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In reply to kamukag3e
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6 years ago
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kamukag3e
Personally, I don't see any rules in Heroes that say you can't redo your turn if the opponent loads an autosave. It only mentions redoing a turn during a battle in case of a disconnection (game crash).
Do you always redo your turn differently in case of a disconnection, even if you didn't like the turn for some reason?
In reply to kamukag3e
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6 years ago
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kamukag3e
Personally, I didn't find any rules in the HotA guidelines that prohibit replaying your turn after the opponent loads an autosave. The rules only mention replaying a turn during a battle in case of a disconnection (game crash).
Not quite. In this specific case, the player's (Gomunculus) turn was fully completed. And the forced loading of the previous autosave in this case is essentially the same as a crash/disconnection during an Online Hotseat:
"In any case, when loading a save, players should try to repeat their moves as accurately as possible up to the point of disconnection."
In reply to kamukag3e
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6 years ago
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kamukag3e

As for skipping a turn, everything was done under the control of Yar (the organizer), since he didn't stop the game or force Goma to replay the turn differently, it means it was done correctly.

No, it all happened very quickly, and I didn't immediately understand what had happened, around the 14th hour of the broadcast)

Added 1 minute ago
MerlinTheMagician

"loading a battle save doesn't fix the crash at the end of the turn."

It might fix it, usually that's how it's done, but on THAT day, it didn't help.)
In reply to Dirty_Player
6 years ago
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Dirty_Player
Do you always redo your turn differently in case of a disconnect, if you didn't like the turn for some reason?
Instead of clarifying the rules, are you trying to take it out on the players?
I wrote this in a completely different context; people who write about the rules of fair play didn't even bother to read what fair play means. And the organizers should sometimes monitor the rules and periodically update them to reflect current realities; they even changed the constitution:smile07:
And about "not liking it," it's better to ask Zhopa, when his game crashed on the CIS server at turn 111 after the end of the blue player's turn, and he found Alamar after loading the red player's battle save. Even the great Zhopa couldn't repeat all the moves exactly as he did the first time (and I'm not talking about Alamar here), although the commentators noted this.
Everyone strives to play fairly, as they understand it; no one cheats on purpose, especially when the game is being streamed and an organizer is watching. And to say that someone deliberately crashed the game when they didn't like the turn is complete nonsense.

Added 5 minutes ago
ЯR
no, it all happened very quickly, I didn't immediately understand what happened, at the 14th hour of the stream)
Well, judging by the fact that you still reacted and replayed the turn with one hit, everything was done correctly. What Tvarina suggested on the stream, to delete the army, is also an option, but that solution didn't immediately occur to anyone.

Added 5 minutes ago
MerlinTheMagician
repeat your moves as accurately as possible
ЯR
at the 14th hour of the stream)
kamukag3e
the game crashed at 111 after the end of the turn .... could not repeat all the moves
Everything is relative - something like that....
In reply to kamukag3e
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6 years ago
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kamukag3e
Instead of clarifying the rules, are you trying to take it out on the players?
I wrote this in a completely different context. People who write about the rules of fair play didn't even bother to read what fair play means. And the organizers should sometimes monitor the rules and periodically update them to reflect current realities; even the constitution has been changed :smile07:
And regarding "didn't like it," it's better to ask Zhopa. He had a game crash on СНГ at turn 111 after the blue player's turn ended, and he found Alamar after loading the red player's battle save. Even the great Zhopa couldn't repeat all the moves exactly as he did the first time (and I'm not talking about Alamar here), although the commentators noted this.
Everyone strives to play fairly, as they understand it; no one cheats on purpose, especially when the game is being streamed and an organizer is watching. And saying that someone deliberately crashed the game because they didn't like the move is complete nonsense.
If you call a respected player "Zhopa," how can I call you? Just thinking out loud... For now, it's a warning; I'll start punishing for this in the future, no offense.

You can't write everything in the rules. If a controversial situation arises in the game that is not documented in the rules, the players must turn to the judge, and the judge will make a decision.

Regarding Shopa. As a normal player, he immediately wrote in the chat that Alamar appeared to him. The opponent had no objections. So everything is okay.
In the tournament on MT_Jeb, a situation arose that was the opposite, and at turn 111, he got good heroes, but he had to replay due to a crash. The players turned to me, and I said that they should play as is.
There's no need to brag about how "it didn't work out" when replaying a turn; the heroes play a very important role. Obviously, when replaying turn 111, it is highly unlikely to buy all the same heroes as in the previous attempt. Just like in the late game, when a player digs up a strong hero, the presence of that hero can have an even greater impact on the game (as was the case in FFA). The judge assesses the degree of influence on the process. And his decision will be decisive. In some cases, you can replay a turn; in some cases, you can load a single save and dig up a hero "on demand," as I suggested in the case of very critical situations; in some cases, you can simply dismiss the necessary number of units and continue. You can't write in the rules exactly what to do in each case (for example, if there was an attack by a strong hero from the tavern, it would be silly to demand that the attack be repeated with any other hero) - the judge decides.

