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Posts from Appeals Committee. Disputed situations in tournaments.

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Offline Timbuktu
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Posts: 389
#1777
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I request that the AC review the disputed moment in the "cm-master" tournament: the opponent passed through the respawn point on the way, without breaking through the shifted guard.
I will send the save and passwords in a private message.
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Offline Dirty_Player
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#1778
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Timbuktu
I request that the AC review the disputed moment in the "cm-master" tournament: the opponent passed through the respawn point on the way, without breaking through the shifted guard.
I will send the save and passwords in a private message.
Is the judge unable to resolve such a simple issue? Is the intervention of the AC necessary? :smile35:
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Offline sir Davos Seaworth
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#1779
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Dirty_Player
Can't the judge decide on such a simple matter? Is intervention from the Arbitration Committee necessary? :smile35:
The opinions of the tournament judges are divided. It has been suggested to continue the game or to appeal to the Arbitration Committee.
"There's no need to execute me,sir Davos . I'll be dead before dawn."
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Offline korovka1987
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#1780
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Dirty_Player
And the judge is unable to resolve such a simple question? Is intervention from the AC required? :smile35:
2 out of 3 judges believe there was no violation, since there are 2 passages there, one of which is unguarded, and the game can continue.
And comrade Timbuktu was initially counting on a tech win and did not go to the adjacent zone from the snow until week 4. That is, to put it mildly, unsportsmanlike.
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Offline Dirty_Player
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#1781
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korovka1987
There was no violation, as there are 2 paths, one of which is not guarded, and the game can continue.
Based on the screenshot, I don't see any reason to think otherwise.
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Offline sir Davos Seaworth
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#1782
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Dirty_Player
Based on the screenshot, I don't see any reason to think otherwise.

So, golems guard the passage along the dirt road, near the boars? But they don't seem to be any closer to it than to the main road.
"There's no need to execute me,sir Davos . I'll be dead before dawn."
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Offline Dirty_Player
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#1783
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Sir Davos Seaworth
But they are clearly not closer to him than to the road.
Well, I wouldn't say that. Ideally, the guards should be positioned at the border between the snow and the swamp. Therefore, it is logical to assume that the golems are much closer to the right passage.
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Offline Timbuktu
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#1784
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Thank you for the analysis. But why is there a rule in the SMK (presumably referring to a game mode or map) that you must break through into adjacent zones, if you can only do that every other time? This only creates controversial situations.

Added 2 hours 29 minutes later
korovka1987
2 out of 3 judges believe that there was no violation, as there are 2 paths, one of which is not guarded, and the game can continue.
And, comrade Timbuktu, initially relied on tech and didn't go for a mix with snow for 4 weeks. This is, to put it mildly, unsportsmanlike.
It's unsportsmanlike to post screenshots from an unfinished game on the forum. And it is necessary to know and use the current rules.
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Offline MerlinTheMagician
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#1785
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Dirty_Player
I wouldn't say so. Ideally, the guard should be positioned at the border between the snow and the swamp. Therefore, it's logical to assume that the golems are much closer to the right passage.
Kostya, ideally, there shouldn't be this off-road passage at all, and the guard should be stationed on the road.
"2.6.5. If there is no guard at the passage, it is allowed to move freely from one zone to another," right?
I wonder how the same situation would be interpreted if it were a Jebus... What do we have? Can you pass to the center without breaking through, if, by some mysterious means, a guard doesn't generate on the road passage, but it does on the off-road passage? I don't think so. It seems that you can't use the buggy passage to the center, which is generated without a guard, until you break through the guard on the other passage...

And with the wording from the rules, I can bypass any guard at the passage that I can somehow bypass: if it's not on the road, but I can easily pass on the road, "then they are guarding the off-road," or vice versa - if there are five monsters near the road, and I can bypass them on the off-road, "then they are guarding the road passage"...

However, the opponent coming from the other side objectively has no way of knowing that the passage has not been broken through, and the opponent who has this information should have informed them upon discovering their hero, in accordance with the principles of fair play. Therefore, there can be no talk of any violation. Especially about awarding a technical defeat. If Timbuktu immediately reported it on the day the opponent used the passage and it was saved immediately, then the opponent either breaks through the guard or leaves. But if he waited a couple of days and couldn't outmaneuver, then it's too late...
Нам это идеально подойдёт! (с)

