Posts from Wind of Change

Randomness is the most interesting factor in Heroes 3.

Yes, I've personally never had more fun in any game than in a Heroes 3 XL+U match where my opponent gets full control within the first few rolls (or without any) and I get each spell in the last roll. This argument is complete horseshit; yes, RNG is necessary to keep the game fresh, but being unable to play the game properly and not having any chances of victory since the start of the game due to a shitty guild is anything but fun. The question is not whether changes are necessary, but what changes should be made so that people are happy with the result.

Some changes to mage guild are necessary. The difference coming from rolling for control spells commonly decides the course of the game on more difficult templates.

We are leaning towards the solution implemented in Fresh Mod. Maximum 4 rolls and making it impossible to get control spell without a roll should reduce rng factor.

A question arises about what to do about library in tower, should it be counted as a roll in above logic? If so, the building will become significantly stronger. A suggestion for balancing it out is adding a requirement of mage tower before one can build the library.

If the library does not count as a roll, then building it before rolling for the first time becomes less desirable, but building it after at least one roll still keeps the role of increasing chances for control.

Another thing to consider is magic university in conflux. It is a very strong special building, especially on XL+U, and the cost of buying magic skill in it is not very high. We would suggest increasing the price of the building by 5000 gold and reducing the number of purchases to one per day.

Another issue around control is tier 4 spell shrines, both on mirrors and other templates such shrine with tp gives us a huge advantage over the opponent. We suggest removing an option for getting tp in that object. Getting some other lvl 4 spells can still provide a large advantage, but it will be partially balanced by the other changes.

Thanks for collaborative analysis to: W4rchi, Drakonin, Tyranuxus, Dawidu91, Aproh!


Some changes to mage guild are necessary. The difference in obtaining control spells often determines the course of the game on more difficult templates.

We agree with the solutions proposed in Fresh Mod. A maximum of 4 rolls and making it impossible to obtain control spells without rolls should reduce variance.

A question arises about what to do with the library building in tower: should we count it as a roll? If so, this will significantly increase the value of this building. A suggestion on how to balance the library is that building the mage tower should be a prerequisite for building the library.

If we do not count the library as a roll, then building it before any rolls at all becomes less desirable, but building it after at least one roll still increases the chances of obtaining control spells.

We would also like to draw attention to the magic university in conflux. This is a very strong special building, especially on XL+U, and the cost of buying magic skill is not high enough. We would like to propose increasing the building's cost by 5000 gold and limiting the number of purchases per day.

Another aspect regarding control concerns shrines that allow learning a random level 4 spell: on mirrors and other templates, such shrines with tp give a huge advantage over the opponent. We propose removing the option to obtain tp from this object. Obtaining other level 4 spells can also provide a significant advantage, but this building will at least be partially balanced by the proposed change.

Thanks to the players for collaborative analysis: W4rchi, Drakonin, Tyranuxus, Dawidu91, Aproh!

Another thing to consider is magic university in conflux. It is a very strong special building, especially on XL+U, and the cost of buying magic skill in it is not very high. We would suggest increasing the price of the building by 5000 gold and reducing the number of purchases to one per day.

I agree with everything that has been said except for this part. I am for adding a limit for the number of available daily purchases (maybe two instead of one, up to debate), but i am strongly against increasing the price by 5000. While it might not be a bad idea on XL+U, it would be terrible for h3dm and possibly some other templates - even with the current price it's sometimes hard to collect enough money for an university and making it more expensive would cripple both conflux gameplay and cases where a player is unlucky with magic and has to rely on a flux side town.

Also, I would like to draw attention to the University of Magic in Conflux. This is a very powerful specific building, especially on XL+U, and the cost of purchasing an element is not high enough. We would like to propose increasing the building cost by 5000 gold and limiting the number of purchases per player per day.

It seems to me that this university should offer random skills (possibly only magical ones: 4 elements, wisdom, sorcery, intelligence, mysticism, literacy, learning, eagle eye)

I think that in this university, random skills should be offered (perhaps only magic ones: 4 elements, wisdom, sorcery, intelligence, mysticism, literacy, learning, eagle eye)

With the possibility of rebuilding the university? :smile54:

I think, as always, we just need to set the price/value closer to the real value. For example, the purchase price of land/air could be 10,000. Fire can remain at 2,000. Water can be free. Just estimate it. We need to think about it.

All these winds of change are, frankly speaking, just crying wolf in favor of the poor.

Because the layout will never be balanced.

Some will have a guaranteed Dragon Utopia on the 2nd week and a cap nearby on the ground,
while others won't even have the resources for rebuilding until the 3rd week

I agree with everything that has been said except for this part. I am for adding a limit for the number of available daily purchases (maybe two instead of one, up to debate), but i am strongly against increasing the price by 5000. While it might not be a bad idea on XL+U, it would be terrible for h3dm and possibly some other templates - even with the current price it's sometimes hard to collect enough money for an university and making it more expensive would cripple both conflux gameplay and cases where a player is unlucky with magic and has to rely on a flux side town.

