Skip to content

Posts from Appeals Committee. Disputed situations in tournaments. Auto-translated

No ratings yet — be the first to rate!
#1666
Auto-translated
Appeal to the Appeals Commission regarding the second game of the BO3 series in the Blitz-Jebus Cross - 3 (SOD) tournament.
I will describe the disputable situation that arose in the game with player Jelen117:
1. The game: Jelen117 as Conflux, color red, kamukag3e as Dungeon, color blue.
2. On his turn 112, player Jelen117 writes to me in the game chat that he does not have a road guard on the path to the central treasure zone, and asks me whether this is a technical restart. I reply that, in my opinion, it is not, but he can take a regular restart. At that moment, neither Jelen117 nor I knew the exact interpretation of the rules, otherwise why would we have been discussing it in the chat. Therefore, Jelen117 said he would ask more experienced players about this situation. Meanwhile, I asked Jelen several times in the chat if he wanted to take a restart, and each time received a negative answer. (a video recording of the game is available from player NikoStar; I can provide it if necessary; the correspondence in the game chat is visible on the recording).
2. In the end, Jelen117 skipped his turn 112, and I played my turn 112 completely. Then a message came from the tournament referee Ihromant asking me to send the save file from the game to check if there was a technical restart. At the same time, player Jelen117 left the game (either on my turn 112 or on his turn 113 — this can be seen on the video recording), without writing anything to me before leaving.
3. I immediately sent the save and password to the referee. After reviewing the saves, the referee determined that it was a restart but did not immediately tell me what kind of restart. After a short correspondence in ICQ, the referee showed me a screenshot of the opponent's map. After that, I clarified that the guard was indeed present, just not on the central road. The referee then forwarded me a rule clause stating that this is a restart at the player's discretion, and that he wishes to take a restart on turn 111. At that moment, I did not argue with the referee, as I needed time to think through the situation.
4. In my opinion, the referee made an incorrect decision regarding the game, as he did not investigate all the circumstances of the situation described above, namely Section III, clause 3 of the rules states: that a player has the right to a restart at the discretion of the player who lacks a road guard in the passage through which the road to the central treasure zone passes. The restart is taken on the day this fact is discovered. Given the circumstance that (according to the saves) player Jelen117 discovered the fact of the absence of the road guard on his turn 112, he had the right to take a restart on turn 112 by informing me of this, but he did not do so, despite the fact that I asked him at least twice "do you wish to take a restart?" Nothing prevented him from writing "restart" to me, and then sorting it out with me and, with the help of the referee, finding out whether it was a restart on turn 111 or 112, technical or discretionary.
I draw the attention of the Appeals Commission to the fact that this tournament is played with a shortened timer, and very little time is allocated for all game moments, including taking a restart. Therefore, the player is initially in a situation where decisions must be made quickly and thoughtfully. Which, in my opinion, player Jelen117 did when he wrote to me that he did not want to take a restart. Although there is always the opportunity to attack at the end of the turn, reset the timer in combat, but get a clear decision on his issue. The subsequent intervention of the referee deprived me of the opportunity to play a winning game: on turn 111, I already had 155+80 (from Pandora's box) = 235 Troglodytes, in addition (as the map reveal showed) near the castle, 50-99 Obsidian Gargoyles guarding a sword +6, a box with another 60 Troglodytes and a Griffin Conservatory with 3 Angels, along the road there was another Griffin Conservatory with 3 Angels and another single Griffin Conservatory, not to mention the Dragon Fly Hives, which were taken with Angels without losses of Troglodytes. Having a stack of 300+ Troglodytes and 6-7 Angels by turn 121, I could safely go to the center. Meanwhile, the opponent has only two Dragon Fly Hives with 6 Wyverns each on his respawn. And the miner in this game would level up like a god — the third skill came as Earth, then Wisdom, Defense, Logistics, Pathfinding.
I am ready to attach all necessary logs, ICQ correspondence, and a video recording of my game; I think that player Jelen117, who constantly streams, also has a recording of the game.
Additionally, I inform you that at that time I submitted to the referee's decision and agreed to a restart on turn 111, after which we continued playing, but we have not yet finished the game. I also realize that I am not as strong a player as Jelen117, and my chances of winning the overall BO3 series are very low; I rate my level of play as slightly worse than SirDavos or sonic111, although I have beaten these players.
But, despite this, based on the foregoing, I ask the Appeals Commission to consider my complaint and make a decision to award player Jelen117 a technical loss in this game, accordingly we should not continue the game after the restart unjustifiably assigned by the referee's decision, but should start a new third game with new bidding for the castles.
Sincerely, Ivan (kamukag3e)
艰难获胜 herolwy
In reply to kamukag3e
User Avatar
#1667
Auto-translated
Well, if we follow the rules to the letter...
Benis_xDD
If it is impossible to resolve a controversial issue on their own, the judges may request assistance from the Arbitration Committee.
... then the appeal to the Arbitration Committee should come from the judge, not from the player...
In reply to Wicc
User Avatar
#1668
Auto-translated
Wicc
Well, if we follow the rules literally...
...then the appeal to the Arbitration Committee should come from the judge, not from the player...
Unfortunately, no matter how hard we tried to explain this to the players, they don't seem to understand...
#1669
Auto-translated
Pit for LM
Appellate Commission (AC)

