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I created map templates again with a radius from 3 to 20. The distance between cities is 30 cells (or 120).
Posts from Spiral maps.
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I've added more map templates to the archive.
In addition to the previous ones, the archive now also includes templates based on the "Doomsday" map. This time, the distance between cities is greater – not 30 cells, but 40. I haven't tested them yet.
Louis Cyphre
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Hello everyone.
Last year, I noticed this thread in the forum list. I opened it, didn't understand what it was about, and closed it. Since then, I've occasionally noticed that the thread is still active and that there's some discussion going on. The other day, I finally decided to give it a try and was amazed by you, the author. My amazement came even before I opened your works. Unwavering enthusiasm – that's what I see in you. To work on this alone for more than three years and not receive even a small review with recommendations and criticism in return is, at the very least, unfair. Not knowing what to expect from these kinds of maps, I decided to do my first playthrough live (link). And I think it would be useful to briefly outline my feedback here:
There are many genres in map-making, and each has its own essence. This project is an alternative embodiment of random scenarios, where the will of the great Random determines the fate of the playthrough. This is the case in games like The Binding of Isaac, where each new attempt can be either easy, difficult, or close to impossible. Well, the concept is there; it just needs to be perfected. And in my opinion, I noticed the following shortcomings:
- There is absolutely no pleasure in simply skipping turns at the very beginning. I was playing on 200% difficulty and had to resort to this because the lack of a hero and resources led to immobilization. I recommend giving at least a random starting hero or 3000 gold and 5 units of ore to build a tavern and hire someone.
- An unpleasant situation occurs when a friendly hero with an empty movement point reserve blocks the path of another hero, who, although has movement points remaining, cannot pass further because the spiral structure does not allow it. I would like the path to be at least 2 cells wide. Heroes appear with different movement points: some have Logistics, some have Logistics as a specialty, and some have slow units. This part of the randomness should be optimized.
- When I looked at the screenshots of your works, I experienced mixed emotions: it was strange, incomprehensible, and it seemed absurd, which strongly put me off. And the reason for this is the chaotic map design. Imagine a bag of toys that has been dumped on the ground – that's roughly the association. Therefore, I think that a coherent and structured look is needed. In many places, there is a wall of 1x1 obstacle objects, and the first things that come to mind are a stone, a single mushroom, and a bush. Quite absurd, isn't it? I strongly advise you to adhere to a specific set of objects for each landscape, so that the obstacle looks like an obstacle. You can't step on a mushroom in the game, but visually it is not perceived as an obstacle at all.
- On these small maps, there are many cities, and this gives me an idea that, in my opinion, would perfectly complement your idea, namely, a playthrough for a result. I think it's no secret to anyone that the maximum number of points for a single scenario is 500, but achieving such a result is often impossible on many maps. I remind you that to get 500 points, you need to defeat everyone, dig up the Grail, and capture the required number of cities within a certain number of days. For example, you can achieve this result by capturing 16 cities and digging up the Grail in 10 days, or 17 cities in 11 days, etc. This is another reason to fix the issue of simply skipping turns from the beginning of my criticism and give the player the freedom to do a hardcore speedrun for the maximum result.
Overall, thank you for the project. I really hope that it will live on, develop, and reach its peak.
Last year, I noticed this thread in the forum list. I opened it, didn't understand what it was about, and closed it. Since then, I've occasionally noticed that the thread is still active and that there's some discussion going on. The other day, I finally decided to give it a try and was amazed by you, the author. My amazement came even before I opened your works. Unwavering enthusiasm – that's what I see in you. To work on this alone for more than three years and not receive even a small review with recommendations and criticism in return is, at the very least, unfair. Not knowing what to expect from these kinds of maps, I decided to do my first playthrough live (link). And I think it would be useful to briefly outline my feedback here:
There are many genres in map-making, and each has its own essence. This project is an alternative embodiment of random scenarios, where the will of the great Random determines the fate of the playthrough. This is the case in games like The Binding of Isaac, where each new attempt can be either easy, difficult, or close to impossible. Well, the concept is there; it just needs to be perfected. And in my opinion, I noticed the following shortcomings:
- There is absolutely no pleasure in simply skipping turns at the very beginning. I was playing on 200% difficulty and had to resort to this because the lack of a hero and resources led to immobilization. I recommend giving at least a random starting hero or 3000 gold and 5 units of ore to build a tavern and hire someone.
