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Posts from Rock of Grimheim

Maps: Tribes of the East
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AstralLein
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Offline Magnificent
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#49
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AstralLein
Well, the next battle can be fought even with some losses. The main thing is to win.

The map patch isn't final, just so you know. Cutting down the number of Sky Warriors was planned.
I haven't played "Rock Grimheim," but I've seen these waves (as Niksan played through them on stream). The enemies are very strong. And I'm curious, does this really require "grandmaster-level tactics" (do you know a sequence of actions that allows you to win in any situation, but players lack the skill to figure it out)? Or are these battles initially designed so that they can only be won through many reloads and with a certain amount of luck?
By the way, I played your "Price of Loyalty" on the Warrior and won; I liked it. I'll write a detailed review after completing it on the Hero.
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#50
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I have no kind words for Nixan's walkthrough, so I can only say that his playthrough was ruined even before the waves began. Besides, he lost in the third wave, not the fourth. It is assumed that the player will have to sacrifice something for the sake of victory. The map has plenty of creatures to replace losses.
Карты для героев 5

"Плата за любовь"
"Путь некроманта"
"Темные грани"
"Рок Гримхейма"
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Offline Magnificent
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#51
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AstralLein
I don't have kind words for Nixon's walkthrough, so I can only say that his walkthrough was ruined even before the waves started. Besides, he lost in the third wave, not the fourth.

It is assumed that the player will have to sacrifice something for the sake of victory. The map has plenty of fodder to replace losses.
I didn't watch the entire stream, only the final part of the scenario (these waves). As I understand from your answer, the problem is not in the tactics in the battles themselves, but only in the fact that you need to prepare correctly for them? And then the player will win anyway (with the right actions in these battles), right?
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#52
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Overall, yes. The player needs to have a powerful army, good character development, and stats. Between waves, additional tasks need to be completed on the surface. But the random factor is still significant: the calculation relies on the AI making poor decisions, but sometimes it can act intelligently. There's nothing you can do about that. After all, heroic difficulty is meant to be challenging.
Карты для героев 5

"Плата за любовь"
"Путь некроманта"
"Темные грани"
"Рок Гримхейма"
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Offline Magnificent
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#53
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AstralLein
But the element of randomness is still significant: the calculations rely on AI making poor decisions, but sometimes it can act intelligently. There's nothing you can do about that. After all, Heroic difficulty is meant to be challenging.
I don't know, I had the idea that maybe these battles aren't designed to be won simply by overwhelming the enemy with troops and stats, but you seem to be suggesting that the player should come up with some kind of tactical solution. Like the authors of chess problems require you to find several non-obvious moves. Although in Heroes, you can't really organize something like that in its pure form, because randomness in battles plays a big role. You yourself admit that some luck is needed here, but that's part of the game. I'm more interested in this topic as a map maker, because I often have doubts about balance (how to properly account for randomness) when I'm creating maps.
ExampleOn my map, Ravenna comes to the player on a certain day, and you need to defeat her. While working on making the scenario more difficult, I decided to test how much I could strengthen Ravenna (each time adding more and more troops to her through the console) so that the battle could still be won. The problem is that at some point, the outcome of the battle was determined by luck and the defense of the creatures. And I had a question: how correct is it to make such a difficulty increase? In the end, I decided that "we're playing Heroes, not casino" and left the option where the battle can simply be won normally, and the player is only asked to think about how to avoid large losses (Ravenna has Chaos magic, the battle takes place on the fifth week). On the one hand, you could say that I did the right thing. On the other hand, for strong players, the map remained practically without the risk of losing...
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Offline RailagMalassaWarrior
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#54
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"Grandmaster-level tactics" are present here, referred to as the "trial and error method." The AI heroes have very different skill builds and behaviors. You need to try different strategies, different builds, and different army compositions (more than 50 dwarven dragons, which can be recruited from both castles, helped me a lot in the last battle). The AI is strong, but not invincible; sooner or later, you will find the right tactic and defeat even the monsters from the later waves. Yes, randomness will make the task more difficult, and your "archery range" might get very hot, but the feeling of victory, knowing that you managed to outplay them, is worth it.

Дракон  крылами дом наш укрывает,
Страж ловчий сидит в укрытьи, не дремает...
Мегеры со смехом кинжалы свои точат,
Великий минотавр врагов убить всех хочет!

В пещерах мрачных Гидры проживают,
Наездники на ящерах - добычу загоняют
Безликие старинные за всеми наблюдают,
Загадочны - как тьма, но ответы они знают...

неизвестный автор - 910 Год Седьмого Дракона

 

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#55
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I understand what you mean. But I still think that without casinos, it's too easy, and I need them for the mega-scripts of combat AI. We have a couple of mapmakers who can write them at a decent level.

Well, there are tactics. For example, the Hive can send these celestial warriors into a permanent knockout with a high spell power. Despite their powerful ice magic. But at the same time, it might not work. Previously, they could be one-shot with cavalry... unfortunately, it was too simple a strategy, so I disabled it. By the way, the last wave has regular angels. You can throw them against the celestial ones.