Regulations:
  • Any person registered on HeroesWorld has the right to appeal to the AC regarding any issue they have concerning the "Heroes 3 - ONLINE" section.
That's strange, as the first page states something different. And after reading the section, I see that all players do exactly that – they independently write requests to the AC.
艰难获胜 herolwy
In reply to kamukag3e
User Avatar
#1670
Auto-translated
kamukag3e
That's strange, as the first page states something different. And after reading the section, I see that all players do this – they independently submit requests to the Arbitration Committee (AK).
They can appeal, but the AK's decision only has legal force in official tournaments or in tournaments where this is explicitly stated. In author-created tournaments, the AK can only remove a game from the ranking based on its decision. And maybe award the "Champion of Cheating" title.
In reply to Dirty_Player
User Avatar
#1671
Auto-translated
It seems I've grasped the essence of the claim. In my opinion, the key phrase here is:
At that moment, neither Jelen117 nor I knew the exact interpretation of the rules.
because it significantly diminishes the weight of the argument.
At the same time, I asked Jelen several times in the chat if he wanted to take a restart, and each time I received a negative answer.
because it's unclear whether you were talking about the same thing or something different. Perhaps Jelen117 meant that he didn't want to take a subjective restart but wanted to request a technical restart. At the very least, his subsequent actions (leaving the game and immediately contacting the judge) suggest this.

