Tactics for the Stronghold. — Tactics

KoR

18 years ago

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gamer-kirill;120353

to KOR
I'm just wondering how to rush with Inferno... Some people say you need to build Imps quickly. If you can build Imps, Rocs, and even Demons in the same amount of time, plus you have great Barbarian heroes (Dessa, Crag Hack, Gurnisson, Gundula), plus the low cost of building and units, plus their insane attack power, it makes for the fastest start. Without wasting time on minor things like capturing mines, you capture outer dwellings, loot treasure rooms, eliminate the guardians that prevent you from moving further across the territory, and capture Castles. The main thing is to fight more!!! You only spend money on buying Demons, Rocs... and maybe Orcs. That's your rush strategy.

As a development strategy, it's quite viable.

But we probably have different understandings of what a rush is. For me, a rush is when you arrive at the opponent's territory at the very beginning of the game and simply defeat them. No questions asked.
This happens, for example, when 30-40 Grand Elves, supported by Dwarves and Centaurs, arrive at your territory on the second week. An encounter with Elves early in the game is fatal.

As for Stronghold.
No matter how many times I've played, I always put Bears on the first week (we're talking about 160%).
...but it doesn't really give you anything.

Perhaps the idea is that if you get 3 Behemoths and 9 Rocs at the beginning of the second week, the opponent will be terrified and surrender immediately.

But if the opponent doesn't get scared... then they can counter with:
...playing as Castle: 35-40 Archers and 6 Knights + Spearmen to protect the Archers
...playing as Rampart: 20-25 Grand Elves and 6 Unicorns, + Dwarves to protect the Elves, + Centaurs
...playing as Dungeon: 100 Troglodytes, 25 Eyeballs, 10 Medusas, and 6 Manticores

As for the heroes, they are all pretty good. Valeska, Ivorn, Shakti. Not much worse than Crag or Gundula.

In short, I don't feel that there's enough of an advantage to justify a rush.

If we set aside theoretical reasoning and turn to practice.

On the heroesportal website, players post online reports. I took the 10 strongest players and analyzed their battles. A total of 112 games were played (data as of October 4, 2007).
Results:
Chosen Castle Won – Lost - Total times chosen
Castle 27 – 28 - 55
Rampart 21- 24 - 45
Tower 18 – 10- 28
Dungeon 18 – 15 - 33
Fortress 11 – 11 - 22
Conflux 6 – 0 - 6
Stronghold 5 – 19 - 24
Necropolis 4 – 2 - 6
Inferno 2 – 3 - 5
Total 112- 112 – 224
If you look at Stronghold – it was chosen 24 times, and yet they only won 5 times!!!
This is the worst result among all the Castles.

2 knight-voland

Story about Bears

If you take a certain amount of money and buy 7th-level creatures with it, then Bears will crush everyone! For example, 3 Archangels cost 15,000, and so do 5 upgraded Bears. It's clear without testing who will win :)

Bears are really cool, that's a fact. But Bears alone aren't enough.

In reply to KoR

badping

18 years ago

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KoR;120286

Reveal the secret,
tell me how to rush with the Stronghold :)
No, let me put it simpler – how can you even kill anyone with it? :))

You used to play as the Barbarian! :)

By the way, in my opinion, the rush tactic in the situation you described doesn't really work.
Even if a Barbarian with 2 Ogres and, say, 9 Imps defeats the Rampart's army, the losses will be catastrophic – losing one Ogre is not the same as, say, losing 10 Elves – it hurts, but it's bearable.
I believe that the main strength of the Stronghold lies in quickly exploring the entire map, capturing as many castles and resources as possible. Only then does the Barbarian have a chance to win. The fact that the 7th level is built in the first week already says a lot... that is, by the time of the final battle, when the Barbarians have finally gathered all their troops, even buying slow and weak units, and go into the last battle, they will most likely have more troops than the Castle or Rampart.