"Совесть - она либо есть, либо её нет" (с) RedWhait HP
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Offline Grando
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#1786
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I think the main thing to learn is to save the game when you're unsure about the rules. Yes, it can sometimes seem a bit silly. And it's possible that your opponent will complain and get angry about the game being paused. But you can leave that on their conscience. The alternative is even worse. You might end up in a controversial situation, with suspicions of cheating, lose momentum because you're afraid to make a move, or, conversely, make a move that turns out to be illegal and get penalized, or even have to replay the game. It's better to take a screenshot, save the game, and immediately ask a judge about the issue as soon as it arises. This will save the game, your nerves, and the time of the good people in the Arbitration Committee.
https://www.twitch.tv/grando__
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Offline XIII
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#1787
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Obviously, the golems are a misplaced guard for the passage with the road. The second passage is bugged (the obelisk destroyed the terrain). The fact that they are standing closer to the bugged area is purely coincidental, as there are no guards in bugged areas.
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Offline kamukag3e
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#1788
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Al Feyn
He saves games, nerves, and time for good players from the Arbitration Committee.
I apologize in advance for the off-topic comment to the members of the Arbitration Committee, but Alfein's posts, and not only his, often contain phrases that are frustrating. Lately, any appeal to the Arbitration Committee is immediately considered as an attempt to harass the opponent, rather than an attempt to clarify the rules. And what if a player decides to write to the Arbitration Committee, does that already mean that the game and his nerves cannot be saved in a particular situation, but the Arbitration Committee is meant to save the time of other good players by reviewing this situation? Why write about the time that the Arbitration Committee spends on this, if the Arbitration Committee is designed for this purpose? At the same time, everyone understands that no rules can unambiguously describe all the problematic situations that arise in the game.
Since the beginning of 2017, the results of reviewing appeals to the Arbitration Committee have ceased to be published. I, and not only I, have the impression that there is no point in writing to the Arbitration Committee.
I believe that the review of various controversial situations in the Arbitration Committee with a public announcement of the verdict on the situation should encourage changes to the rules if necessary, or if there is no clear position and the opinion of the community is needed, then a vote can be held, as was the case with the Redraw and Grail issues.
艰难获胜 herolwy
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Offline korovka1987
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Posts: 362
#1789
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Timbuktu
It's not fair to post screenshots from an unfinished game on the forum.
I posted a small excerpt that both players have explored, without mini-maps or anything else that could give either player an advantage.
I believe the complaints are unfounded.

However, everyone can now clearly understand the situation being discussed.
And, as we can see, everyone interprets it in their own way.
And this is not an isolated case. Many disputes arise, and even judges don't always come to a consensus.
Especially when the question arises between zones with the same terrain.
I think the best solution would be to allow players to pass by shifted guards into other zones (except for the Dungeon, of course).
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Offline Timbuktu
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#1790
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korovka1987
I posted a small excerpt that both players had scouted, without minimaps or anything else that could give either player an advantage.
I believe the complaints are unfounded.

However, the situation in question is now clear to everyone.
And, as we can see, everyone interprets it in their own way.
And this is not an isolated case. Many disputes arise, and even the judges do not always come to a consensus.
Especially when the question arises between zones with the same terrain.
I think the best solution would be to allow players to pass by the shifted guards into other zones (except for the Guardian Outpost, of course) on the Strategic Map.
PROger (18.10.2018 17:43):
so why are there complaints about me then?

TIMBUKTU 2 (18.10.2018 17:43):
there aren't, it's just the situation

TIMBUKTU 2 (18.10.2018 17:44):
and a question about applying the rules, since they exist

PROger (18.10.2018 17:44):
what?) it's already the 4th week, these guards don't matter anymore...

TIMBUKTU 2 (18.10.2018 17:44):
they don't matter in the first week either

PROger (18.10.2018 17:44):
well, luckily for me, there was a passage behind the boars

TIMBUKTU 2 (18.10.2018 17:44):
the rule is absurd, there are always crooked roads and guards on the Strategic Map

PROger (18.10.2018 17:44):
to be honest, I didn't see it until the screenshot

TIMBUKTU 2 (18.10.2018 17:45):
we just need to require hitting the Guardian Outpost

Korovka, as you can see, even though both players have scouted a piece of the map, I don't know what he has scouted, and he didn't know what I had. It's clear that the swamp respawn is in the Veil of Darkness. Before the screenshot, he couldn't know that I didn't have that area
scouted, for example, with a scout. A skilled player will find information from any screenshot of the opponent that they could not have obtained without it.

I agree that the rule about hitting the Guardian Outpost is the only one that should be mandatory.
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Offline PROger
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#1791
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Are you out of your mind to post private messages for everyone to see?
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DiscordPROger#1674

http://heroes3.tv/PROger
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