Regarding the game situation that occurred in the game, when Gomunguls attacked with Kasmetra instead of Luna, a dispute arose. This is a situation that could harm both players, so it's up to the judge. The video shows that Gomunguls wrote that "Yar allowed me to play differently." This implies three options:
1. This is true, so there can be no complaints.
2. This is not true, and Gomunguls is lying.
3. Yar said this for a different situation, and Gomunguls took it to mean that it can be done always.

In fact, Gomunguls replayed the turn completely differently, gaining a decisive advantage compared to the turn that was in the previous attempt. Yar, however, made the right decision that the turn should be replayed and completed as it was before. Gomunguls agreed with the decision without arguing. Savitar was not satisfied with the judge's decision.
I believe that if you sign up for someone's tournament, you should abide by the judge's decision or try to persuade him. To take a stand and say that you will not play is the last thing to do.

Disqualifying Gomunguls for a violation, as Savitar demanded, was not correct in this situation, because this violation in a controversial situation was immediately fixed.

Regarding mutual disrespect, everyone was good in their own way, each participant was wrong in his own way, and many unnecessary words were said and written. I think the players already understand everything and will sort it out among themselves. Only the viewers are still burning...
In reply to Dirty_Player
6 years ago
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Dirty_Player
For some reason, the viewers are still upset about it...
But everything seemed to have calmed down by the next day.
It's strange that you're discussing complaints against players in the tribunal without the participation of the players themselves. None of the parties involved has responded. It's just a lot of empty talk. I'm surprised you didn't go after Lera; she took first place using such dishonest methods!111 :smile14:
The FFA match was great and followed all traditions. Hopefully, no one will be banned because of it, and there won't be any chair throwing at offline events).

It's a pity that hardworking YaR didn't think to ask someone from the community to tweak the template and add lights for the Tower. Maybe Hell would have played differently.

And here is my wish from this thread dated 2016:
iDeaTh

Wishes for individual streamers:
...
- Twaryna - slightly adjust the templating system in favor of Alexander so that he doesn't get too absorbed in the cards Kappa
...

But you guys are getting spoiled with your wishes:)
Water-water-water (c) :(

(c) Another random viewer.
In reply to iDeaTh
6 years ago
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In Heroes 3, FFA games are quite rare, and people haven't quite gotten used to them yet.

FFA games are inherently unfair because they immediately violate the main principle of fair play:
"Play One-on-One." (without the help of partners, cheats, third-party programs, etc.)

As soon as 2 or 3 players form an alliance against one player, it's no longer a fair game.

Therefore, it's difficult to apply "generally accepted rules" to FFA games if they are already inherently unfair.

For example, in Civilization 5 and 6, all games are FFA, and here's a typical situation in Civ 5: a player writes to his neighbor, "I'm being attacked, lend me some money, I'll pay it back right away" (even though no one is attacking). The neighbor lends him money. The player upgrades his troops and attacks that neighbor who gave him the money and defeats him. Profit – he defeated the neighbor and no one is left to return the debt to. And after that, a fight begins.

This is a real, common example from Civ 5 to illustrate what an FFA game is like.

Therefore, Dirty is right in the first point:
1. Every FFA = A Fight
In reply to Sinot
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6 years ago
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Sinot
For example, in Civilization 5 and 6, all games are free-for-all, and here's a typical situation in Civ 5: a player writes to a neighbor, "I'm being attacked, lend me some money, I'll pay it back right away" (even though no one is attacking). The neighbor gives him money. The player upgrades his troops and attacks that neighbor who gave him the money and defeats him. Profit – he defeated the neighbor and now no one needs to be paid back. And after that, the arguing begins.
I already want to see something like that in Heroes :D
In reply to Dirty_Player
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6 years ago
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Dirty_Player
I already want to see something like this in Heroes :D
Well, you've already seen it... Give me three thousand!
In reply to MerlinTheMagician
6 years ago
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Dirty_Player
If you call a respected player an "asshole," then how should I call you? Just thinking out loud... For now, it's just a warning; I'll start punishing such behavior in the future, no offense.
Regarding the spelling of the nickname, Shopa didn't know the correct spelling in Russian, sorry if I offended anyone.
Dirty_Player
Regarding Shopa. As a normal player, he immediately wrote in the chat that Alamar had arrived for him.
Well, he didn't write immediately, but after he finished his turn, which doesn't matter because I didn't pay attention to that – the arrival of another hero in the tavern is hardly comparable to replaying a turn. I was talking about the fact that Shopa managed to move his heroes a little differently on turn 111, which was noted by the commentators during his turn. And I emphasized that someone great can do this, and the judges don't interfere, but someone else gets asked if they "always repeat their turns in case of a disconnect." I repeat that everything is relative, including the concepts of "as accurately as possible" and "as closely as possible" – it is precisely these that need to be tried to be specified in the rules and not only when a turn is interrupted during a battle or an Overlord's Hut encounter. An example of a question for which I could not find a definitive answer in the fair play rules: "If, when replaying a turn 'as accurately as possible,' a hero with more movement points arrives, is it permissible to move 1-2 squares further for scouting or any other purpose?"