However, it's still necessary to hear the opinions of the opponent and the judge.
In reply to Wicc
#1672
Auto-translated
Wicc
They can appeal, but the decision of the Arbitration Committee (AK) only has legal force in official tournaments or in tournaments where this is stated explicitly. In author-created tournaments, the AK can at most remove the game from the rating.
And is Blitz-Jebus-3 an author-created tournament? And what's the point of appealing through a judge if I'm trying to challenge his decision? I informed the judge in advance and apologized if I am wrong in this situation.
艰难获胜 herolwy
In reply to kamukag3e
User Avatar
#1673
Auto-translated
kamukag3e
Appeal to the Appeals Committee regarding the second game of the BO3 series in the Blitz-Jebus Cross - 3 (Sod) tournament.
I will describe the disputed situation that arose in the game with player Jelen117:
1. Game: Jelen117 for Conflux, color red; kamukag3e for Dungeon, color blue.
2. On his turn 112, player Jelen117 writes to me in the game chat that he has no guard (ГО) on the road to the central treasure zone, and asks me if this is a technical restart. I answered that, in my opinion, it is not, but he can take a regular restart. At that time, neither Jelen117 nor I knew the exact interpretation of the rules, otherwise why would we need to discuss it in the chat. Therefore, Jelen117 said he would ask more experienced players about this situation. Meanwhile, I asked Jelen several times in the chat if he wanted to take a restart, and each time received a negative answer. (A video recording of the game is available from player NikoStar; if necessary, I can provide it; the correspondence in the game chat is visible on the recording).
3. Ultimately, Jelen117 skipped his turn 112 and I fully played my turn 112. Then followed a message from the tournament judge Ihromant asking to send the game save to check if there was a tech restart. At the same time, player Jelen117 left the game (either on my turn 112 or his turn 113 - can be seen in the video recording), without writing anything to me before leaving.
4. I immediately sent the save and password to the judge. After reviewing the saves, the judge determined it was a restart without immediately specifying which type of restart. After a brief correspondence in ICQ, the judge showed me a screenshot of the opponent's map. After that, I clarified that there is guard present, just not on the central road. The judge then sent me the rule clause, which stated that this is a restart at the player's discretion, and that he wishes to take a restart on turn 111. At that time, I did not argue with the judge, as I needed time to process the situation.
5. In my opinion, the judge made an incorrect decision regarding the game, as he did not investigate all the circumstances of the situation described above, namely section III, paragraph 3 of the rules states: a player has the right to a restart at the player's discretion if the player lacks a guard (ГО) in the passage through which the road to the central treasure zone passes. In this case, the restart is taken on the day this fact is discovered. Given the fact that (judging by the saves) player Jelen117 discovered the lack of a guard on his turn 112, he had the right to take a restart on turn 112, informing me of this, but did not do so, despite me asking him at least twice "do you want to take a restart"? Nothing prevented him from writing "restart" to me, and then sorting it out with me and with the judge's help clarifying whether it was a restart on turn 111 or 112, technical or at player's discretion.
I draw the attention of the AC (Appeals Committee) that this tournament is played with a shortened timer and very little time is allocated for all game moments, including taking a restart, so the player is initially in a situation where decisions must be made quickly and carefully. Which, in my opinion, player Jelen117 did by writing to me that he did not want to take a restart. Although there is always the opportunity to attack at the end of the turn, reset the timer in battle, but get a definitive answer to your question. The further intervention of the judge deprived me of the opportunity to play a winning game: on turn 111 I already had 155+80 (from Pandora's Box)=235 Troglodytes, in addition (as revealed by map exploration) near the castle, 50-99 Obsidian Gargoyles guarded a +6 Sword, another box with 60 Troglodytes, and a Griffin Conservatory with 3 Angels, along the road there was another Griffin Conservatory with 3 Angels and another single Griffin Conservatory, not to mention the Dragon Fly Hives, which were taken with Angels without losing Troglodytes. Having a stack of 300+ Troglodytes and 6-7 Angels by turn 121, I could confidently move into the center. Meanwhile, the opponent had only two Dragon Fly Hives with 6 Wyverns each at his respawn. And the Tavern hero in this game would have leveled up like a god; Earth magic came as the third skill, followed by Wisdom, Armorer, Logistics, Pathfinding.
I am ready to attach all necessary logs, ICQ correspondence, a video recording of my game; I think player Jelen117, who constantly streams, also has a recording of the game.
Additionally, I inform that at that time I submitted to the judge's decision and agreed to the restart on turn 111, after which we continued playing, but we have not finished the game yet. I also realize that I am not as strong a player as Jelen117 and my chances of winning the overall BO3 series are very low; I rate my skill level as slightly worse than SirDavos or sonic111, although I have won against these players.
But, despite this, based on the above, I ask the Appeals Committee to consider my complaint and make a decision to award player Jelen117 a technical loss in this game; accordingly, we should not continue the game after the unjustifiably assigned restart by the judge's decision, but should start a new third game with new bidding for castles.
Sincerely, Ivan (kamukag3e)
Let me comment. Jelen117 contacted me to look at the save to see if there was a reason for a restart, and what kind. I was watching his stream and it was clearly visible that the road to the center was not guarded by a Griffin Conservatory. But the road went to the side and there was no way to see if there was a Griffin Conservatory on the other road. Accordingly, the players sent me the saves, I looked and saw what is in the screenshot I am adding.
As I saw it, the situation in the game quite fits the rule clause
- Restarts at the player's discretion,
a) the player lacks a Griffin Conservatory in the passage through which the road to the central treasure zone goes;
Which I told Jelen117 and also conveyed to Ivan in ICQ. He started asking me for Jelen's password to personally verify. Here I admit I made a mistake, not towards Ivan, but towards Jelen117, for which he could well have complained about me. I understood that I could not give him Jelen117's password, but I made a mistake. I took a screenshot and sent it to him. And then I realized I had revealed the game. Because of that, Jelen was already forced to take a restart at his discretion. Well, I will keep in mind for the future that I must not give in to persistent requests from players; thank you for the lesson.
Now regarding Ivan's further comments. Jelen117 did everything by the rules, took a restart at his discretion following the rules, and they started a new game. The player's claims seem unfounded, like "because of his restart, my respawn with chocolate disappeared."
Attachments 1
1 file attached • Total size: 525.2 KB
Мой любимьій размер - тройка. Будь то конса, утопа или сиськи
ICQ:5676388
In reply to kamukag3e
User Avatar
#1674
Auto-translated
kamukag3e
Is Blitz Jebus Cross-3 an author's tournament?
Yes. The rules of official tournaments usually state something like:
Sanin
2. The tournament is official and regular; it is held according to the Rules for Organizing, Conducting, and Participating in HOMM3 Online Tournaments.
(this is from OzV-6)
or
Dirty_Player
1. The tournament is conducted according to the Rules for Organizing, Conducting, and Participating in Tournaments.
2. Players listed in the Blacklist and Penalty Bench are not allowed to participate in the tournament.
(this is from FB-11)