And clearing the map of neutrals with just Ogres and Imps is very convenient – the battles take place with almost no losses.
In my opinion, you should focus on that.

gamer-kirill

18 years ago

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2 Kor
Yes, the statistics are discouraging... but on the other hand, what is a Barbarian Castle? For me, it's not just a castle, but also the heroes. And no one doubts that Barbarian heroes have very prominent representatives. When playing as Barbarians, I don't think it's worth focusing on just one castle. With Barbarians, you can only take heroes, creatures, and spirits. The rest can be found in other castles. For me, a rush isn't always about capturing an enemy castle in the first week. Rather, it's about rapid development that makes further gameplay pointless. For example, if I take a Draconian Utopia early in the game, I might call that a rush. You can also win without fighting. I think that based on the numbers, we can say that Inferno isn't doing much better either.

badping

18 years ago

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I think the Stronghold has such poor statistics because it's rarely chosen by experienced players – not so much because it's weak, but because it's much more convenient and easier to play as a Castle or Rampart. Their building and combat tactics are stereotypical – they surround their archers with protection and shoot down approaching enemies, or they advance with a solid wall of troops if the opponent's army is clearly weaker. The Stronghold can't afford to make mistakes, otherwise it will be like a sapper's mistake – an imprudent maneuver during a battle will result in huge losses in manpower. Therefore, I think that the Stronghold still has a chance of winning; it all depends on the map conditions, the player's skill, and, of course, luck.

РУХ-ЧУДИЩЕ-ОГР

18 years ago

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I completely agree with badping. There is nothing to add.

Ley

18 years ago

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Of course, it depends on the skills and implementation of key moments in the game itself, but the Stronghold's tactics are undoubtedly versatile. Each player has their own variations on this theme, which are somewhat similar to others, but generally still different... For example: here it was said that goblins are unimproved creatures and completely useless, but I think the opposite... Does anyone know of a population like "hobgoblins doubled their population"? And these unupgraded creatures are quite capable of such a population, and so are the dogs. But this is just an example that may not offer great hopes for victory, but it characterizes itself as a separate moment in the game... 2 RUH-CHUDISCHE-OGR: your nickname can also be considered a Stronghold tactic... :D

badping

18 years ago

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For example: here, someone said that goblins are unimproved creatures and completely useless, but I think the opposite... Does anyone know of a population like "hobgoblins doubled their population"? And these unupgraded "creatures" are quite capable of such a population, and so are dogs. But this is just an example that may not offer great hope for victory, but it characterizes itself as a separate element in the game...

Exactly, it happens sometimes...
Although, perhaps, for this to happen, you need to fast for at least three days before the game, sing psalms, and walk around with your fingers crossed - otherwise, you won't be lucky. :)
By the way, I would prefer +5 Cyclops (is that how many they add?)... =)

In reply to badping

Ley

18 years ago

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badping;120672

Exactly, it happens...
Although, I guess to make this happen, you need to fast for at least three days before the game, sing psalms, and walk around with your fingers crossed - otherwise, you won't be lucky. :)
By the way, I would prefer +5 Cyclops (is that how many they add?)... =)

Precisely 5. However, the drop rate for such a population is no different from the drop rate for doubled goblins - it's better to go with the latter for about 3 months.

In reply to badping

KoR

18 years ago

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badping;120521

You used to play as Barbarians! :)
.

I did. I really like this Castle, and I used to play it a lot, but not very successfully. I eventually got disappointed.

badping;120521

By the way, in my opinion, the rush tactic in the situation you described doesn't work.
Even if a Barbarian with 2 Ogres and, say, 9 Imps defeats a Rampart army, the losses will be catastrophic - losing one Ogre is not the same as, say, 10 Elves - it hurts, but it's bearable.
.

That's what I'm saying :) It turns out to be a weak rush :)

badping;120521

I believe that the main strength of the Stronghold lies in quickly exploring the entire map, capturing as many Castles and resources as possible. Only then does the Barbarian have a chance to win. After all, the fact that the 7th level is built in the first week already says a lot...
.