Added 9 minutes later
Or what to do in the opposite situation, if a hero with fewer movement points arrives, and it is not possible to bring the army to the main hero, so the main hero takes a step back and cannot be in the same position as before the disconnect? This could lead to the inability to position oneself for an attack by the opponent. Is this considered an accurate replay of the turn?
In reply to kamukag3e
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6 years ago
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kamukag3e
Example of a question for which I have not found a definitive answer in the fair play rules: "Is it allowed, while repeating a move 'as accurately as possible', to move 1-2 tiles further if a hero with more movement points arrives, for the purpose of scouting or any other purpose?"
And the definitive answer is what experienced judges should provide, who are capable of assessing the degree of influence a given maneuver has on the game's outcome in each specific game situation. Because there is not and will not be such a thing in the rules, since it is simply not realistic to stipulate everything in existence.
But you can occupy yourself in your spare time - create a Talmud, stipulate everything you deem necessary, and submit it to the community for review. The official HotA rules have long needed tidying up (look, for example, at the trade rules - I have never seen anyone conduct trading according to those rules).
And the rules on HeroesWorld, it seems, have not been properly updated for a long time either - there is no one to do it.
Go for it; if it's constructive, it will be better for everyone.

Added 5 minutes later
kamukag3e
Or what to do in the opposite situation, if a hero with fewer movement points arrives and it is not possible to bring the army in the chain to the main hero, causing the main hero to step back and be unable to remain in the same position as before the disconnect? This could make it impossible to position for the opponent's attack. Is this considered an accurate repetition of the move?
If it concerns deciding the fate of the match, then reload as many times as needed, and repeat the move as many times as needed, until a situation acceptable from the judges' perspective is achieved.
6 years ago
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That’s why I provided specific examples to understand how important this is and whether it’s permissible to play this way. Judging by the fact that Shopa did it this way and the judges didn’t stop the game at move 111, it seems that this is acceptable and considered a “near-perfect repetition of the move.” Or is this simply an oversight by the judges, and it shouldn’t be done? My suggestion is to add a description to the rules about players’ actions in case of disconnection without an Overlord, and nothing more. I won’t even mention the rule about repeating moves in case of disconnection during a battle because it’s impossible to implement this rule in practice due to the non-repetition of morale, unless the battle was interrupted in the early moves.
In reply to kamukag3e
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6 years ago
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kamukag3e
Or what to do in the opposite situation, if a hero with fewer movement points arrives and it is not possible to bring the army in formation to the main hero, so the main hero moves back and cannot be in the same position as before the disconnection? This can lead to the inability to position oneself for an attack by the opponent. Is this considered the most accurate repetition of the turn?
The point is that you can come up with a great many different situations. Sometimes it matters, sometimes it doesn't.

The fact that the rules regarding disconnections were last edited in 2014 speaks volumes. Of course, the rules need to be constantly refined, and the precedents that arise are precisely the reason to refine them.

Added 4 minutes later
MerlinTheMagician
If it comes to deciding the fate of the game, then load as many times as necessary and repeat the turn as many times as necessary until a situation acceptable from the judges' point of view is achieved.
If it comes to buying heroes, then at a certain point, you can load a single-player game, under the supervision of a judge, and buy the desired hero with one click on demand. This is possible in HotA and SoD.
kamukag3e
I wrote specific examples precisely for the sake of discussion, to understand how important this is and whether it is possible to play this way. Judging by the fact that Shopa did it this way and the judges did not stop the game at turn 111, it means that this is permissible and is considered an "approximate repetition of the turn." Or is this still an oversight by the judges, and it is not allowed? My suggestion is to add to the rules a description of the actions of players in the event of a disconnection without an observer.
In general, if you think about it, it is very difficult to repeat turn 111 exactly from memory. I, for example, cannot immediately remember the exact sequence in which the heroes scattered from the castle. And is it really critical for turn 111 to have an extra step or an extra resource, to the point of replaying the entire turn and spending a lot of time repeating it? This is something the judge should decide.
In reply to Dirty_Player
6 years ago
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Dirty_Player
Do you always redo your turn in case of a disconnect, if you didn't like the turn for some reason?
Dirty_Player
For example, I can't immediately recall the exact sequence in which the heroes left the castle.
Well, here's an approximate answer to your question, something like that...
In reply to kamukag3e
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6 years ago
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kamukag3e
Well, here's a rough answer to your question, something like that...
My question was a bit different. It's about intentionally redoing a turn for your own benefit.

For example, you see a Griffin Conservatory 2-4 and send a weakling there. The Conservatory turns out to be 2, which is easily taken. A disconnect happens. Will you send the weakling again?

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