- An unpleasant situation occurs when a friendly hero with an empty movement point reserve blocks the path of another hero, who, although has movement points remaining, cannot pass further because the spiral structure does not allow it. I would like the path to be at least 2 cells wide. Heroes appear with different movement points: some have Logistics, some have Logistics as a specialty, and some have slow units. This part of the randomness should be optimized.
- When I looked at the screenshots of your works, I experienced mixed emotions: it was strange, incomprehensible, and it seemed absurd, which strongly put me off. And the reason for this is the chaotic map design. Imagine a bag of toys that has been dumped on the ground – that's roughly the association. Therefore, I think that a coherent and structured look is needed. In many places, there is a wall of 1x1 obstacle objects, and the first things that come to mind are a stone, a single mushroom, and a bush. Quite absurd, isn't it? I strongly advise you to adhere to a specific set of objects for each landscape, so that the obstacle looks like an obstacle. You can't step on a mushroom in the game, but visually it is not perceived as an obstacle at all.
- On these small maps, there are many cities, and this gives me an idea that, in my opinion, would perfectly complement your idea, namely, a playthrough for a result. I think it's no secret to anyone that the maximum number of points for a single scenario is 500, but achieving such a result is often impossible on many maps. I remind you that to get 500 points, you need to defeat everyone, dig up the Grail, and capture the required number of cities within a certain number of days. For example, you can achieve this result by capturing 16 cities and digging up the Grail in 10 days, or 17 cities in 11 days, etc. This is another reason to fix the issue of simply skipping turns from the beginning of my criticism and give the player the freedom to do a hardcore speedrun for the maximum result.
Overall, thank you for the project. I really hope that it will live on, develop, and reach its peak.
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Spending over three years working on this alone without receiving even a small review with recommendations in return.
Ha-ha
I've been doing this since at least 2010, and even earlier. I don't remember when this idea came to me.
But I started with "square" maps. After a few years, I realized that "corners" were unnecessary, and I started drawing spirals. Almost all my knowledge comes from those clumsy attempts I made 10 years ago and earlier.
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1. I tried to give the player a minimum of resources at the start so that they would find everything themselves.
Previously, I didn't draw spirals at all; I simply divided the original map into squares using wall obstacles. Inside this square, the hero could move around as they pleased until they went beyond its borders and moved to the next square. The idea came from there.
When I switched to spirals, the idea of minimum resources migrated there as well.
I actually tried to make the number of resources 0 across all Articles, but I still had to add wood and ore to fit everything into one month, rather than constantly running to the market to exchange resources. That takes too long.
2. The map is not intended for a "speed-run". If you run out of moves, wait for the next day. I generally play with only one hero; all others are needed exclusively for delivering troops, not for war. That is my strategy.
3. Previously, I made maps with passage widths greater than 1 cell: 2, 3, 4... The game became much more dynamic. Now, that's not my goal.
When drawing spirals, you have to calculate not only the outer side but also the inner one. This increases the time needed to build maps. I don't need that kind of hassle. Whether the computer lags with a passage width of 1 cell doesn't bother me one bit.
4. Thanks for the review, I'll check it out sometime.
5. There are such "water" maps where drawing wall obstacles in the usual way leads to a crash of the map editor. In those cases, yes, you really have to add obstacles manually. This makes drawing much more difficult! These glitches only hinder map building. But there's no other way.
This happens on maps larger than size S. Although not all of them. For example, on the "Pirates" map, which I sometimes use as a basis.
6. There are many cities only because the distance between cities is small. You mean maps where the distance is 30 or 40 units. But in my arsenal, I have distances of 120 units, and previously I also made them 90 and 180.
7. I don't use the Grail. And it's not needed on such small and simple maps. If it appears, it's only because it was on the original map, and I simply don't throw away obelisks, using them as elements (decorations or objects).
8. In principle, nothing stops you from making changes to the project by adding your favorite elements. Add them and play. I like how I do it. There are an infinite number of options—you have to choose some limitations for yourself.
Added after 1 hour 50 minutes
15:29 - As for persistence, I'm simply testing my idea. Or rather, ideas arise constantly; I generate them. And then I test in practice how it will be. This is called research.
It gives the brain a workout. Is it interesting to research? Yes, it is. It's interesting what will happen next—on larger maps, if I ever get around to them and actually draw them.
And plus the aesthetic pleasure from the map, naturally.
16:27 - Previously, definitely Windows 95. Now Windows 2000. This is a bit more convenient, but not essential.
