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I passed the WT source code to Mafia, and he posted it somewhere in open access, like on GitHub. WT is written in ERM, and where ERM was not enough, Delphi was used. There are no problems with porting it to C++, and the Delphi library is not much different from the C library; the main thing is to maintain the format. Ben80
I downloaded the source code, but I didn't bother to figure it out, especially since the size is quite large, and I don't understand ERM.
It would be great if you, when rewriting something for the patcher, posted some code snippets there on handbookhmm, thematically, as it is already organized there.
It's also convenient for storing your own code – there's less chance of losing what you've written. And we could discuss some programming aspects related to Heroes.
I'm not a fan of TE/WT, but if someone really wants to play these versions, their revival is quite possible – at a new technological level, through the Baratorch patcher, and not through ERM. For example, someone could put together a set of plugins (like Armageddon), and here we have WT, essentially with full simultaneous turn-based gameplay and 100% support for the HD mod (because in this case, the HD mod isn't installed on top of WT, but rather the other way around – WT in the form of plugins is installed on top of the HD mod).
The talk about a new technological level is amusing. VOG is a platform for modding, while the HD mod only offers the ability to connect libraries and some mechanization for creating hooks.
Even if we assume that a ready-made WT doesn't exist yet, and there's only a technical specification, it's obvious that it would be easier to implement it on ERM, resorting to low-level programming only in rare cases. Simply put, there are no tools in ERM to implement the functions of the HD mod, so it's natural that Baratorch wasn't interested in VOG.
And once a TE/WT mod is already available, saying that it would be easier to rewrite it from scratch than to eliminate incompatibilities with the HD mod is not serious. Moreover, there's no guarantee that the new mod won't conflict with the HD mod, especially regarding simultaneous turns.
In both cases, everything will depend on Baratorch's willingness to help resolve incompatibilities, since the HD mod's code is closed.
Of course, such an option is quite possible. I myself wrote about this when Mafia started working on mod compatibility. But there's no point in talking about some new level of technological advancement here.
Moreover, ERM offers the ability to create interesting maps and templates.
asm
I gave the WT source code to Mafia; he posted it somewhere in public access, like on GitHub. WT is written in ERM, and where ERM was insufficient, Delphi was used. There are no problems with porting to C++; Delphi libraries are no different from C libraries; the main thing is to maintain the format.
As I understand it, when hypothetically making WT and HD compatible, the WT shell as such is not needed. Template selection is available in HD, chat is not needed, and replaying quick saves is also available in HD.
And in general, it's necessary to abandon duplicate functions, such as quick operations with stacks.
Moreover, ERM provides the opportunity to create interesting maps and templates.
That's precisely why ERM is best suited for this purpose. And for changing the game's algorithms, a patcher and hooks are the best tools. Does the fact that the developers of Heroes once abandoned ERM in favor of a patcher mean anything to you? And why are people still playing Heroes, while the buggy ERM-based WOTG is not?
Because development and support for Hota still exist, while development for the WoG project has long been discontinued.
Because Hota, like the HD mod, was initially created as a project focused on quality and eliminating bugs, both old and new. WoG did not prioritize these aspects. And now, no one will undertake to overhaul and redo it. Read again what asm wrote. Read why he abandoned the project.
Added 10 minutes later So that no one has any illusions – the modding capabilities of the patcher are not comparable to ERM. Anyone who has tried writing DLLs for Heroes knows this feeling that you can do absolutely anything with the game. But the capabilities of ERM are limited to what the ERM developers deemed necessary to program. ERM cannot be used for any serious modding, and most modders who use ERM are well aware of this (except for a few stubborn ones).
ERM is convenient to use for map makers. But, in principle, plugins for the patcher can also be created separately, individually for certain maps or templates. But here, the barrier to entry is probably much higher than for writing ERM scripts. You need not only to study some classic programming language but also to study the addresses and algorithms of the Heroes EXE file.
The two real modding platforms today are Era and the HD mod (even though it wasn't created for this purpose). But in the case of Era, people usually also install the HD mod. Which leads to additional compatibility problems. Do the advantages of Era outweigh these problems? This is something that everyone must decide for themselves.
