following example:
20 angels with an attack of 21 attack 20 angels with a defense of 60,
+ the defending side has the "Armor Expertise" skill, and the attacking side does not have an attack skill, + a "Shield" spell of the "Expert" level is cast on the angels being attacked.
Damage calculation: Initial damage U1 = 20 * 50 = 1000 (1 angel deals a constant damage of 50), defense is greater than attack by 60-21 = 39 => damage U1 will be reduced by 39 * 2.5% = 97.5%, but the maximum can be 70%, so U2 = U1 - U1 * 70% = 300, the hero has the "Armor" skill => U3 = U2 - U2 * 15% = 255, then we take into account the "Shield" spell U = U3 - U3 * 30% = 178.5, or after discarding the fractional part U = 178 - the resulting damage.

Of course, this is a rather rare nuance, but it will become noticeable when the defense advantage is 23 or more. And if we take into account that the unit may already have the "Stone Skin +6" spell and is defending, then for the Swamp faction, this scenario will not be so rare, and the hero may also have a "Titan's Shield."
In general, since the Swamp is a defensive faction and often has to take the first hit, I believe that one of the main points in its tactics is to constantly estimate the damage that it is about to receive, while for many other factions, it is more important to know how much damage they will inflict first.
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Offline AmberSoler
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#7
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This example with damage calculation wasn't mine; initially, the topic was created based on various posts on the Dungeon forum. Then, I completely reworked this calculation and re-explained everything according to my observations... So, it's better to remove this quote; it's inaccurate.

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Fireball;181435
In general, since the Swamp is a defensive faction and often has to take the first hit, I believe that one of the main points in tactics is to constantly estimate the damage that will be received, while for many other factions, it is more important to know how much damage they will inflict first.
I completely agree. It is enough to have an advantage in defense over the opponent's attack of about 15 units to completely minimize your losses... With a well-planned defensive tactic, of course...
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Offline vbn
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#8
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Taking this opportunity, I would like to inform you that Dirty_Player, together with vbn, has started developing a program to calculate the damage inflicted by various monsters in battles in Heroes III, taking into account the parameters and skills of heroes, hero and monster specializations, spells, luck modifiers, artifacts, and more. The program is called HMM3_Damager.xls.
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Клан Homo homini

Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
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Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth...
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Offline AmberSoler
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#9
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When is the beta test scheduled? ;)
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Offline vbn
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#10
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What is planned requires more than a month of work, considering real-life commitments. And right away, I would like to clarify one point with the experts: when calculating the damage dealt, the program calculates everything smoothly, but an unclear situation arises with the calculation of damage from some level 1 troops to level 7 troops. Example. For a hero without an attack skill, with an attack of 0, on neutral ground: 010 halberdiers deal 07-011 damage to an archangel, while the formulas show 08-012; 100 halberdiers deal 79-119 damage to an archangel, while the formulas show 80-120. For any number of troops, one unit of damage is lost. And this is the case for attacks from many (but not all) level 1 troops on some level 7 troops. If anyone knows, please explain what the catch is.
Клан Homo homini

Charity suffereth long, and is kind; charity envieth not; charity vaunteth not itself, is not puffed up,
Doth not behave itself unseemly, seeketh not her own, is not easily provoked, thinketh no evil;
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
Beareth all things, believeth all things, hopeth all things, endureth all things. Charity never faileth...
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