I used Turbo C to calculate the boundaries of 1/8 of a circle. They are needed to draw part of the spiral in a "round" shape, rather than just any random one.
As a reward, you can consider not only the map but also its image. It's like art for oneself. It's also pleasant to see the fruits of one's labor.
22:00 - that is not my description! This is the description of the original map from which I made my own. I simply didn't change it or remove it.
The technology is this: a map from "Heroes III" is taken, and all boundaries are erased. Then they are redrawn in the form of a spiral to walk along.
That is, the original map is not mine, the description is not mine. I only change what I need.
I always play as Red. I've simply never tried any others, although I always add that possibility. In case someone wants to try!
23:00 - "Tax" is a kind of joke. The first tax is taken from the player themselves. A hint at modern Russia, where a person is stripped bare.
The second tax is collected by the hero himself from his subjects so that there are resources for development.
25:30 - This tax was in the original map. I didn't remove it. On the contrary, I made it available to all players on the map.
On other maps, there is no such "bonus". There you play without resources—only what you earned yourself.
30:42 - I generally enter the first battle only after 2 months, once I've accumulated enough troops for an attack.
34:40 - The opponent develops at the same speed as you. And even faster! Therefore, they always have more troops. And they must be defeated. That's the trick of spiral maps. Although for gamers, there is nothing surprising about this.
35:13 - play "from defense", stay in the city and defend. You have dwarves. Shooters always beat them; it's obvious.
Added after 2 hours 41 minutes
41:54 - And there's no reason to push forward when you have no troops.
1:04:04 - That's how I also get confused in the dark when the enemy casts "fog of war".
1:21:16 - Variety can be added. For example, instead of playing as one, enable teams in the map options and play with an ally. I can arrange that.
Or play not only as Red but also as the ally—two races at once.
You can play starting simultaneously from two ends of the map with one team.
1:22:17 - I didn't place a final boss. He appeared for you by chance. And I didn't set "fog of war" either. It also appears randomly, so all map options change every time, and each player gets their own map.
I placed portals exclusively to slightly "smooth out" the edges of the map and to make the "spiral" a bit more even and round. Otherwise, the shape of the map turns out messy.
1:25:55 - It is possible to lose. If you stay in the Castle for 2 months while the opponent levels up somewhere on the distant approaches while you accumulate troops in your castle. And when he arrives, he has many times more troops; a fatal finale is inevitable. On certain types of maps, winning is simply impossible—if you hoard troops instead of moving forward as the opponent does.
Algorithm is a strong word. There are many nuances that need to be worked through, and it's done manually. Essentially, the entire process of building such maps is a mental strain, and that brings pleasure.
Take, for example, the ogre dwelling. And further up the branch—the orc dwelling. An algorithm won't do that. It must be done manually.
I tried both square and triangular ones. But if you need to CALCULATE, only round ones are needed.
And all this requires a lot of time. I alone am not enough for such things; I have other original ideas.
A map of this kind (and size S) is made in one day. Sometimes two. But then it needs finishing touches. And testing, although testing takes slightly less time than the drawing itself.
1:34:44 - very many cities. On a linear map, it probably wouldn't work.
It would work if you gave resources at the start, gave spells like "Fly" or "Teleport", but for me, those are unnecessary perversions of that same spiral.
1:41:54 - this was not intended. You sold resources that I assumed would be spent on building the city in the first month. You can't leave the player with absolutely zero resources, right? Otherwise, a city cannot be built without wood and stone. And money for construction accumulates on its own.
1:42:43 - the relic artifact remained from the original map. I simply placed a guardian monster so that the computer couldn't take it too early (and defeat the player immediately).
That wasn't me. I drew the map for the original "The Restoration of Erathia". The fact that you got this in an advanced version is not my fault. I've never seen that happen.
1:44:22 - probably, it was a glitch of the game itself. It glitches sometimes. But every version has its own glitches, so I can't say anything here.
You downloaded the original "The Restoration of Erathia" map, which I later edited in "The Shadow of Death" editor. But I saved it as "The Restoration of Erathia" map.
Glitches happen there. Because of them, the game crashes, because of them, the editor itself crashes...
1:46:52 - of course not. You launched it in a more advanced version, and the map was generated for your version.
Added after 23 hours 31 minutes
I've figured out what my maps could be called. "Corridor strategy"! After all, there are "corridor shooters", and this is a "corridor strategy".
Previously, I didn't draw spirals at all; I simply divided the original map into squares using wall obstacles. Inside this square, the hero could move around as they pleased until they went beyond its borders and moved to the next square. The idea came from there.
