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Tournament Committee
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Offline KobRa_RR
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#7622
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Iamsamstan
Vik is probably conducting an experiment; he's the organizer and decides on the conditions. If something doesn't suit someone, they can choose not to register, or register, get upset, and then complain that the timer is too short. It's a fun tournament anyway. And whether it's a "fast" tournament or some other kind, the name doesn't really affect the content.

This tournament isn't just for fun, because everything is set to the default settings for the ranked ladder. That's another argument, so to speak...

Added 2 minutes later
Vik's argument is that he "saw that Hell and Lizard can handle that timer. So, everything is supposedly okay, and others should follow suit."


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In reply to Wicc
Offline LuckyF
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#7623
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Wicc
I will not change the tournament name, because "rapid" in HotA terminology means 12+6+1. If I ever decide to run a mirror tournament with such a timer, the name will definitely include "rapid".
:smile52:
And who introduced this HotA terminology? Was it a non-playing Wicc, or Hell and Lizard, who are the only ones playing their Jebus Cross with such a timer?
discord: LuckyF#3482
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Offline iDD
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#7624
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LuckyF
:smile52:
And who introduced such HotA terminology? Is it the non-playing Vic or the only ones playing their Jebus Cross on a similar timer, Hell with Lizard?
In the new season of "Game of Thrones" it will happen. Someone will change their avatar picture :D
Коротко о себе: спесивый сноб
Чуть длиннее: Фонд Дендроидов
-------------------------------------------------------------
На ощупь пьют эльфийские стрелки!
Нам это идеально подходит (c)
Это вам не шутки - нажрался Дуст в маршрутке! (с)
Пишите на udd@otso.city
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Offline Grando
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#7625
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Wick, a little higher up (here), I asked again about which of your arguments you were referring to? The post move might have caused it to go unnoticed. In addition, I want to clarify the concept of “political pressure.” A synonym for political pressure is coercive pressure. Its meaning in its simplest form is that side A, having MILITARY superiority, puts pressure on side B, forcing this side B against its will/worldview/desire to take certain actions needed by side A. If you look closely, you can easily see that there is no talk of political pressure here because, ideally, you are in the role of side B, but military superiority is also on your side. Here, there is a discussion and an attempt to persuade you to exchange arguments, and ideally, make a decision based on common sense. With some stretch, one could consider what you are doing – pushing for a faster timer and forcibly moving the discussion to the Forum – as political pressure. But so far, I am inclined to believe that both things you do out of sincerely mistaken "good intentions" (which, let me remind you, don't always lead in the right direction). Also, I would like to remind you of this post of yours. It is still unclear to me how you managed to ignore the first point from it.
https://www.twitch.tv/grando__
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Offline Wicc
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#7626
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Coercive pressure is more of a type of administrative pressure. And your political pressure is realized in the form of media pressure – attracting the attention of the general public to the issue in the hope of influencing it through public opinion. I myself am inclined to such methods, I understand how they work, and I know that they often lead to a lot of pointless arguments without any practical result. Therefore, on issues on which I have a formed opinion, I prefer not to engage in unnecessary discussions. Although I provide detailed answers to everyone who wants them, I only start getting angry and applying administrative pressure if the arguments start to be repeated for the Nth time.
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Offline Wicc
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#7627
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Regarding the optimal duration - in the media industry, there is an unwritten rule that a full-length entertainment show should last 2-3 hours. Movies and sports matches fall within this range. Apparently, it is believed that during this time, viewers have time to "get their fill," but not become "oversaturated."

In esports, individual games are shorter, but this is compensated by their serial nature - matches usually go bo3 or bo5, which yields the same overall duration.

In Heroes, Blitz Jebus has come close to these numbers, which pleases me greatly. The situation is worse for other formats, perhaps even irreparable, but that is no reason to stop experimenting.

I also pay great attention to the concept of action density - a game may be a bit long, but if it holds the viewer's attention, that is a good thing.
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In reply to Wicc
Offline Medium_HP
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#7628
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Wicc
Regarding the optimal duration, there's an unwritten rule in the media industry that a full-length entertainment show should last 2-3 hours. This range includes movies and sports matches.
Road cycling races last 5+ hours, the most famous ones have been held for over 100 years, and they attract a TV audience comparable to the World Cup final. At the same time, no one thinks of forcing the unforceable into a media standard; everyone understands that it's just a type of sport. And Heroes is simply that kind of game.
Награда: Лучшему игроку сезона Осень 2009 за замок Конфлюкс
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Offline KobRa_RR
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#7629
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I’ve been saying for a long time that Heroes isn’t esports in its current form, and if it ever becomes esports, I’m afraid all the strategy will be lost, and all that will remain is mindless action, like in Polish Arenas or, for example, Jeb’s L with weak monsters.


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Offline Marcus Aurelius
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#7630
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KobRa_RR
Jebus L with weak monsters

To prevent Jebus L with weak monsters from being a "mindless action game," you need to play it at 200%.

