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IhromantIt's a shame they are following the HotA path (eat what you're given)Does anyone still think that the option — "Guys, let's all gather together and figure out how to organize SoD" — is realistic? Look at what it turns into in the HotA threads. I suggest discussing things that can actually be felt, touched, and tested. And then make adjustments based on the results if necessary. I am completely open to hearing new ideas. It's just that regarding the main pain point of SoD — the generator — everything is clear, but there's nothing that can be done about it yet; the only thing I "managed" was generating maps entirely without roads.
Accordingly, we can discuss: 1. What is wrong with having non-imbalanced diplomacy in the game? 2. What is wrong with the fact that, essentially, the original Eagle Eye idea will sometimes allow comebacks in the finale? 3. What is wrong with strengthening demonology through first aid?
Added after 10 minutes @Ben80 I suggest starting a separate thread about AI in Heroes or continuing in the beginners' thread. Fresh mod is not related to this at all.
The core joins involve monsters up to 25,000, and this change hardly affects diplomacy at all.
I remember games on anarchy – I see 20 gold, 100 pits, 150 fire elementals, 70 gorgons – aren't these the main joins that are now basically impossible in Fresh Mod 3.0?
In your opinion, if the diplomacy limit is reduced to 10,000 (7 ducks), will diplomacy still be overpowered?
Added after 1 hour 16 minutes There may have been a misunderstanding due to the wording of the diplomacy condition. It refers to the total AI value of the joined stack. That is, 25,000 is, for example, 18 ducks = 25,000/1350. This is the maximum stack of ducks that can be joined in a game with Fresh Mod 3.0.
More examples of maximum joinable stacks:
4 angels = 25,000/5019
8 royal nagas = 25,000/2840
12 cavalry = 25,000/1946
16 manticores = 25,000/1547
20 pitlords = 25,000/1224
and so on. If the stack is even one unit larger, it will either fight or flee, depending on the strength of your army.
Can you state the reason why non-overpowered diplomacy shouldn't be in a regular online game?
I can. Out of all secondary skills, only two allow you to obtain troops from nowhere – Necromancy and Diplomacy. Diplomacy has the maximum impact on the game. One good join turns the game upside down. This is precisely why it is almost impossible to make diplomacy an average playable skill. Diplomacy will either be overpowered or useless. All value restrictions are just half measures; it is almost impossible to find a balance in this case. There were two examples of how to bring diplomacy back into the game. 1. Tournaments where Kirr and Ryland competed, with a limit on diplomacy for creatures 1-5. Here, you can assess the effect based on real games. 2. A more strict example from a balancing guru. And another one! Kventin
I remember playing anarchy games - I see 20 gold, 100 pits, 150 fire elementals, 70 gorgons - isn't this what the main joins used to be, which now aren't really possible?
Some people play without rules specifically for that :rolleyes: Kventin
Accordingly, we can discuss: 1. What is bad about having non-overpowered diplomacy in the game? 2. What is bad about the fact that, essentially, Eagle Eye's native idea will sometimes allow comebacks in the final stage? 3. What is bad about strengthening demonology through First Aid?
1. Nothing 2. Nothing 3. Nothing The issue here is not that; it’s about trying to add something unnecessary. I repeat, I can come up with ways to strengthen Navigation, Scouting, Tactics, Earth Magic, and even Wisdom. BUT it's not needed! It's like giving new properties to units. What's wrong with air elementals being able to fly? Seemingly nothing, but why? :confused:
P.S.: Regarding AI, I don't even want to answer because I don't see any point in arguing; much has already been said in various topics in the relevant sections.
I read it, maybe I wasn't paying close enough attention, but why are the developers focusing so much on developing skills that are rarely used? Kostya clearly stated that the main problem with SoD is the generator, not the averaging of unnecessary skills like Eagle Eye and Mysticism. I didn't like HotA at first, but after playing more, I realized that it's the generator that attracts attention, and also the 3 starting stacks, which is much more useful in terms of balance than the randomness of the 2nd and 3rd stacks, because, in my opinion, playing as, say, Inferno against a Rampart with 3 stacks is better than playing the same Inferno with one stack against 3 stacks of the opponent, and that's why it's worth taking an extra restart, despite a good starting hand.
