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In reply to Mercurial-
#667
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Mercurial-
Apparently, you either need to heavily invest in him or not bother with him at all if it's not absolutely necessary. That's how "rush" strategies usually play out:D
And having your main hero attack "rush" units is not a kingly thing to do!)
What do you mean by "the same"?)) Also, keep in mind that this is often a time-sensitive situation: either you've already taken the utopia, having spent a considerable amount of resources, or you're about to, and against a "rush" unit with 7 speed and a basic lightning bolt attack, you need a *lot* of resources. And what does it mean to "not bother" with it if it's not critical? Just let it capture your castles and scout your territory peacefully?) Such "rush" units that get close to one of your cities are usually killed with a quick, powerful main force (which doesn't necessarily mean using your main hero) like a few angels and a stack of archers, so as not to lose too much. But with an Armageddon's Blade with a positive effect, it becomes an easy autoloss.
discord: LuckyF#3482
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#668
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While the balance makers are still pondering, I suggest that fathers and grandfathers discuss a working version of a gentleman's agreement.

Armageddon (obtained anywhere) cannot be used until GM 5 is established.

I understand that this nerfs the movement speed on level 5, but this is a formulation that can be used as a starting point for discussion.
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In reply to LuckyF
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#669
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LuckyF
In what way?)) Also keep in mind that this is often the time when you've either already taken the Dragon Utopia spending a fair amount of life steal, or are just about to, and for such a loser with 7 SP and a basic Chain Lightning, you need reaaaally a lot of life steal. And what do you mean by not touching him if it's not critical? Just let him capture your Castles and scout your territory peacefully?) Losers like that who have gotten close to one of your cities are usually killed off by the main fast powerful (this doesn't necessarily mean "OP") units, like a few Angels and a stack of ducks, so as not to lose too many. But with Armageddon present, given the positive effect, it becomes an easy autolose.
No, well that's just not fair!))) So the opponent is supposed to somehow find Armageddon, Efreets, or Phoenixes with life steal in agony (considering he also wants to take Dragon Utopias), get his hero to 7 SP and send all that your way! And you want to easily counter this with your main army against a loser without much cost or hassle. Have a conscience and also designate some support unit with good magic and life steal)))

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In reply to Mercurial-
#670
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Mercurial-
No, that's just not fair!))) It means the opponent has to somehow struggle to find Armageddon, Efreet, or Phoenixes with burn (considering they also want to take Dragon Utopia), level up a hero to 7 SP and send all that your way! And you just want to easily counter it with your main army on a fool without any particular cost or hassle. Have a conscience and also designate some support unit with good magic and burn)))
In what struggle? It's enough to simply clear a level 4 shrine along the path and get lucky finding Armageddon there. Or if you build a guild in Necropolis, Dungeon, or Inferno, Armageddon can also just appear immediately. Efreet and Phoenixes aren't mandatory conditions either; fire-based units with a small amount of other burn will do, and you can even just commit suicide with Armageddon if the opponent attacks with something substantial. Meanwhile, what are you supposed to do if your main force is nearby? Run away from such a foolish opponent? And as for first-move speed, that's also a questionable story on week 2 against Swamp and Inferno or a found Scarlet Tower. I simply don't understand why artificially create such additional dispute, which in some—albeit infrequent—situations will lead to an easy auto-lose?
I have nothing against Armageddon, but obtaining it definitely needs to be made harder; it's just too OP during early contacts. The option of moving it to level 5 looks quite normal in this regard.
discord: LuckyF#3482
icq: 681350680
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#671
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I repeat once again. I've played a lot of games in the new hotfix. 30+ on HL+U and 10-20 on other difficulties. The situation described above didn't occur even once in the 2nd week.
szopa666: ban JC win game Keepo
#672
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well, I had a thought:

Added 3 minutes later
Like, when the bug with the Admiral's hat was allowed in Conflux, people also said that it was a very rare occurrence, so let's leave it as a feature... Until it was used once in a tournament, and then a wave of complaints arose. Although I'm sure that most people hadn't encountered it even after 100+ games at that time.
discord: LuckyF#3482
icq: 681350680
In reply to =Lizard=
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#673
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=Lizard=
Armageddon should definitely be a 5th-level spell, just like it was in "one of the versions."
In "one of the versions," there was experience for troops, and the stacks of Viv-Angels were also larger in number. Also, Antimagic was a multi-school spell, so it was present in almost all final builds. Because of this, there weren't any problems with Armageddon.
In reply to Wicc
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#674
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Wicc
In "version 1," there was experience gained from troops, and the stacks of viv-angels were larger in number. Also, antimagic was a multi-school spell, so it was present in almost all final builds. Because of this, there were no problems with arcanum.