Indeed, VT, which took over the banner from TE, prioritized game balancing. The development and support of the VT project ceased for quite ordinary reasons: the project was not monetized, it consumed a large amount of time and energy, and this time and energy were redirected according to objective life priorities. The same thing may happen to Hota in the future.
Indeed, VT, having taken over the banner of TE, prioritized game balancing. The development and support of the VT project ceased for quite ordinary reasons: the project was not monetized, it consumed a large amount of life energy, and this life energy was redirected according to objective life priorities. The same thing may happen to HotA in the future.
It is not entirely clear how much money can influence this. There have always been and will always be projects that are created solely on enthusiasm, for free. At the same time, both monetized and free projects still have a finite lifespan. Just like a person, a country, a civilization...
It's great when a project can be taken over and continued by new people. So, regarding Heroes, I think that a project based on a patcher, which initially prioritizes the timely elimination of all kinds of bugs, has a greater chance of having successors than any other. It is obvious that a project that was already known for its quality and stability during its "lifetime" is more likely to be taken over than one that was abandoned by its creators because an unacceptable number of bugs had accumulated.
Ben, I don't really object. Besides, the main reasons for the termination of the VT project are much more prosaic than bugs (those in the know are well aware of this). To put it bluntly, if you're doing something for free and you find yourself in a situation where you no longer have the free time to do something for free, then you stop.
There's no arguing that Hota (in part thanks to the relatively larger number of developers) has a better chance of survival.
And how much money can influence things is quite obvious. I have n possible working hours per day. I have x needs per day. If the amount of money earned in a day does not cover x, then I have to work harder. At the same time, free projects are lower on the priority list than my own survival and that of my family. If, to put it bluntly, Hota brings the developers some tangible financial support, then the described situation (in which they will have to "abandon" the project due to the aforementioned equation) will be much less likely. That is, monetizing the project does not guarantee anything absolutely, but it simply creates more opportunities for the project to develop, thereby increasing the expected lifespan of the project. But - in any case, it is the personal choice of the Hota team: if a person wants to work for free, that is his right, and if a person does not want to work for free, then that is even more his right.
And arguing about whether monetization is good or not is the same as arguing about whether a person should be paid for the work they do, or not... In a market economy, it is obvious that you have to pay for work.
zoog
7 years ago
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The first fan-made modification that doesn't feel out of place. It really revitalizes the game, in my opinion.
In the case of ERA, people usually still install the HD mod as well. This leads to additional compatibility issues. Do the advantages of ERA outweigh these problems? That's something everyone has to decide for themselves.
Ben80, with a good understanding of the subject, I'll point out that it's not entirely correct to talk about it this way. Yes, not all features of the HD mod can be integrated into ERA, and this is partly why they were included in HD+, but this does not mean that there are compatibility issues between them. The advantages of the HD mod for ERA are, without exaggeration, enormous. Almost all of its main functionality was available in HD (if we're talking about version 4 of HD). The main problem is that Baratortchu (as he has repeatedly stated) doesn't enjoy modding WoG/TE. I understand this perfectly because even with the source code, the WoG/TE code is still a huge mess (I experienced this firsthand when I rewrote the WoG dialogues for the native Heroes engine). And controlling what the scripts do (which are mostly made haphazardly) is almost impossible.
But I can't help but agree that ERM is catastrophically weak compared to plugins on the patcher because I know firsthand what it's like to write in ERM and in "patcher & C++". On the patcher, you can practically do anything.
And, in my opinion, reviving WT is a pointless endeavor. There's too much to catch up on. Too much effort for nothing. The game is simply not worth it.
Let no one be under any illusions – the modding capabilities of the patcher are in no way comparable to ERM. Anyone who has tried writing DLLs for Heroes knows this feeling that you can do absolutely anything with the game. But the capabilities of ERM are limited by what the ERM developers deemed necessary to program. ERM cannot be used for any serious modding, and most modders who use ERM are well aware of this (except for a few stubborn ones).