Yes, Derty, if we're talking about fan tournaments, then of course the level there is weak; the goal is to attract inexperienced players. But if we're talking about tournaments like 9 Kingdoms, the World Team Championship, or Gladiator, then there were plenty of experienced players there. I usually experiment with formats and plugins in tournaments that aren't aimed at experienced players.
Regarding the plugin that starts with 3 stacks and always has a level 2 creature built – such a plugin has existed for a long time. It's not very interesting for HotA, but it's used outside of HotA. As I understand it, HotA is moving towards reducing controversial game mechanics. As a result, we get "Under-Heroes" compared to the original, but the main thing is that this satisfies the players and allows them to participate in tournaments. Any change in the game leads to a deviation from the original. There will still be no perfect balance – for that, you would have to equalize absolutely everything (which would be a completely different game). And it's also unrealistic to anticipate all game formats, all templates, rules, etc. Therefore, if a balance is achieved, it will be for specific game formats, and other formats may suffer as a result. For example, in HotA, there are rules that are constantly changing (corrections are made to them), and you need to adapt to them – this is also an indication that even experienced players cannot anticipate everything; a good understanding of the mechanics does not provide a perfect understanding of all processes and connections at the program level and in the game, and what one change will lead to. Everything is tested and developed gradually.
As for the map generator, it's not that simple. But precisely because plugin developers are gaining experience, there have already been improvements. For example, reducing the number of impassable tiles on the map, correcting shifted guards (not yet perfect, but in most cases), checking the map before the start for eaten zones, missing passages, etc., and if the map was generated incorrectly, it is regenerated. Work has also been done on water templates. Not everything at once, guys.
Let people do what they want – this gives them the motivation to learn about the game. And over time, you will get what you need. They are open to communication and also want to do something useful. Don't forget that plugins are optional and can be enabled or disabled as desired.
Suggest something to the developers, and they will decide whether they can do it or not. If not, then it's something for the future. And you can focus on something else. In the future, you can create something specifically needed from all these mods and plugins.
If a plugin is not needed by one person, it doesn't mean that it's not needed by another. For example, someone might want to create a non-standard tournament or show match for viewers, and they can do this by connecting certain plugins.
In general, here are some suggestions. If it's currently difficult to adjust the random generator (and yes, I understand why), then we could fix the Necropolis, but not by nerfing it as drastically as in HotA, but by nerfing the Necropolis castle itself. Specifically:
1. Make Tanta work like Alamar and Jeddite – allow her to permanently resurrect skeletons, but only with the Advanced Earth skill. I don't think this would be too difficult.
2. Fix the Converter spell. Make it convert low-level units proportionally to their health, rather than 1-to-1 as it currently does. For example, 6 peasants would convert into 1 skeleton. But, as before, 1 Kent would still convert into 1 skeleton.
With this, we could increase the number of Goblins and Imps at the start for the Barbarians and Inferno factions. This would strengthen them, while the conversion rate would remain roughly the same as before.
And secondly, there's a mechanic in Heroes games where, due to the law of large numbers, large stacks are very likely to deal damage close to their average damage value. For example, a powerful hero like Claudius enters a battle with a stack of skeletons that deal 125-375 damage. Instead of thinking strategically, he realizes that, on average, they will deal 250 damage and starts rushing the skeletons to quickly eliminate enemy stacks. Who abuses this the most? The strongest factions – Necropolis, Dungeon, and Conflux (with a 2-8 damage range for air units). By making the damage distribution more uniform, we can subtly weaken them without significantly changing the game's mechanics (and without ruining "what the veterans already know, but shouldn't be abusing").
In general, here are some ideas.
Мой любимьій размер - тройка. Будь то конса, утопа или сиськи ICQ:5676388
Ihromant, I don't want to disappoint you, but it rarely happens that someone comes up with a brilliant idea, and another person starts implementing it. In modding, people mainly implement their own ideas. And ordinary human relationships also play a role here. That's why I wrote a couple of modules for Arcomage – simply because we had an interesting conversation on VK. And here, it's like in Heroes – people write to them, write, and they hardly read anything anymore. That is, what you wrote, they will definitely read, but, in general, you understand.
Ihromant, I don't want to disappoint you, but it rarely happens that someone comes up with a brilliant idea, and another person starts implementing it. In modding, people mainly implement their own desires. And ordinary human relationships also play a role here. That's why I wrote a couple of modules for Arcomage – simply because we had an interesting conversation on VK. And here, it's like in Heroes – people write and write to them, but they hardly read anything anymore. That is, what you wrote, they will definitely read, but, in general, you understand.