What you described doesn't affect the fact that this spell clearly deserves to be level 5. I would say it's clearly more useful, stronger, and used more often than sacrifice. Swapping their levels seems like the optimal solution to me. No one will shout "hooray!" when they get a level 4 sacrifice in a shrine.
http://ru.twitch.tv/lizard_wt
In reply to =Lizard=
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#675
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=Lizard=
What you described has no effect whatsoever on the fact that this spell clearly belongs at level 5. I would say it is clearly more useful, stronger, and used more often than Sacrifice. Swapping them seems like the optimal solution to me. No one will be shouting "hurrah!" upon receiving a level 4 Sacrifice in a shrine.
Moving Armageddon to level 5 will double the chances of finding it in the Dragon Utopia. Therefore, the effect might be opposite to what is expected. But it will decrease the chance of building Armageddon in the guild. So it might not be. This is why I called this proposal controversial.

If the problem is specifically with shrines, then it should be solved from the shrine side. Especially since the level of Armageddon is "pure canon," while level 4 shrines are HotA's innovation, so they are treated with less reverence.
In reply to Wicc
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#676
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Wicc
Moving Armageddon to level 5 will double the chances of finding it in the Dragon Utopia. Therefore, the effect may be opposite to what is expected. But it will decrease the chance of building Armageddon in the guild. So it might not happen. That's why I called this proposal controversial.

If the problem is specifically with shrines, then it should be solved from the side of the shrines. Especially since the level of Armageddon is "canon," while 4th-level shrines are HotA's innovation, so they are treated with less reverence.

What you described in the first paragraph is exactly what solves the problem raised by people above))) You can get a lot of things in the Dragon Utopia, and besides, you actually have to be able to take that utopia. But a 4th-level shrine and GM4 are very, very simple, not comparable to the level of influence on the game that an early Armageddon has.
http://ru.twitch.tv/lizard_wt
In reply to =Lizard=
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#677
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=Lizard=
What you described in the first paragraph is exactly what solves the problem that people mentioned above))) You can get a lot of things in the Abyss, so go ahead and take that Abyss creature. But a Shrine level 4 and a Guardian level 4 are very, very easy to obtain, and it's not comparable to the impact of an early Arcomage on the game.
So far, out of all the Arcomages I've seen in streams, 100% of them were used in the final stages of the game, after the Abyss. I haven't seen anyone "build an early Arcomage and immediately crush the opponent" even once. Perhaps it happened to someone, but given the rarity of this event, changing the Canon specifically for it seems like a dubious idea. IMHO, you need to look for a different idea.

When you suggest an idea, think about whether it will actually help? And what to do if it doesn't help? The approach of "added -> turned out to be bad -> rolled back" is not a kosher way to balance the game.
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#678
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By the way, in the fifth installment of Heroes of Might and Magic, Armageddon is a 5th-level spell and it costs quite a lot of mana.
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In reply to Wicc
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#679
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Wicc
So far, out of all the Arcomages I've seen in streams, 100% of them were used in the final stages after the initial setup. I haven't seen anyone "build an early Arcomage and immediately defeat their opponent" even once. Perhaps it happened to someone, but given the rarity of this event, changing the Canon specifically for it seems like a dubious idea. In my opinion, a different idea should be explored.

When you suggest an idea, think about whether it will actually help. And what to do if it doesn't help? The approach of "added -> turned out to be bad -> reverted" is not a kosher way to balance the game.

I am absolutely sure that swapping the Arcomage and the Sacrifice is a positive solution.
http://ru.twitch.tv/lizard_wt
In reply to =Lizard=
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#680
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=Lizard=
I am absolutely certain that swapping Arcomage and Sacrifice is a positive solution.
I'm not interested in a "positive" solution, but an effective one. To resolve the Arcomage issue.

And I'm somehow sure that a simple swap won't be enough for this. So, "something else" is needed... and that "something else" should be considered before the swap, not after. Perhaps a brilliant idea will come up that will make the swap unnecessary.
In reply to MikeM
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#681
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I don't think anyone doubts that Armageddon could easily be placed on level 5, but this isn't the only example of a spell that could be moved. If we're going to move things around, we should move everything at once, but that's a subject of heated debate. For now, if the issue is specifically about free shrines, the problem can be solved by addressing them, as Vick suggested.