Hmm... but further on there is a similar phrase:
Dirty_Player
If it is impossible to resolve a controversial issue independently, the judges will seek help from the AK.
Suspicious actions, Konstantin :D

Oh, I found some compromising information:
Dirty_Player
The host has the right, if necessary, to make any changes to the regulations and rules during the tournament.
LuckyF
Please register me for the tournament.
I knew Lucky was a two-faced scoundrel :D
kamukag3e
And what's the point of contacting the judge if I am trying to appeal his decision? I informed the judge beforehand and asked him to forgive me if I am wrong about this situation.
Well, you need to know how to properly file an appeal ;)
In reply to Ihromant
#1675
Auto-translated
Ihromant
Let me comment. Jelen117 contacted me to check his save and see if there was a reason for a restart, and what it was. I was watching his stream, and it was clear that the road to the center was not guarded by a Guardian. However, the road led to the side, and there was no way to check if there was a Guardian on another road. Therefore, the players sent me the save, I looked at it, and saw what is in the screenshot that I am adding.
As I saw, the situation in the game fits the rule:

That's what I told Jelen117 and also told Ivan in ICQ. He then started asking me for Jelen's password so that he could personally check. Here, I admit that I made a mistake, but not in relation to Ivan, but in relation to Jelen117, for which he could have complained about me. I understood that I could not give him Jelen117's password, but I made a mistake. I took a screenshot and sent it to him. And then I realized that I had revealed the game. Because of this, Jelen was forced to take a restart at his own request. Well, in the future, I will keep in mind that I should not give in to persistent requests from players, thank you for the lesson.
Now, regarding Ivan's further comments. Jelen117 did everything according to the rules, took a restart at his own request, following the rules, and they started a new game. The player's claims seem unfounded, such as "because of his restart, I lost the respawn with chocolate."
I cannot agree with the judge, as I have already written that the player has the right to take a restart on the day the issue is discovered, which Jelen117 did not do. He discovered the road without a Guardian on the second turn, but he continued and missed it. At the same time, he refused to take a restart until the very end. Regarding the password, Jelen told me immediately after the judge made the decision about the restart. So, the fact that the judge revealed the map does not affect the result in any way. The decision on the restart was made by the judge, and it is this decision that I am appealing. The fact that, as a way out of the situation, we cannot continue the game with the revealed map and the communicated password, and Jelen was not going to continue it when he left the game after losing the ability to take restarts at the player's request.
艰难获胜 herolwy
In reply to kamukag3e
User Avatar
#1676
Auto-translated
kamukag3e
a player has the right to take a rest on the day of discovery, if they wish.
Well, 112 isn't the day of discovery, but the day suspicions arose:
Ihromant
it was clearly visible that the road to the center wasn't guarded by a Guard of Order. But the road went to the side, and there was no way to check if there was a Guard of Order on the other road.
So, formally, Jelen117 could have played for another week and taken the technical rest only after he had fully explored the road. This would not have been very fair, but it wouldn't have formally violated the rules.
In reply to Wicc
#1677
Auto-translated
Wicc
Oh, what compromising information you found:
I knew all along that Lucky was a two-faced scoundrel :D
What is this? Are you completely losing it? Although, I guess it's been obvious for a while now.
discord: LuckyF#3482
icq: 681350680
In reply to kamukag3e
User Avatar
#1679
Auto-translated
Ideally, such a generation must be restarted. Because you can simply sit on the respawn and win the game when your opponent comes to you, thinking that you broke through the ГО. But according to current rules, this is an optional restart.

Since you have opened the saves, continuing the game is impossible; in any case, it will have to be played over. A technical defeat cannot be awarded either. So just play it again and don't torture yourselves.

Added after 1 minute
Wicc
hmm ... though the next phrase there is the same:
suspicious movements, Konstantin :D
I don't quite understand, are there some contradictions? :confused: Does something need to be fixed? :confused:
In reply to Wicc
#1680
Auto-translated
Wicc
Well, 112 isn't the day of discovery, but the day suspicions arose:
In other words, Jelen117 could have continued playing for another week and only requested a tech reset after scouting the path to the end. This wouldn't be very sportsmanlike, but it wouldn't formally violate the rules.
This is how our politicians talk. The rules state specifically - on the day the absence of a GO (Guard Outpost) on the road to the central treasury is discovered! What suspicions can there be if he sees it with his own eyes and wrote to me in the chat that he doesn't have a GO on the central road. Why run along the road to the end, what's the point?
艰难获胜 herolwy