I know. I just posted it knowing that it would be unrealistic. I have a friend who knows C, and I wanted to offer him to create a plugin for me for money, but he first agreed and then backed out. So I know that no one will implement my ideas for free, and even for money, they might not want to. That's just how it is.
Мой любимьій размер - тройка. Будь то конса, утопа или сиськи ICQ:5676388
I think, first of all, we should thank Kventin and other modders for their work. But, unfortunately, the effect of such plugins will tend towards zero as long as SOD retains its morally outdated and buggy generator. Without reworking the SOD generator, it is doomed for online play. In a year or two, only a dozen or so hardcore players will be playing it, plus a couple of tournaments a year for nostalgia's sake. All these improvements to the eagle eye and first aid skills will be worthless as long as, in 30% of 6LM generations, blue will be forced to give way on a one-way road. If you care so much about SOD, only reworking the generator can give it a new life.
I can. Of all the secondary skills, only two allow you to obtain troops from the air: Necromancy and Diplomacy. Diplomacy has the greatest impact on the game. One good join can turn the game upside down. This is precisely why it is almost impossible to make Diplomacy a moderately viable skill. Diplomacy will either be overpowered or useless. All the restrictions on its value are just half-measures; it is almost impossible to find a balance in this case.
So, the question is only about balance – that's reasonable. Okay, explain to me how it can be overpowered on XL, with a limit of 10,000, equivalent to 7 ducks, what army can you assemble, even with control, with such small stacks? In my opinion, it is obvious that it will not be overpowered. Therefore, if the current limit of 25,000 turns out to be overpowered, then you can simply change the limit to 16,000, and with a high degree of probability, we will be close to the local optimum, since a step of 3,000 is not particularly significant. Dirty_Player
The issue here is not that, but the attempt to add something unnecessary. I repeat, I can come up with ways to enhance Navigation, Scouting, Tactics, Earth Magic, and even Wisdom. BUT it's not needed! It's like giving new properties to units. What's wrong with air elementals being able to fly? Seemingly nothing, but why?:confused:
I agree; there is no point in changing anything without a clear improvement in the game's variability. Such changes can be called "fantasy" or, in our Orthodox way, "whimsy."
Let's look at the changes made: 1. Diplomacy – the inclusion of a native mechanic that was disabled due to imbalance. 2. Eagle Eye – the inclusion of a native skill mechanic that is currently hardly used. 3. First Aid – enhances an interesting native mechanic that is not used very often.
Therefore, only point 3 can be attributed to "whimsy," but firstly, it is done to balance the native mechanic and the Inferno Castle, and secondly, assess the scale of the change. Of all the possible skill changes, only these 3 passed the filter.
Added 4 minutes ago Ihromant
In general, here are some suggestions. If it is difficult to work on the generator for now (yes, I understand why), then you can fix Necromancy, but not by castration, as in HotA, but by nerfing the Necromancer Castle. Specifically: 1. Make Tanta like Alamar with Jeddite – eternal resurrection of skeletons only with advanced Earth Magic. I think it's not difficult. 2. Fix the Converter. Make the conversion of low-level units proportional to their health, and not 1 to 1 as it is now. That is, 6 peasants -> 1 skeleton. But, as before, 1 Kent -> 1 skeleton.
Under this, you can increase the number of goblins and imps at the start in Barbarians and Inferno. This will strengthen them, and the conversion will be approximately as before.
And secondly. There is a mechanic in the Heroes game that, due to the law of large numbers, large stacks are very likely to have approximately the average damage value. That is, a conditional Clavius enters a 1-unit garrison, and his stack of skeletons deals 125-375 damage. And instead of thinking tactically, he realizes that he will, on average, deal 250 damage and hastes the skeletons and one-shots the stacks. Who abuses this? The strongest castles – Necropolis, Dungeon, and Conflux (2-8 spread for air units). By making the damage distribution uniform, you can subtly weaken them without significantly changing the game mechanics (and spoiling "what the old men have long known, but shouldn't have been abusing").
In general, I'm offering some ideas.
Regarding point 1, there is a similar idea, if, of course, we are talking about the fact that skeletons raised by the "Raise Dead" spell remain after the battle only with advanced/expert Earth Magic.
