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#186
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MerlinTheMagician
1. Please name a job or jobs that should not be paid for at all.
2. Please name the number of man-hours you have worked on such a job completely without pay.
3. And please answer one simple question: how will a person live in your hypothetical system of coordinates if, according to your twisted logic, they have no right to be paid for their work in any form (assuming that there are people in this system who are paid for their work)?

First, answer my questions, then ask your own. Just don't spout this nonsense again. I didn't write anywhere that a person should live based on unpaid work and/or that unpaid work takes up a significant part or all of their working time. It's just nonsense. If a person is engaged in work that they enjoy, that brings them satisfaction, then they are willing to do it without material reward, if they want to (i.e., they have the time). And with your reasoning, you are increasingly reminding me of a person with a twisted logic.
Хаос - это порядок, которым сложнее управлять.

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#187
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Heroin_HP
I understand everything perfectly. There is no difference between users, whether they buy something on the site or just write messages or do nothing at all; they are all the same users.
From a legal point of view, the difference is significant: in the case of purchasing any product, including software, publishers have formal obligations to the consumer, and the consumer has many formal rights. When using a free product, publishers have no formal obligations to the user; the user has the right to use the product fully and completely on the terms set by the publishers or not to use it at all.
The standard form "Please, sign me up..." in a literary translation will be exactly "I ask you to register me..." (and not "please register me..." - this is not how people speak or write). And there is nothing bad in the word "ask" itself, there is no humiliation, and moreover, this word has nothing to do with "the Soviet era"; it existed long before: "I ask you to sit down" means sit down, "I ask you to register" means register.
To claim that someone is an alcoholic and to bring "the Soviet era" into it, to accuse someone of nitpicking words (while nitpicking oneself over one single harmless word) is the height of inadequacy or the height of conscious hypocrisy.
Нам это идеально подойдёт! (с)

"Совесть - она либо есть, либо её нет" (с) RedWhait HP
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#188
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MerlinTheMagician
I also read this nonsense. Go ahead, explain it to me. A grown man is complaining about a specific word in the button's name (which, according to your post, everyone should...). This specific word doesn't offend or humiliate anyone in principle, and that's what all my answers are about. Furthermore, this grown man accuses others of nitpicking specific words... while he himself starts a fuss over a specific word (and then receives further linguistic analysis in response)...
Honestly, it's not funny anymore...

I'm not nitpicking; I specifically stated that I want the button to be replaced with "want" or another similar term. It's customary to ask for things in the USSR and all government agencies; everywhere, you need to ask for what you're not obligated to ask for. The constitution and laws protect you, but you act like a slave, constantly asking and being grateful for it.
Stop rambling, Merlin. If you grew up as a serf, you can't be taught entrepreneurship, and you'll spend your whole life thanking fate for free cheese.

Added 4 minutes ago
Heroin_HP
I read this nonsense. What do organizations and their work have to do with the text of this button? The developers created it for convenience. In web development, whether it's a website or an application, there's a concept called friendly usability. The idea is to make the site as user-friendly as possible, so that users like it and stay on the site instead of going to competitors. This is achieved through everything from design to convenient buttons, sliders, tabs, animations, and more, ending with elaborate content and a bunch of other interesting features. In short, to avoid writing a long text, the situation here is slightly different with users (everyone should...), but the essence is the same.
If you like it, let it be that way!
Petya +1

I didn't even get to usability; why would I? If people find some magical connection between the free work of organizations and how the button should be named, and the example with the offer caused nonsense, just ignore it.
Хаос - это порядок, которым сложнее управлять.

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#189
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Petya, stop hallucinating – there’s no button with the word “please” on the forum.