I've long since gotten used to the suffering on my maps. If anything, there are always easier difficulties. You could call hardcore a kind of trademark of my work, but... in my opinion, there are plenty of maps on the forum that are more difficult.
Карты для героев 5

"Плата за любовь"
"Путь некроманта"
"Темные грани"
"Рок Гримхейма"
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Offline Farid55
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#56
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I finally completed the map on veteran difficulty in 161 days. The last wave wasn't as strong as I expected, and I managed to win both battles on the first try. In the first battle, Corenak Ulie knocked out the celestial warriors, and the rest of the troops were killed by summoned creatures. And with Giovanni, it was even easier, as the catapult didn't break down the gates. I took it out, put the angels under his control, and they killed all the troops themselves, while the warriors were killed by vampires and nosferatu.
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#57
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It sounds like mixed angels should be in the fourth wave, and only celestial ones in the fifth biggrin. I’ll probably do some rebalancing of the last two waves. But I need to think it over carefully. Although, of course, the current concept also makes sense: the difficulty of the fifth wave lies in reaching it without huge losses)

Glad to hear about your victory! Thanks for the walkthrough!
Карты для героев 5

"Плата за любовь"
"Путь некроманта"
"Темные грани"
"Рок Гримхейма"
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Offline Magnificent
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#58
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AstralLein
I've long since gotten used to the suffering in my maps. If necessary, there are always easier difficulty levels available. You could call hardcore a kind of trademark of my work, but... in my opinion, there are plenty of even more difficult maps on the forum.

I have no doubt that there are very difficult maps on the forum. But what kind of difficulty do they offer? I can also greatly increase the number of troops and enemy stats, and somehow win through incredible luck with loading screens, and say that "my map can be completed on Hero difficulty, and if you can't do it... it's just that I like hardcore, so suffer." But will players be happy to play such a map?

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#59
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There's a simple way to have it both ways: adapt the map to different difficulty levels. Luckily, I've been doing this since my very first map. One version is for those who want to test their skills, while the other is for those who don't want to take risks. Or, like you: first, explore the map with a Barbarian, and then, with that knowledge, tackle it with a Knight. That's also a great strategy. Besides, I want the map to be enjoyable for me too, and I don't like easy walks. By the way, maps designed for complex global challenges, like waging war on multiple fronts simultaneously, seem more challenging to me than just relying on brute force and stats.
Карты для героев 5

"Плата за любовь"
"Путь некроманта"
"Темные грани"
"Рок Гримхейма"
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Offline Magnificent
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#60
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AstralLein
There's a simple way to have your cake and eat it too: adapt the map to different difficulty levels. Luckily, I've been doing this since my very first map. One version is for those who want to test their skills, while the other is for those who don't want to take risks.
Difficulty levels partially solve the problem, I agree. But it should be noted that Recruit and Warrior are not very well implemented from the start, as the AI plays quite strangely in those modes. And not everyone who is used to playing on Hero enjoys hardcore gameplay with constant reloads.
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#61
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The AI plays very strangely on any difficulty level. I became especially convinced of this while developing this particular map. There were all sorts of things happening at different stages...

You are probably very scared by Nixan's speeches, but I can assure you, as an experienced PvE player and map creator who has seen the entire Walkthrough, that you can compile a whole manual from those streams on how not to play PvE in Heroes 5. The outcome is so predictable that it's almost funny, but I, Zobr, the lunar phase, butterflies on the other side of the Earth are to blame for everything, but not the player. Nixan started well. But as soon as he reached the surface, something strange began... but let's not talk about sad things. Fairly, he correctly pointed out some of my mistakes, but that's just a drop in the ocean...

So, my position is like dwarven steel: I will not adjust the balance for those who play the Hero but don't remember anything in the texts, ignore side quests, don't even want to understand a little about the new Faction on a map about that Faction, and then are surprised that they didn't win. But I will definitely consider normal Walkthroughs, where it is clear that, for example, the Sky Warriors in the fourth wave drink too much blood, and in the fifth, they don't drink anymore.

A map creator is a creator who works a lot and does it for free for himself, for the game, and for its community. He must be proud and distinguish between harsh but justified criticism and unpleasant nonsense. This is my position regarding Nixan's Walkthrough. As for the difficulty policy... I really love games by Miyazaki. Such a relaxing, kind game for everyone... What is the source of inspiration, that is the policy) And I have never been inspired by the Master, but I am a fan of the Red Haven formula. And his maps are definitely not simple)
Карты для героев 5

"Плата за любовь"
"Путь некроманта"
"Темные грани"
"Рок Гримхейма"
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Offline Magnificent
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#62
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AstralLein
So, my stance is as solid as dwarven steel: I won't adjust the balance for those who choose a Hero but don't remember anything from the texts, ignore side quests, don't even try to understand the new Faction on the map, and then wonder why they didn't win. However, I will definitely consider normal playthroughs where it's clear that, for example, the celestial warriors in the fourth wave consume too much blood, but in the fifth wave, they don't.

A map creator is an artist who works hard and does it for free, for their own enjoyment, for the game, and for its community. They should be proud and be able to distinguish between harsh but justified criticism and unpleasant negativity. This is my position regarding Nicksan's playthrough. As for the difficulty policy... I really love games by Miyazaki. Such relaxing, kind games, for everyone... The source of inspiration determines the policy. And I've never been inspired by Master, but I am a fan of the Red Haven formula. And his maps are definitely not simple.
What is the purpose of complex maps in a turn-based strategy game? To test the player's strategic and tactical skills! This is the real "challenge." If a player can lose due to their own mistakes, but with a strong game, they can guarantee themselves a victory, then this is a good balance on the Hero difficulty. However, there are situations where a player can play the entire game perfectly, but from a certain point on, they will still be forced to play a long game of chance. This should be avoided when creating maps, in my opinion. That's why I asked you if you had thought about how the player should play the final series of battles to ensure victory. This is where the discussion started.
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