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Posts from UNIT - Creature Balance + Visual Changes

Mods: Tribes of the East, Hammers of Fate and Vanilla
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Offline Frozensoull
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#348
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The voting is complete. The votes were distributed as follows:



Let's welcome the winners :)



Happy New Year to everyone!!! :)
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Offline roman_yo_ye_ya
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#349
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When will the next version of the mod be ready?
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Offline Frozensoull
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#350
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roman_yo_ye_ya
When will the next version of the mod be ready?

Currently, the main part of the changes is already complete, but there are still many small details that require attention.
----------------------------------------
UPD:

Work on version 2.4 is complete. The release date for the final version 2.4 is February 7th.
Модификации для Heroes V 3.1:

[Модификация]Phoenix Vision - Комплексное модифицирование визуального аспекта игры.
[Модификация]UNIT-Баланс существ + визуальные изменения.
[Модификация]NewTransformUndead-Таблица поднятия нежити.
[Модификация]VisualFix-Устрание визуальных багов.

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Offline atlant108
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#353
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Frozensoull, perhaps after the updated version is released, it would be worth doing a more extensive and detailed stream about the UNIT mod. I think that no one can tell better and in more detail about their mod than the creator of the mod himself.
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Offline Dyrman
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#359
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Frozensoull, Remix, please resolve this issue in private messages! The forum is not the place to settle personal disputes.

I would like to add:
The mod author made the mod the way he wanted.
The review author made the review the way he wanted.

One will have to promote the mod, and the other will have to promote their channel. Without diplomacy, this will be difficult.

I will delete the next message containing unproductive arguments, and then I will issue warnings! Argue without negative emotions and personal attacks!
For example: such and such enhancement is too much, or it would be good to do this differently, etc.
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Абсолютная власть , Иду на Вы! , Корона Ургаша , На задворках
Мир надо уничтожить... Чтобы создать свой...
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Offline SRD
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#361
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In my opinion, a review should be conducted by the creator and the streamer together, or they should discuss the mod beforehand (e.g., in a private message) – this would resolve most of the controversial points because they simply wouldn't arise.
... И древний лес, роскошен и печален,
Блистает там воздушностью прогалин.
Но между кедров, полных тишиной,
Расщелина по склону ниспадала.
О, никогда под бледною луной
Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...
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Offline Nargott
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#367
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I've written about archers a long time ago, but to no avail:
The damage of 2-8 with a direct shot can be equated to 8 (i.e., 6-10), as a direct shot gives about +60% damage. This is only for regular shooting.
But on top of that, there's also increased initiative (9 against 8) and some kind of ability. And we also need to consider that melee damage with 6-10 is much more powerful than with 2-8.
In short, 4-9 is much closer to the truth.
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Offline Nargott
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#369
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The formula was quite simple: x1.6 for direct fire. But considering melee combat, it's closer to x1.5. Relying solely on the arrow curve (i.e., assuming the direct fire coefficient is close to 2) is a gross error.

Moreover, it should be assumed that Remix didn't use any formulas at all, but rather relied on general intuition/experience. After all, 6-10 damage for a Tier 2 archer is simply fantastic...
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Offline Frozensoull
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#370
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Nargott
I've been writing about archers for a long time, but to no avail:
The damage of 2-8 with a direct shot can be equated to 8 (i.e., 6-10), since a direct shot gives about +60% damage. This is only for regular shooting.

How often do they approach you for a "shootout"? Especially ranged damage dealers, from whom it is sometimes more painful than from melee units.
Nargott
But on top of that, there's also initiative boosted (9 against 8) and some kind of ability.
Yes, perhaps the initiative buff is excessive under these circumstances.
Nargott
And you also need to consider that melee with 6-10 is much more powerful than with 2-8.

That's a valid argument. But here, too, you can take into account the fact that if they reach the stack, it's already just scraps, not a stack, and the counterattack will be slightly higher than that of an alt, but still negligible. After all, in melee combat, both sides hit with a penalty.
Модификации для Heroes V 3.1:

[Модификация]Phoenix Vision - Комплексное модифицирование визуального аспекта игры.
[Модификация]UNIT-Баланс существ + визуальные изменения.
[Модификация]NewTransformUndead-Таблица поднятия нежити.
[Модификация]VisualFix-Устрание визуальных багов.

Карты для Heroes V 3.1:

[Карта][1x1]The Last Stand - Дуэльная карта финальных битв

Группа VK:
https://vk.com/club176978884
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Offline Nargott
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#371
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In any matchup where a Human plays defensively due to having stronger ranged units, they will be directly targeted if their magic cannot counter the enemy's ranged units. Melee combat should not be underestimated, as 6-10 damage, even halved, is 3-5, which is almost as much as melee-focused units. And this is higher than that of armored units.

Neutral creatures will constantly target them directly. When playing defensively, they can be held back with single units for quite a while, and the distance will be directly in front, with ranged attacks only effective for the first 1-2 shots.
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Offline Nargott
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#373
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What specific players are you referring to?

Even if you put these archers against each other in duels, say 10 versus 10.
The first volley is fired by the Imbarians, dealing 6-10 damage, halved. That's an average of minus 4.
Then, 6 of them respond with 5 shots from direct bows. That's an average of minus 3.
This leaves 7 Imbarians against 6 direct bow users, and that's just after the first volley.
Moreover, in this direct confrontation between archers, the direct bow dealt exactly double damage, meaning the direct bow users should have won by a large margin.