Added 5 minutes later
Piterius
What is considered polite to ask for in the USSR and all state institutions? Everywhere, you need to ask for something that you are not obliged to ask for.
I don’t understand what you’re talking about. I live in a market economy. If I paid money, then if there are formal obligations before me, I can demand (as early as tomorrow, I will have a court hearing to protect consumer rights with “MTS”).
If I didn’t pay money, that is, if there are no formal obligations before me, I can only ask, and they can refuse: the same example with beer.
What I’m talking about. I’m talking about the fact that no one has any obligations to you here.
Нам это идеально подойдёт! (с)

"Совесть - она либо есть, либо её нет" (с) RedWhait HP
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#190
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MerlinTheMagician

If I haven't paid, meaning if I don't have any formal obligations, I can only ask, and they can refuse – like the beer example.
I'm talking about the fact that no one here has any obligations to you.

According to your subjective opinion, you can even kneel. I don't care.
If there's no button, stop ranting with your one and only correct opinion.
Хаос - это порядок, которым сложнее управлять.

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#192
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Piterius
I never wrote that a person should live based on unpaid work, and/or that unpaid work should take up a significant part or all of their working time.
Piterius
In my worldview, not every job needs to/can be paid for in principle, regardless of what it is.
And who here is accusing whom of being "Soviet-minded"? In the USSR, there was a lot of unpaid work, which people like you were indoctrinated with and taught to think in a flawed way, believing that someone owes them something.
In reality, within a monetary-market economy, no one owes anyone anything.
And in my worldview, if a person works (that is, spends their time and performs actions that are useful to someone), they have the right to be paid for their labor. Their spent time is money.
They can choose to do something for someone for free, but they still retain the right to be paid: at any moment, they can stop doing anything, and no one has the right to demand anything from them or dictate anything to them.
Нам это идеально подойдёт! (с)

"Совесть - она либо есть, либо её нет" (с) RedWhait HP
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#193
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MerlinTheMagician
And who here is accusing whom of being "Soviet-minded"? In the USSR, there was a lot of unpaid work, which people like you were indoctrinated with and taught to think in a flawed way, believing that someone owes them something.
In reality, within a monetary and market-based system, no one owes anyone anything.
And in my worldview, if a person works (i.e., spends their time and performs actions that are useful to someone), they have the right to be paid for their labor. Their time spent is money.
They can, of their own free will, do something for someone for free, but they still retain the right to be paid: at any moment, they can stop doing anything, and no one has the right to demand anything from them or dictate anything to them.

And where did I write that "all work" should be paid? Keep your own interpretations to yourself. If, in your understanding, work means all or almost all possible activities, then that's not my fault. There are hobbies and passions.
If your worldview cannot accommodate the possibility of performing some part of one's work without pay, then that's not my fault.
If, at your age, you still think that payment for work is the most important thing in work, then that's not my fault.
Stop, enough with enveloping this world with your gray magic.
Хаос - это порядок, которым сложнее управлять.

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#194
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Petya, you yourself wrote that "In my worldview, not every task should/can be paid for in principle, regardless of what it is paid with."
These are your words, not mine.
Once again, someone may do something for free out of their own free will, but at the same time, they owe nothing to anyone.
And when you don't owe me anything, I can get something from you either by asking or by unlawful and criminal means.
At the same time, it doesn't demean me at all when I'm a guest at the table and ask to pass me the salt. And it doesn't demean my friends at all if they come to me with some kind of request.
Нам это идеально подойдёт! (с)

"Совесть - она либо есть, либо её нет" (с) RedWhait HP
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#195
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MerlinTheMagician
Petya, you yourself wrote that "In my worldview, not every task should/can be paid for in principle, regardless of what it's paid with."
These are your words, not mine.
Once again, someone may do something for free out of their own free will, but at the same time, they don't owe anyone anything.
And when you don't owe me anything, I can only get something from you either by asking or by illegal and criminal means.

The problem is that you see a cause-and-effect relationship here, but I don't. Not at all.
People help the forum for free because they enjoy it. They receive non-material rewards for it; their brain rewards their body with happiness hormones from the fact of being involved and other non-material values. This cannot be measured in any money or pleas. But then Merlin appears and invents his own economic model. He says that if it's free, then it must somehow be paid for. Well, at least with pleas. Okay, but this is just a point of view, forced by the desire to destroy my message. In my opinion, that's all it is.
Maybe you should ask the organizers how pleasant it is for them to receive thanks for their work in the form of pleas. That would be more objective than what you're trying to prove to me.
Хаос - это порядок, которым сложнее управлять.