And how many gameplay mods have been created based on the HD SDK? It has existed for quite some time. But several mods have been created on the ERM platform. When at least one is created, then we can talk.
For example, I didn't need any HD patcher to implement a Vault of the Titans with a much wider range of features than the SoD/HotA Vault, although it already existed at that time. Although, of course, it wasn't entirely possible to avoid patching the executable. But without ERM, I probably wouldn't have even started this. So, which platform is more convenient/technologically advanced?
Or here's another good example: this topic. How much effort would it take to improve it to the state it was in in Vault of the Titans without the help of ERM (this is purely a technical issue, not a matter of necessity)? With ERM, the issue was resolved in a few days. In Vault of the Titans, a similar mod would not only replace the contents but also the guards of the Hive/Conflux, allowing you to reorder the contents in the dialogue window and view the guard arrangement in the info window.
That is, the disadvantage of the mod on the ERM platform is the lack of compatibility with the HD mod, and not at all in the shortcomings of the platform itself.
Ben80
The two real modding platforms at the moment are Era and the HD mod (even though it wasn't created for this purpose). But in the case of Era, they usually also install the HD mod. Which leads to additional compatibility issues. Do the advantages of Era outweigh these problems? This is something that everyone has to decide for themselves.
Era is the development of Wog, as a platform for modding, and HD is an interface mod. So there is no contradiction in their joint use. Just as there is no contradiction in using the HD patcher in Era (as far as I know).
If the HD patcher is a technologically advanced platform for modding, then BC++, VC++, etc. are much more technologically advanced. I think that if Baratorch took on creating a platform for modding Heroes, it would turn out to be at least as good as the ERM platform.
MerlinTheMagician
Correct, Vault of the Titans, which picked up the banner from The Eastern Promise, prioritized game balancing. The development and support of the Vault of the Titans project ceased for quite ordinary reasons: the project was not monetized, it took a lot of life resources, and these life resources were redirected in accordance with objective life priorities.
Players left mainly because of incompatibility with the HD mod. Here, the developers' inability to eliminate this incompatibility is certainly related to a lack of resources, whether time or skills. But it should be noted that such a task was initially difficult to accomplish, because the HD mod is constantly being developed, and its solution is only possible with the help of Baratorch. Any mod without compatibility with the HD mod will initially be at a disadvantage, because it will be necessary to repeat the same functionality. And in terms of gameplay, Vault of the Titans remains more interesting for many players compared to HotA.igrik
But I can't help but agree that ERM is catastrophically weak compared to plugins on the patcher - because I myself know what it's like to write in ERM and in "patcher & C++". On the patcher, you can practically do anything.
There are tasks that can be solved using ERM - there, ERM is more convenient. And that you can practically do anything in C++ - who is arguing? You can also do it in machine code.
If, roughly speaking, Hota brings the developers some tangible financial support, then the described situation (in which they will have to "abandon" the project due to the aforementioned equation) will be much less likely. That is, monetizing the project does not guarantee anything absolutely, but it simply creates more opportunities for the project's development.
I see everyone is just chatting here. So, I'll join in. And where is the guarantee that they won't simply fall out with each other? Like, I wrote the code, I'm great, so I deserve more money. And the artist will say, what about me? I drew a new Castle, a low-budget unit, and so on. And someone will talk about the plot. But the coder will say that he is constantly coding, while you came up with a plot or drew a unit and that's it. Money is a topic that breeds envy from a "sense of injustice." Therefore, their desire to work for free is understandable to me. I am 1000% sure that Baratorch is viewed very negatively in the team, and many even with hidden hatred, because of the monetization of his online lobby. How so, why are the others not getting any profit, even symbolic, and where is the justice? etc.
The format of a free project was definitely chosen not by chance. In order to preserve it and develop it, and not to divide the money.
I am 1000% sure that Baratorch is viewed very negatively within the team, and many even harbor hidden resentment towards him because of the monetization of his online lobby. How is it that the others don't receive any benefit, not even a symbolic one, and where is the fairness?
It seems to me that only a greedy person could write something like that. I'm sorry.