When I switched to spirals, the idea of minimum resources migrated there as well.
I actually tried to make the number of resources 0 across all Articles, but I still had to add wood and ore to fit everything into one month, rather than constantly running to the market to exchange resources. That takes too long.
2. The map is not intended for a "speed-run". If you run out of moves, wait for the next day. I generally play with only one hero; all others are needed exclusively for delivering troops, not for war. That is my strategy.
3. Previously, I made maps with passage widths greater than 1 cell: 2, 3, 4... The game became much more dynamic. Now, that's not my goal.
When drawing spirals, you have to calculate not only the outer side but also the inner one. This increases the time needed to build maps. I don't need that kind of hassle. Whether the computer lags with a passage width of 1 cell doesn't bother me one bit.
4. Thanks for the review, I'll check it out sometime.
5. There are such "water" maps where drawing wall obstacles in the usual way leads to a crash of the map editor. In those cases, yes, you really have to add obstacles manually. This makes drawing much more difficult! These glitches only hinder map building. But there's no other way.
This happens on maps larger than size S. Although not all of them. For example, on the "Pirates" map, which I sometimes use as a basis.
6. There are many cities only because the distance between cities is small. You mean maps where the distance is 30 or 40 units. But in my arsenal, I have distances of 120 units, and previously I also made them 90 and 180.
7. I don't use the Grail. And it's not needed on such small and simple maps. If it appears, it's only because it was on the original map, and I simply don't throw away obelisks, using them as elements (decorations or objects).
8. In principle, nothing stops you from making changes to the project by adding your favorite elements. Add them and play. I like how I do it. There are an infinite number of options—you have to choose some limitations for yourself.
Added after 1 hour 50 minutes
15:29 - As for persistence, I'm simply testing my idea. Or rather, ideas arise constantly; I generate them. And then I test in practice how it will be. This is called research.
It gives the brain a workout. Is it interesting to research? Yes, it is. It's interesting what will happen next—on larger maps, if I ever get around to them and actually draw them.
And plus the aesthetic pleasure from the map, naturally.
16:27 - Previously, definitely Windows 95. Now Windows 2000. This is a bit more convenient, but not essential.
I used Turbo C to calculate the boundaries of 1/8 of a circle. They are needed to draw part of the spiral in a "round" shape, rather than just any random one.
As a reward, you can consider not only the map but also its image. It's like art for oneself. It's also pleasant to see the fruits of one's labor.
22:00 - that is not my description! This is the description of the original map from which I made my own. I simply didn't change it or remove it.
The technology is this: a map from "Heroes III" is taken, and all boundaries are erased. Then they are redrawn in the form of a spiral to walk along.
That is, the original map is not mine, the description is not mine. I only change what I need.
I always play as Red. I've simply never tried any others, although I always add that possibility. In case someone wants to try!
23:00 - "Tax" is a kind of joke. The first tax is taken from the player themselves. A hint at modern Russia, where a person is stripped bare.
The second tax is collected by the hero himself from his subjects so that there are resources for development.
25:30 - This tax was in the original map. I didn't remove it. On the contrary, I made it available to all players on the map.
On other maps, there is no such "bonus". There you play without resources—only what you earned yourself.
30:42 - I generally enter the first battle only after 2 months, once I've accumulated enough troops for an attack.
34:40 - The opponent develops at the same speed as you. And even faster! Therefore, they always have more troops. And they must be defeated. That's the trick of spiral maps. Although for gamers, there is nothing surprising about this.
35:13 - play "from defense", stay in the city and defend. You have dwarves. Shooters always beat them; it's obvious.
Added after 2 hours 41 minutes
41:54 - And there's no reason to push forward when you have no troops.
1:04:04 - That's how I also get confused in the dark when the enemy casts "fog of war".
1:21:16 - Variety can be added. For example, instead of playing as one, enable teams in the map options and play with an ally. I can arrange that.
Or play not only as Red but also as the ally—two races at once.
You can play starting simultaneously from two ends of the map with one team.
1:22:17 - I didn't place a final boss. He appeared for you by chance. And I didn't set "fog of war" either. It also appears randomly, so all map options change every time, and each player gets their own map.
I placed portals exclusively to slightly "smooth out" the edges of the map and to make the "spiral" a bit more even and round. Otherwise, the shape of the map turns out messy.