Actually, I have a question for the community: why haven't people switched to 200% yet? There are so many advantages. It really makes you think, instead of just rushing around with horses, as most people do. You can divide the timer into two parts: the first timer is active during simultaneous turns and resets when it ends, and then the second timer comes into effect. This way, we can divide the game into two parts: the first is a calm, measured consideration of moves at the beginning and quality gameplay (here, 200% is definitely desirable), and the second is action. Both players and viewers will be satisfied. The first timer can be set longer (which isn't critical due to the simultaneous turn), and the second can be shorter, so the density of action is high.
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Offline Grando
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#7632
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A. Well, since ATG has signed up for the tournament, I no longer have much motivation to continue the discussion. B. At least one person from those I consider to be absolute top players has appeared among the participants (there are three of them - ATG, Stinger, and FTS; the rest of the top players according to the ranking, either I haven't seen them play (Cobra), or I have (Lizard) :D). Regarding my main argument, Vicc has expressed himself quite clearly - he is ready to sacrifice the atmosphere of the streams and communication with viewers for the sake of the action from Dota 2, which he is trying to incorporate into Heroes. As for the media/political pressure, Vicc, you are completely wrong. These were assumptions based on - I judge by myself. Here, you were dealing with a completely (at least at the moment) apolitical person; the only thing that interested me was to figure out what you think and what you are thinking about by considering the situation from different angles and highlighting the key points. It took a while to believe that you really want to do what is written in the previous paragraph, but it finally happened. As for the technical side of the timer, I will have to draw conclusions after the tournament, once again inquiring about the opinion of the strongest players.
https://www.twitch.tv/grando__
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Offline Marcus Aurelius
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#7633
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By the way, regarding the 200%, you don't really need a long timer there, meaning the timer can be the same whether it's simultaneous turns or after, the main thing is that it resets when the simultaneous turns are completed (so you don't have to rush in the first stage). Or you could even make a small timer at the beginning, and then a larger one, for example, 8+4+1 for simultaneous turns and 16+8+1 for the continuation.
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Offline MikeM
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#7634
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Al Feyn
A. Well, since ATG has registered for the tournament, I no longer have much motivation to continue the discussion.
At least one person from those I consider to be absolute top players has appeared among the participants (there are three of them - ATG, Stinger, and FTS; the rest of the top players according to the ranking, I either haven't seen play (Cobra), or I have (Lizard) :D).

Regarding my main argument, Vicc expressed himself quite clearly - he is ready to sacrifice the atmosphere of the streams and communication with viewers for the sake of the action from Dota 2, which he is trying to incorporate into Heroes.
Regarding media/political pressure, Vicc, you are completely wrong. These were assumptions based on the principle of "I judge by myself." Here, you were dealing with a completely (at least at the moment) apolitical person; the only thing that interested me was to understand what you think and what you are thinking about by considering the situation from different angles and highlighting the key points. It took a while to believe that you really want to do what is written in the previous paragraph. But finally, it worked.

As for the technical side of the timer, I will have to draw conclusions after the tournament, once again inquiring about the opinion of the strongest players.
Organize your own tournament with a long timer and… well, you know. It's a voluntary thing; those who don't want to participate don't have to. Why stir up controversy? :smile02:
ICQ 675102035


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In reply to MikeM
Offline Grando
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#7635
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MikeM
We organized our own tournament with a long timer and… well, let’s just say it had some… interesting elements. It’s voluntary, those who don’t want to participate, don’t. Why all the demagoguery? :smile02:
Thanks for the advice regarding the tournament, captain. But this decision was already made without you. And it was even mentioned on the forum.
And I don’t agree with the statement about demagoguery at all. The discussion had a goal, and it was achieved. If it remained unclear to you, that’s only relevant to you.
In fact, we managed to achieve even more than we wanted at the beginning.
Not only did we sort out the arguments of both sides, but we also managed to adjust the regulations (thanks to the fact that Helllight already had some credit).
https://www.twitch.tv/grando__
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Offline Marcus Aurelius
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#7636
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And just to reiterate, I'll remind you about my idea for a turn acceptance window in the bottom right corner :) An additional timer for thinking wouldn't hurt...
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Offline Wicc
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#7637
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The streamer's interaction with viewers is a necessary measure, caused by the fact that nothing happens on the screen for a long time, and there is a need to somehow maintain the audience's attention. To consider this interaction as one of the goals of the game... I don't think so... I believe the opposite - if a streamer has time to interact with viewers, then it is a flaw in the game. Ideally, the player should be busy all the time, and even during the opponent's turn, if possible. For example, options are being considered for functionality that would allow, during the opponent's turn, to build chains, calculate moves and hero trajectories, study the readings of land/air scouting, so that all of this does not have to be done during one's own turn under a ticking timer.
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