Wyverns — Stronghold

РЕКРУТ

18 years ago

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I believe that when a hero engages a single group of (identical) neutral creatures, it's better to choose Dark units (especially when the neutrals are weak – to avoid a prolonged battle). Regeneration and poison will be useful. However, when a hero engages another hero or a group of different neutral creatures, then Pao-Kai units become more useful. In general, if you have to choose one upgrade out of two, it becomes clear that one is more beneficial with a small number of creatures, while the other is more beneficial with a larger number:smile38:

HumanSt

18 years ago

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to Major Whirlwind
"That's correct. But only Paoka can be resurrected; others simply die without a chance of being revived."
That's exactly what I'm saying: the more damage the Paoka absorb, the fewer losses there will be, because you can revive at least some of them! This is the only way for the Orc to reduce losses, so there's no choice.

"Yes, and also, it's not the Paoka's greatest strength. And the enemy hero's magical abilities."
Their initiative is normal; in a pinch, you can speed them up with a Warlord or hero – you'll still be at an advantage. Well, magic is a real problem for Orcs, what can you do...

In reply to HumanSt

Майор Вихрь

18 years ago

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HumanSt;178758

to Major Vikhr
That's exactly what I'm saying: the more damage the Paoka take, the fewer losses there will be, because you can resurrect some of them, even if not all! This is the only chance the Orcs have to reduce their losses, so there's no choice.

But here, there's no choice to be made. It's not reasonable to put the Paoka in harm's way when fighting neutrals. I've already written about how many of them can be resurrected. And the AI, when it knows it has little chance of winning, attacks weak units that can deal a lot of damage, and very often chooses Centaurs, or Executioners (although, rarely), or Orcish Warriors (specifically them). Sometimes Goblins might get targeted, as the attack goes unanswered against them.

HumanSt;178758

They have decent initiative, and if necessary, you can speed them up with a Warlord or hero - you'll still be at an advantage. Well, magic is just a curse for Orcs, what can you do...

I'm not saying they have low initiative. I'm just saying it's not the highest, not even close to the highest. And that can play a crucial role. Speeding them up with a hero is not an option, as it deals too much damage. Where the Warlords came from is unknown; we were talking about the case when only Paoka are left. Otherwise, I wouldn't emphasize them so much. It's much more beneficial to speed up Cyclops, Centaurs, and Executioners, but in this situation, the latter are ruled out.

Lord Vampire

18 years ago

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Electric wyverns are awesome! I don't know what they're called, but they can also devour corpses, so they're pretty cool creatures.

In reply to HumanSt

Halfogre

18 years ago

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HumanSt;178617

...for an Orc who doesn't know how to resurrect warriors with magic, this can only be done with the "Carrion Eater" (if anyone knows another way, let me know)

So, I'm writing about it. Orcs often level up their siege engines, and if you upgrade the first aid tent, you can use it to resurrect units. +100 health per resurrection. Also, Cyclops heal with Goblins, they can't be resurrected this way, but nevertheless, you shouldn't forget about this possibility.

But I don't like the electric breath, because the damage is DIVIDED among all the units it hits. That is, the more of them there are, the less damage each one receives. In my opinion, it's better to hit one hard than to tickle three or four.

Here, too, you need to consider different nuances. For example, you can attack a stack with weak attack and damage, and therefore receive weak retaliation from it, but at the same time, you also damage a nearby strong stack and don't receive retaliation from it. Or, in this way, you can somehow damage archers who are covered by other units. There are cases where the use of electric breath is even more justified. For example, I had a battle with a Necromancer, he had a huge number of skeleton archers, covered, and next to them were 5 skeletons with shields. And the situation was such that I couldn't block the archers, and my archers would deal 50% damage to them, because this small group of skeletons with shields protects their neighbors from being shot. So, if there were no Wyverns, I would have to spend a turn of some stack of warriors with the ability to deal a huge amount of damage to kill these damned 5 skeletons, or be content with 50% damage from archers to the enemy archers. But as it was, I hit with electricity at once at 3 stacks and accidentally destroyed these 5 skeletons with shields.

_Prizrak_

18 years ago

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Did I miss something, or has everyone forgotten about the regeneration of the green creatures? They have it innately; they don't need to spend action points, but it works less effectively...

Майор Вихрь

18 years ago

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More likely, they just got overwhelmed. In my opinion, it's a questionable unit. It can be useful, but not very often. What I dislike most about them is their weakness. 105 HP for a level 6 unit is extremely low. If the enemy is casting spells, shooting, or hiding in invisibility, and the paladins are dealing massive damage, then the wyverns can only poison them. And even that isn't very effective. They're only slightly more effective than the assassins' poison, when comparing the damage increases, but assassins can shoot! However, under the command of Shack, they will look more impressive, and you can start considering choosing them.