Two magic per day won't be nerf at all, only in later stages of the game we need more than that, early it's very rare to buy more than one per day.
I'm not sure if increasing university cost is so terrible, if earth magic (in h3dm air or other aren't even necessary) is so strong and usefull you have to pay for that. I understand problem if one player getting free earth and second needs to buy that, it's hard to find good solution for every template. Increasing cost by 5 resources for building and +1/2 all for magic isn't bad idea aswell.

Added after 5 minutes

I think that this university should offer random skills (perhaps only magical ones: 4 elements, wisdom, sorcery, intellect, mysticism, literacy, learning, eagle eye)

We need to find new name for this building, won't be magic university anymore. I'm not sure about this solution, if it's not 4 same skills always we'r increasing element of rng which isn't our point

I agree with Marek; random secondary skills will probably create more imbalance. And the point of building them becomes irrelevant. When playing with a Fortress, there's a very powerful boost in the form of leveling up support units, and also the ability to "correct" a promising main unit if it's not leveling up as intended when it was chosen. But the cost should be justified because 5000 for the building + 2000 for choosing the element is still quite cheap, especially for the mid-game and later, where utopias appear and trade artifacts become available at the merchant. Perhaps this is the most "non-barbarian" change, in my opinion.

I thought about it and ultimately changed my mind. Dave was right; the problem isn't so much with the game master as it is with these spells that need to be fixed. Fixing the game master will lead to a very monotonous and boring game. We need fixes like diplomacy, which may be needed in some cases. Also, skills, hero selection, and building should differ depending on the draft, ideally. Therefore, we need to fix these spells, not make them easier to obtain. Regarding the university, I don't even know. On the one hand, Dirty's idea is interesting, but it will add randomness, which could be quite critical. For example, players are playing a mirror match, the map is suitable for oil, one player gets earth, and the other builds a university hoping for earth, but it's not there, and as a result, they fall far behind. The idea of different spell costs seems more interesting; ideally, we should collect statistics on the purchase of elements at the beginning and use the statistics to create interesting diversity.

Increasing the cost of universities and magic purchases is not the solution. Globally, it won't change anything, it will only increase the importance of gold and slow down the pace of the game. But often, situations will arise where someone has taken a Naga Bank or a Utopia and stocked up, while someone else can't because they don't have enough money-generating structures. A more global change is needed here.

Increasing the cost of universities and magic purchases is a solution.
Globally, this will change the game by reducing the weight of one obvious problem. Ideally, the problem will disappear altogether, but let's be realistic – the game is complex, and there's no guarantee that everything can be resolved in one iteration.
Yes, the situation will change somewhat, and other, currently smaller (attention! the key word is smaller) problems may become noticeable, but the problem that is currently acute will recede.

We need to gradually smooth out the sharp edges, the ones that are currently most obvious.
Changing the in-game value of an object to be closer to its real value is not always the ideal solution; there are other methods of balancing – for example, Quentin in the fresh-mode in SoD is already showing how this can be done in other ways.
But such a change in price/value is still always the closest step that can be taken in the right direction, if nothing better comes to mind. To say that this is not a solution is a mistake.

Therefore, these issues need to be fixed, not made easier to obtain.

I would like to hear your ideas for fixes, if possible. Because, in my opinion, there aren't many ways to do it: 1. Limit the number of uses per day; 2. Increase the required amount of mana for use. In the first case, some spells may become useless. For example, Dimension Door once a day for XL+U is not such a huge advantage that the entire game should be built around obtaining this spell. Again, the value of logistics, stables, etc., will increase, because the goals of Dimension Door are simple: saving mana and reaching areas inaccessible on foot. The same Teleport with two or three uses a day only makes it necessary to increase the number of support units (although, for one use a day, the spell is practically useless; you will even have to split up heroes after obtaining it, and for two or three uses, nothing will change much, because approximately that many times Teleport is used during the day). Increasing the required amount of mana does not seem like a serious fix, as it again only increases the value of skills such as intelligence, for example, and also hats. And in the game, it will be standard: one player will find all this useful, and another will not. In this context, balancing the schools of magic looks promising (maybe we will see Dimension Door in water someday? :o)

Increasing the price of the University and buying magic is not the solution. Globally, it won't change anything, it will only increase the importance of gold and slow down the pace. But often there will be situations where someone has taken a Naga Bank or a Utopia and stocked up, while someone else can't because they didn't get enough money-generating structures. Something needs to change fundamentally.

I think it's going to change a lot. Instead of buying an Art Merchant to get more resources, you have to spend more money on the University. Usually, Conflux doesn't need to build any army in town. What is your solution? Making the University a more random building could be detrimental to the Conflux's value.

I would like to hear your ideas for fixes, if possible.

Limit the jump range, but also reduce the jump cost, for balance between mages and warriors. For example, without air magic, a jump of 6 cells, with advanced air magic, 9 cells, and with expert air magic, 12 cells.

For Teleport: 2 teleports with advanced earth magic, 3 teleports with expert earth magic per day.

For starters. What Dave suggested was also interesting.