Apparently, yes, there's no other way :)
In that case, you should take Dess, but I usually took Craig or Gundula :) Maybe that's why I kept losing :)

badping;120521

i.e., by the time of the final battle, when the Barbarians have finally gathered all their troops, even buying slow and weak units and go into the last battle, they will most likely have more troops than the Castle or Rampart.
And it's very convenient to clear the map of neutrals with just Ogres and Imps - the battles take place with almost no losses.
.

No, that's not true. Troops die. There are no fast units in the army, and the birds only have 60 hit points. One or two will definitely die. As a result, the army slowly dwindles. And taking the Utopia is generally unpleasant. Before I started playing as Barbarians, I played as Dungeon. There, resurrection - and no losses, I played the same way as Necropolis - the same thing. When I started playing as Stronghold, I realized - either you take the Utopia quickly at the cost of half the army, or later, when there are 8 Ogres and 30-40 Cyclops. But by that time, you will already be killed :) If anyone shares strategies for taking the Utopia with Barbarians, I will be grateful. On what week? With what army? How to position and what's the trick?

Added 14 minutes ago

gamer-kirill;120561

2 Kor
Yes, the statistics are depressing.... but on the other hand, what is a Barbarian Castle? For me, it's not just a Castle, but also the heroes. And no one doubts that Barbarian heroes have very bright representatives. When playing as Barbarians, I don't think you should focus on one Castle. With Barbarians, you can only take heroes, Ogres, and Imps.
.

I completely agree :) But I prefer to take not Ogres and Imps, but Cyclops. Bears are slow, and Imps are weak. Cyclops and Ogres are what you need! Ogres are especially good for Castle, because Castle doesn't have its own meat (only Griffins, but they are not that good).

gamer-kirill;120561

And the rest in other Castles. For me, a rush is not always capturing an enemy Castle in the first week. Rather, it's a quick development that makes further play pointless. For example, if I take the Dragon Utopia in the early stages of the game, I can call it a rush. You can win without fighting.

Until you kill the opponent, you haven't won. You run around quickly, capture everything you can, and the opponent doesn't strain, just builds Angels in the first or second week, cleans up the neutrals, quickly comes and kills you.

gamer-kirill;120561

I think that based on the numbers, we can say that Inferno is not doing any better.

Yes, things are also sad :( I once asked a famous monster from Heroezportal why he first ruled out Inferno. I received the answer: "if it lives long, it's hard to kill later"
I didn't understand why :confused: But, apparently, there is something cunning in Inferno after all.... :smile19:

In reply to Ley

Феанор

18 years ago

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Ley;120640

Does anyone know of a population where "hobgoblins doubled their population"? And unupgraded "creatures" are quite capable of such a population, as are dogs.

Just recently, I had a "hobgoblin double its population."
By the way, please explain the nuances of monster weeks and months to me!
I've discovered a terrible gap in my knowledge.

badping

18 years ago

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Apparently, yes, there's no other way.
In that case, you should take Dessa, but I usually took Kreg or Gundula. Maybe that's why I kept losing.

You know, I experimented: I took Dessa and... I still lost.
Moreover, the situation was completely idiotic: we recently played a two-player game on a Small map. I was playing as Stronghold with Dessa, and my opponent was playing as Rampart with Ivor. The map turned out to be structured as follows: in the upper half, there are 2 Strongholds (mine and a neutral one), and in the lower half, there are two Ramparts, one belonging to the opponent and the other neutral.

The development followed the previously discussed scheme: in the first week, I built a Monster Lair (I had to sell 42 Goblins into "slavery" and lose 2 Rukh in a battle for the Crystals), and with two Monsters, I cleared a path to the second castle, which was also a Stronghold. I quickly explored the surrounding areas (the second hero also gained logistics thanks to the Stone of Knowledge) and reached the border of Crulod and Avl, defeated those guarding the passage, and infiltrated the enemy territory. I reached the neutral Rampart and captured it. So, in the end, I had 2 Strongholds and 1 Rampart, with a total income of $6000 per day.
Just then, Ivor appeared around the corner. Seeing Dessa, he immediately requested reinforcements, and his army was filled with Dendroids and Gnomes, and there were also 3 Angels.
Realizing that the situation was unfavorable, Dessa rushed home, leaving the Rampart to its fate... I bought out all the Centaurs and Gnomes there (they shouldn't fall into the enemy's hands), looked at the size of the enemy army - about 50 Grand Elves, 3 Archangels, 8 Great Unicorns, 8 Guardian Dendroids, 160 Centaurs, 32 Silver Pegasi, and 60 Gnomes...