_Prizrak_

18 years ago

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I have Wyverns for quite a while because no one attacks them early on. I'm playing as Goshak, so the most dangerous units are, without a doubt, the Wolf Riders and Centaurs. That's why I start by killing them first. Due to their special ability and frenzy, the Wolf Riders can take a lot of damage while also dealing damage to the enemy. And then, who's next? There are also the Tormentors, which are also a very dangerous unit. With 2 attacks and such stats, they become a killing machine, so you have to choose who to attack... It's hard to decide. And the Shamans and Cyclops are also constantly attacking... That's why there's no point in making the Pawns more durable; they already manage to do a lot of things without it... That's why Shax doesn't seem very effective, in my opinion.

Added 5 minutes later
I missed the word "live" in the first sentence.

Loken

18 years ago

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What a coincidence. Mine keep dying all the time. Maybe because they can fly, while the others can't. Or maybe because the enemy prefers to eliminate them first. Anyway, I prefer to take... whatever's closest. The green (dark, hahaha) wyverns are cool. They look funny. The Paokai is yellow and looks like a piece of undigested food expelled from the body through the intestines, having been significantly roughened up by being squeezed through an overly tight sphincter. Well, yeah, that's pretty much what they look like. The downside is that the damage from electricity is divided equally among all adjacent stacks, so you can't quickly take one of them out of the game. The upside is that this strange method can be used to attack shielded archers. Another upside is that the Paokai likes decay, which means you can revive it with the bodies of the fallen. That's why I use green wyverns. Yes, exactly them. Except for those times when I use the Paokai. After all, it was so awesome in Messiah. That's why, for all the reasons mentioned above, I chose the third option in the poll on this important issue.

In reply to Майор Вихрь

HumanSt

18 years ago

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Major Whirlwind; 178781

Here, you don't have a choice. It's not reasonable to expose the Paoka to attacks in battles against neutrals. I've already written about how many of them can be resurrected.

You should try it once before criticizing. In battles against neutrals, the Paoka don't suffer significant losses and are easily resurrected. I'll reveal a terrible secret to you: under the command of a hero, the combat effectiveness of units increases dramatically. Consequently, fewer of them die. So, there are no problems with neutrals (if, of course, any corpses remain).

Major Whirlwind; 178781

And the AI, when it knows it has little chance of winning, attacks weak units capable of dealing high damage and very often chooses Centaurs, or Executioners (although, rarely), or Orcish Warriors (specifically them). Sometimes Goblins might be targeted because the attack goes unanswered.

The AI will attack those it can reach first, and it's not that difficult to make it attack the Paoka (although not always).

Major Whirlwind; 178781

It's unclear where the leaders came from; we were talking about the case when only Paoka remained.

I think you misunderstood me slightly. I was talking about the advanced difficulty level in general. Sometimes, in that mode, you have to eliminate the Paoka twice, and at the same time, there may still be other troops remaining, including leaders

In reply to HumanSt

Майор Вихрь

18 years ago

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HumanSt;178912

You should try it once and then criticize it.

Okay, since you're so confident in this tactic, I'm waiting for confirmation in the form of replays. Maybe you'll manage to convince me, this critic who hasn't tried using wyverns.

HumanSt;178912

The AI will attack those it can reach first, and making it so that these are the Peasants isn't that difficult (not always, though).

Really? And aren't you considering the case where it can reach more than just the wyverns? Or are all your neutrals slow, and do you never fight dragons, paladins, and other ranged units? "Not always" is putting it mildly...

slayer of dragons

18 years ago

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both have their advantages, but I personally use PAO-Kaya in 2 out of 3 cases.

MERIDIAN

18 years ago

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In my opinion, Dark Wyverns are better because they don't cause any harm, and I don't even need to mention the poison and regeneration. Plus, it's more pleasant to look at Dark Wyverns than at a hairless bat.

_Prizrak_

18 years ago

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because they don't harm their own units

So, are you saying that Paoka inflict damage on their own creatures? This has already been discussed before. That's impossible!

Vayshan

18 years ago

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No, Paoka definitely doesn't deal damage to its own units. I've tried to make it happen, but it's impossible; I don't know where this information came from. As for which of these two upgrades is better, I think it's not that simple. People usually consider only poisoning a single stack, but you can attack one stack first, then another... How much damage will that be in total? Five units per turn for one Wyvern – let's say a Wyvern has 30 attack, which is 150 damage per turn, multiplied by three – that's 450. For example, 15 Bears (dwarven, of course), 30 Cerberuses, etc., will die, and no one will stop you from slowly poisoning the rest or refreshing the poison on the first stack. Of course, I doubt I've convinced anyone here, but in my opinion, you need to look not only at the obvious advantages but also at the hidden ones. And regeneration is definitely not a serious thing; it's just "a bonus."

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