Regarding the Converter and damage, in my opinion, the changes will not be worth the resulting effect.
Added 8 minutes ago socola
I think, for starters, we should thank Kventin and other modders for their work. But, unfortunately, the effect of such plugins will tend towards zero as long as SoD has a morally outdated and buggy generator. Without reworking the generator, SoD is doomed for online play. In a year or two, only a dozen or so HotA haters, plus a couple of tournaments a year for nostalgia, will play it. All these reworkings of Eagle Eye and First Aid will be worth nothing as long as, in 6lm, in 30% of the generations, blue will have a one-way road. If you care so much about SoD, then only reworking the generator can give it a new life.
I agree, but as I said, only Baratorch can fix the generator now. On JC, it is clear that: There is no function that builds a road from point A to point B. There is a function that connects point A to the existing road network. On the first call, it connects the starting castle of red to the starting castle of blue. Then, the connection of each city to each is checked, and if there is no connection, a road is built to the nearest road network. That is, the frequently encountered "isolated village" spawn is formally not a bug; the algorithm "honestly" builds a road along the shortest path, and it turns out to be the road network of the center, and not the starting castle of the spawn.
Yesterday, we tested version 3 of the Fresh mod. There were many bugs, but I don't know if they are bugs of the Fresh mod, the game itself, or the lobby. I'm attaching links to the videos. Maybe it will be useful.
In short, here's what I remember:
- When we played with three players, we killed one player, and after that, the game took away my gloves, but in return, an army that had already been purchased appeared in the castle, allowing me to buy it again, and the resources that I had exchanged on the market were also returned.
- An icon with a yellow circle appeared on the map, as in the map editor, indicating random artifacts. There was a guard standing on this circle.
- On one of the turns, all heroes and cities simply disappeared.
- When the third player disconnected, the game simply froze. It was not possible to load the game in the lobby with passwords, but it loaded normally outside the lobby.
- In the second game, it is clear that diplomacy is still overpowered (there is a plugin that makes all diplomacy only available for a price; perhaps if you set the prices to be optimally high, it will become more or less balanced).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DmtED94D1i4https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=esOnlKxj458https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xMUPkOB5A_0
Yesterday, we tested version 3 of the Fresh mod. There were many bugs, but I don't know if they are bugs of the Fresh mod, the game itself, or the lobby. I'm attaching links to the videos. It might be useful.
And briefly, what I remember: - When we played with three players, we killed one player, and after that, the game took away my gloves, but in return, an army that had already been purchased appeared in the castle, allowing me to buy it again, and the resources that I had exchanged on the market were also returned. - An icon with a yellow circle appeared on the map, as in the map editor, indicating random artifacts. There was a guard standing on this circle. - On one of the turns, all heroes and cities simply disappeared. - When the third player disconnected, the game simply froze. It was not possible to load the game in the lobby with passwords, but it loaded normally outside the lobby. - In the second game, it is clear that diplomacy is still overpowered (there is a plugin that makes all diplomacy only paid, perhaps if you set the prices optimally expensive, it will become more or less balanced).
Thank you very much for testing. To figure out the bugs, we need save files from the day the bug occurred. Can you upload them? And did all players have only one Fresh Mod connected, and was it the same version? In the first game, one person was definitely playing with version 1.1. Regarding diplomacy: for M maps, the limit was set very roughly. It is difficult to understand from the recording what the opponent's joins were. I think there were also a lot of native troops. The first game is not enough to draw conclusions, but it can be assumed that the limit for M maps should be reduced.
Here are the save files from yesterday and today (there was another game, but today the bug where you can't continue after one player is killed reappeared; no other bugs were found). https://dropmefiles.com/r21uC
passwords: 77 111222 123
Today, all the passwords were the same, but the first password was changed to 33.
The second player, as it turned out, was using version 1.1. Today, he changed to version 3.0.
Don't forget that plugins are optional and can be enabled or disabled as desired.
This has been mentioned before, but it seems necessary to reiterate. Yes, plugins are connected at will, but the peculiarity of Freshmod, as I understand it, is the desire of one player. That is, it is not required that both players connect the plugin and that they have the same version. Moreover, people started writing about this point immediately after the second Freshmod was released, but what happened next? Instead of solving this issue – which is extremely important for online play – a third Freshmod is released.
Kventin