In order not to waste time and delay the inevitable, I proposed a meeting with the enemy on neutral territory. I bought out everyone I could, transferred them to Dessa, and went into battle...
In total, there were: 7 Monsters, 26 Rukh, about 20 Ogres, 54 Orcs, 80 Wolf Riders, and 220 Goblins.

The battle didn't go well from the start: among the good spells, I only had Forgetfulness, and even that was at a normal level. With the first move, the opponent cast Mass Slow, and my Goblins became disheartened - with that speed, they definitely wouldn't reach the enemy... even the movement speed of our "walking excavators," the Monsters, was reduced to 3. Casting Forgetfulness was already pointless.
The few Ogres (there were problems with wood) couldn't protect the Orcs from the Pegasi, and the Unicorns that arrived quickly destroyed both of them.
The Elves shot down the Monsters as they approached, and the Gnomes and Centaurs easily stopped my horde of Goblins.

In general, it turned out that even though I had troops from 2 identical Castles and was holding one of the opponent's cities, the Stronghold still lost.
In general, among the factors that influenced the outcome, I can highlight:
- the opponent having expert Earth magic;
- the presence of external dwellings for creatures (level 1 and 2);

In general, I don't even know what conclusions to draw other than that you need a lot of luck. Maybe the tactic of building a Monster Lair in the first week is not what you need to win?

In reply to badping

Vanechka

18 years ago

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badping;120749

Well, I don't even know what conclusions to draw other than that you need a lot of luck. Maybe the strategy of building Beasts in the first week isn't the right way to win?

Well, it's clear – the Beasts are to blame.
In your specific case, the magic was a complete failure.
And I don't understand something – with forgetfulness, how did you allow your Beasts to be shot down???
Try to imagine the opposite situation – when the armies are the same, the opponent has nothing to remove your mass slow effect or counter it, and he's so nervous that he forgets to cast "forgetfulness" on your Orcs... Instant victory...
However, I don't understand – what do the Beasts have to do with it.

badping

18 years ago

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I don't understand something – how did you allow your creatures to be killed, considering you had the Forgetfulness spell?

The Elves were led by Ivor.
Secondly, they had the first turn, during which the opponent immediately used Mass Slow. Casting Forgetfulness (which wasn't even a basic version for me) became pointless – the Elves were healed.

Try to imagine the opposite situation – when the armies are the same, the opponent has nothing to remove your Mass Slow or counter it, and they get so nervous that they forget to cast "Forgetfulness" on your Orcs... Instant victory...

Perhaps this would have been successful if I had been luckier with magic... :)
But the Barbarians had no magic at all.

Actually, I don't understand – what do the creatures have to do with it?

After all, because of them, the Orcs and Ogres suffer greatly...

In reply to Ley

РУХ-ЧУДИЩЕ-ОГР

18 years ago

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Ley;120640

2 RUKH-CHUDISCHE-OGR:
your nickname can also be considered a Citadel tactic...:D

Thank you)))))))))):smile54: :smile54:

In reply to Феанор

Ley

18 years ago

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Feanor;120738

Very recently, my "hobgoblin doubled its population."

That simply couldn't have happened (as far as I know, and I'm even checking specifically... I'm curious myself), maybe you're confusing it with the month of hobgoblins? Or, at worst (maybe...), that even such a population exists, and it doubled the growth rate of hobgoblins in the castle? Personally, I've never heard of this population at all.

Feanor;120738