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#196
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MerlinTheMagician

To claim that someone is just sitting around and bringing up "the Soviet era," and to accuse someone of nitpicking words (while nitpicking oneself over a single, harmless word) is the height of absurdity or the height of deliberate hypocrisy.

This is the last time I'm writing to you. I wrote to you from the perspective of web API development. The fact that you were arguing about something doesn't really interest me, and moreover, I didn't suggest changing anything.
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#197
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MerlinTheMagician

At the same time, I don't feel demeaned when I ask someone to pass the salt to me at the dinner table. And my friends don't feel demeaned when they ask me for something.

Imagine that the mechanism for fulfilling your requests is not based on your asking, but because your friends enjoy fulfilling your requests. The request itself may be necessary, but it is not a sufficient condition. They are ready to help you without you asking, if they enjoy doing so.
Хаос - это порядок, которым сложнее управлять.

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#198
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to Piterius
I ask you to stop comparing the polite word "please" with truly archaic words like "slave" or "serf"; it's just ridiculous! Come up with other arguments if you want to continue this discussion in a constructive way.
艰难获胜 herolwy
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#199
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Petya, I already explained it to you.
I have nothing against the word "please" in the context of the forum, because neither the organizers, nor the hosts, nor the moderators have any obligations towards me. They don't owe me anything. And they don't owe you anything either.
They voluntarily perform certain work on a pro bono basis, which in itself can be measured in monetary terms. That is, they are essentially sponsors: an employee is someone who receives money for their work, a volunteer is someone who doesn't receive money—but their expenses are compensated (working for food, roughly speaking), and a sponsor is someone who contributes their own resource in one useful form or another.
I repeat, if you say at the table: "Give me the salt!" — that's your right, just as it's my right not to invite you to my table again; in such cases, I say: "Pass me the salt, please." For the majority sitting at the table called "HeroesWorld", the second option is the accepted norm of communication. If it's different for you, then that is your strictly personal problem.
Нам это идеально подойдёт! (с)

"Совесть - она либо есть, либо её нет" (с) RedWhait HP
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#200
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You're all discussing the Soviet Union, but I communicate with foreigners. And compared to our modest "please," there's a lot of subservience and groveling. For example:
"could you please,"
"would you like,"
and other things. In fact, almost every sentence in business correspondence with some "Soviet-style" entity contains this. Something like that.
They can't even say "no"; they have to say "yes, but..."
Мой любимьій размер - тройка. Будь то конса, утопа или сиськи
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#201
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MerlinTheMagician
Petya, I already explained to you.
I have nothing against the word "please" in the context of the forum, because neither the organizers, nor the hosts, nor the moderators have any obligations towards me. They don't owe me anything. And they don't owe you anything either.
They voluntarily perform certain work on a pro bono basis, which in itself can be measured in monetary terms. That is. They are a kind of sponsor: an employee is someone who receives money for their work, a volunteer is someone who does not receive money — but is compensated for their losses (works for food, roughly speaking), a sponsor is someone who invests their resources in one useful form or another.
I repeat, if you say at the table: "pass the salt!" — that is your right, just as it is my right not to invite you to my table again; I, in such cases, say: "Please pass the salt." For the majority of those sitting at the table called "HeroesWorld", the second is the accepted norm of communication. If it's different for you — then that is strictly your personal problem.

You've really tired me out with your explanations and obligations. Realizing that you can't explain anything to me, you're trying to assert yourself on the forum at my expense with these explanations. Despite repeated requests to stop.

All sorts of other examples start pouring in, again "politeness" and assumptions. I understand that knocking the "supplicant" archetype out of your head is a virtually unsolvable task, as it's overlaid with a mass of spiritual values like politeness, unspoken obligations, and established traditions. But if this topic has touched anyone at all, I'll be glad.
Let's wrap this up, please.
Хаос - это порядок, которым сложнее управлять.

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