By the way, I overlooked the fact that Remix also provided his own mathematical calculations and examples, so it wasn't just intuition.

Let me rephrase the question: do you think that a direct shot and a double shot are almost the same thing?
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Offline Frozensoull
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#374
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Nargott
In any matchup where a Human player plays defensively due to having stronger archers, they will be directly attacked if the opponent cannot counter them with magic. Don't underestimate melee combat; even 6-10 divided in half is 3-5, which is almost as much as melee units. And this is higher than that of armored units.

Yes, but the point is that a stack of armored units or melee units is designed for close combat and can withstand attacks relatively well. However, after an attack by archers in close combat, only 3 crippled units remain, posing virtually no threat.
Nargott
Neutral creatures will constantly launch direct attacks. When playing defensively, you can hold them back with single units for quite some time, while maintaining a direct distance, and ranged attacks will only work for the first 1-2 shots.

Playing against neutral creatures also has its nuances. In many ways, it is much simpler than playing against other players. Using stacks of single units is a tactic, and tactics always take into account the strengths and weaknesses of the creatures.

Just imagine damage of 4-9 for an upgraded unit, as suggested earlier. In this case, under absolutely identical conditions, as in post 361, we have a possible damage output of 21-47 for the upgraded unit versus 21-84 for the alternate unit. What's the point then in taking an upgraded unit with twice the damage? Especially when breaking through defenses. Even when playing against another player, should I take an upgraded unit and wait for the opponent to send units to their doom? Or should I take an alternate upgraded unit and start tearing them apart at the very beginning?
Модификации для Heroes V 3.1:

[Модификация]Phoenix Vision - Комплексное модифицирование визуального аспекта игры.
[Модификация]UNIT-Баланс существ + визуальные изменения.
[Модификация]NewTransformUndead-Таблица поднятия нежити.
[Модификация]VisualFix-Устрание визуальных багов.

Карты для Heroes V 3.1:

[Карта][1x1]The Last Stand - Дуэльная карта финальных битв

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Offline Nargott
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#375
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For convenience, let's take 10 archers. Damage of 4-9 is:
20-45 at long range, 40-90 at medium range, and 20-45 in melee.
Damage of 2-8 direct shot is:
20-80 at long range, 20-80 at medium range, and 10-40 in melee.

At the same time, the initiative of the first ones is 12.5% higher (9 versus 8), which can be equated to +15-20% damage in the case of archers. Let's recalculate taking into account the initiative of +20% (we will take the upper estimate due to the uncounted ability of volley fire).

We get:
1) 39 = 24-54 long range, 78 = 48-108 medium range, 39 = 24-54 melee
2) 50 = 20-80 long range, 50 = 20-80 medium range, 25 = 10-40 melee

I don't see any overwhelming superiority of the second ones...

Yes, by the way, what would the option with Imbarians of 6-10 look like (with a correction for initiative +20% to damage):
3) 48 = 36-60 long range, 96 = 72-120 medium range, 48 = 36-60 melee

There is almost no superiority of direct-shot archers even at long range, due to the initiative.
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Offline Frozensoull
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#376
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Nargott
What specific players are you referring to?

“Practice” isn’t quite the right word; it would be more accurate to say that it was “established through experience.”
Nargott
Yes, put these archers against each other in duels, say 10 versus 10.
The Imbarians make the first volley, dealing 6-10 damage, halved. That’s an average of -4.
Then 6 of them respond with 5 shots from a longbow. That’s an average of -3.
That leaves 7 Imbarians against 6 longbowmen, and that’s just after the first volley. Moreover, in this direct confrontation of archers against archers, the longbow dealt exactly double damage, i.e., the longbowmen should have won by a large margin.

Regarding the initiative of 9, I said earlier that perhaps it was an excessive buff. If we return the initiative value to 8 (i.e., make it equal to the value of the upgraded and alternate versions), then with a high probability, the creature that shoots first will win the duel. Also, I’m not entirely sure about the correctness of such a comparison. You could just as easily put upgraded pitfiends against alternate-upgraded pitfiends in a duel; what do you think, who would win? However, both types of creatures have their place and will be effective under certain circumstances.
Nargott
For convenience, let’s take 10 archers. Damage of 4-9 is:
20-45 at long range, 40-90 at medium range, and 20-45 in melee.
Damage of 2-8 for longbowmen is:
20-80 at long range, 20-80 at medium range, and 10-40 in melee.

As a result, we have:
20-45 at long range (almost twice as low a range), 40-90 at medium range (powerful damage, but you still have to survive until then; the stars have to align in the right order), and 20-45 in melee (slightly more than the alternate version, provided that no creature is killed from the stack, which practically never happens).

20-80 at long range (very good damage), 20-80 at medium range (also good damage, but without any additional advantage), and 10-40 in melee (again, provided that no creature is killed from the stack, and there’s not much point in a low-level archer retaliating with a penalty, as is the case with the upgraded version).
Модификации для Heroes V 3.1:

[Модификация]Phoenix Vision - Комплексное модифицирование визуального аспекта игры.
[Модификация]UNIT-Баланс существ + визуальные изменения.
[Модификация]NewTransformUndead-Таблица поднятия нежити.
[Модификация]VisualFix-Устрание визуальных багов.

Карты для Heroes V 3.1:

[Карта][1x1]The Last Stand - Дуэльная карта финальных битв

Группа VK:
https://vk.com/club176978884
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