1:25:55 - It is possible to lose. If you stay in the Castle for 2 months while the opponent levels up somewhere on the distant approaches while you accumulate troops in your castle. And when he arrives, he has many times more troops; a fatal finale is inevitable. On certain types of maps, winning is simply impossible—if you hoard troops instead of moving forward as the opponent does.
Algorithm is a strong word. There are many nuances that need to be worked through, and it's done manually. Essentially, the entire process of building such maps is a mental strain, and that brings pleasure.
Take, for example, the ogre dwelling. And further up the branch—the orc dwelling. An algorithm won't do that. It must be done manually.
I tried both square and triangular ones. But if you need to CALCULATE, only round ones are needed.
And all this requires a lot of time. I alone am not enough for such things; I have other original ideas.
A map of this kind (and size S) is made in one day. Sometimes two. But then it needs finishing touches. And testing, although testing takes slightly less time than the drawing itself.
1:34:44 - very many cities. On a linear map, it probably wouldn't work.
It would work if you gave resources at the start, gave spells like "Fly" or "Teleport", but for me, those are unnecessary perversions of that same spiral.
1:41:54 - this was not intended. You sold resources that I assumed would be spent on building the city in the first month. You can't leave the player with absolutely zero resources, right? Otherwise, a city cannot be built without wood and stone. And money for construction accumulates on its own.
1:42:43 - the relic artifact remained from the original map. I simply placed a guardian monster so that the computer couldn't take it too early (and defeat the player immediately).
That wasn't me. I drew the map for the original "The Restoration of Erathia". The fact that you got this in an advanced version is not my fault. I've never seen that happen.
1:44:22 - probably, it was a glitch of the game itself. It glitches sometimes. But every version has its own glitches, so I can't say anything here.
You downloaded the original "The Restoration of Erathia" map, which I later edited in "The Shadow of Death" editor. But I saved it as "The Restoration of Erathia" map.
Glitches happen there. Because of them, the game crashes, because of them, the editor itself crashes...
1:46:52 - of course not. You launched it in a more advanced version, and the map was generated for your version.
Added after 23 hours 31 minutes
I've figured out what my maps could be called. "Corridor strategy"! After all, there are "corridor shooters", and this is a "corridor strategy".
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Map for 13 towns. Actually, I was aiming for 15, but I missed.
The map has 7 opponents. Actually, I was aiming for 8, but I missed.
It is included in the archive. In addition to the map itself, the archive contains a template from which it was created. You can use your imagination and create your own map with your own parameters.
Also, the archive contains a *.bmp file with an image of the map. You can hang it on your wall.
Regarding playability. The map turned out to be "average" in difficulty. Although it is not without flaws. I managed to win only thanks to the unicorns, whose dwelling is located in the lower part of the map on the outer spiral. I got Krag Hack, and his attack power was able to defeat the enemies.
Download the data and the map:
https://disk.yandex.ru/d/jXSCo9rOTNt8TQ
The map has 7 opponents. Actually, I was aiming for 8, but I missed.
It is included in the archive. In addition to the map itself, the archive contains a template from which it was created. You can use your imagination and create your own map with your own parameters.
Also, the archive contains a *.bmp file with an image of the map. You can hang it on your wall.
Regarding playability. The map turned out to be "average" in difficulty. Although it is not without flaws. I managed to win only thanks to the unicorns, whose dwelling is located in the lower part of the map on the outer spiral. I got Krag Hack, and his attack power was able to defeat the enemies.
Download the data and the map:
https://disk.yandex.ru/d/jXSCo9rOTNt8TQ
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A very, very large map. I will never build such large maps again. Radius 38.
The distance between cities is 120. Without taking acceleration into account, it takes a week to travel such a distance. That's what it's designed for. The obstacle between players is not the guards, but this distance.
There are a total of 14 cities. 7 players.
I tested this map, as I did with all the previous ones. In the end, the enemy learned to fly and attacked my intermediate hero. The task of this intermediate hero was to deliver troops to the main hero. But I managed to defeat the enemy, albeit on the second attempt.
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A map for two players. The distance between cities is 180 cells, which translates to 2 weeks of gameplay.
I've placed this map in the "spiral maps" topic. Although there aren't any spirals here, it's because the initial radius is very small – 1, 2, 3, 4 units. A spiral wouldn't fit. But if it could, it would be here.
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Two new maps.
Technical description.
There is no water. The maps are based on "Always Ready". The distance between cities is 180 cells (or less). The first map has two cities, and the second map has three cities.
The map shape is a double spiral.
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