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In reply to KobRa_RR
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KobRa_RR
Heroes will never become esports.

Come to the glorious city of Pinsk (don't confuse it with Minsk) and tell the local guys that motorcycle polo isn't a sport. The team from Pinsk is a multiple-time European champion in this "non-sport." They have traditions, and it's developing, and so on. At the same time, the amount of money circulating there is comparable to our "non-esport."
http://ru.twitch.tv/lizard_wt
In reply to KobRa_RR
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Many people apparently don't know how to calculate, or they deliberately don't want to:
1) Increasing the starting time from 16 minutes to 21 minutes increases the game time by 10 minutes;
2) Increasing the turn time from 8 to 8:30 increases the game time by approximately 15 minutes per player, calculated over a 1-month period (2-1-1), i.e., no more than 30 minutes for two players in total for the entire game;
3) Increasing the battle timer has the biggest impact on increasing the game time, as many "not-so-fast" players sometimes use up the maximum time, hence the long turns. For example, let's take an increase of 15 seconds per battle to the standard timer, with 4-5 battles per turn (and not all battles use these additional 15 seconds); calculated over 1 month, this is approximately 5 * 30 * 15 = 2250 seconds = 37.5 minutes.
So, where are your boasted 2+ hour delays?
The illusion of a long turn arises precisely during long battles, i.e., not battles that last 10-20 seconds, but those that last 40-60 seconds. This aspect has the greatest impact on the duration of turns/matches.
ICQ: 680096721 :smile28:
In reply to KobRa_RR
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Wyndoc has surprisingly well-defined the parameters. From this, it follows that the 25-9-1 timer, compared to 16-8-1, will increase the game duration by approximately an hour or an hour and a half (3-4 game weeks, respectively).
And this additional time is what we are currently discussing, and it is intended specifically for resolving strategic tasks – setting priorities and executing them on the map, which is what h3dm1 requires with constant effort from the first to the last game day.
https://www.twitch.tv/grando__
In reply to Wicc
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Wicc

Yes, it's harder to play perfectly on a mirrored map with the same timer compared to, say, Jebel or HLU. But the point isn't to play perfectly, but to play better than your opponent, taking into account all factors, including the timer.

So, let's not bring up this issue again and again. There are as many opinions as there are people; we need to settle on something. These extra 30 seconds per turn won't fundamentally change anything.
In chess, the goal isn't to play perfectly either, because that's practically impossible; it's about playing better than your opponent. However, all the most prestigious chess tournaments are still held in the classical format, not blitz or even rapid chess.
Here, you're holding a tournament on the most complex map in terms of the number of actions, and yet you're still lumping it together with a general timer. In my opinion, this is complete nonsense. The shorter the timer, the more pronounced the advantage will be for the favorite playstyle of some players – rushing in a straight line... and if there are some key rewards there, it will be much harder to compete with that in a time crunch from the start when playing in multiple directions. It's almost funny to read about "the beauty of the numbers on the buttons when we introduce standard timers."
And someone already posted the actual average time increase for games with different timers, rather than fantasies about how the game should last 2-3 hours instead of 10...
discord: LuckyF#3482
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In reply to KobRa_RR
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KobRa_RR
Heroes will never become esports or a widely popular sport! Accept it! Therefore, who should it be for? For me, Heroes is a pleasure, not a job!
Tyoma, don't get hung up on words. In my writing, "should" means how it "should" be, in my personal opinion, and not who it should be for.
Where is the line between pleasure and work? Where is the necessary line between an exhausting super-blitz and a long, tedious grind?
Wyndoc
The question is, where are your much-touted 2x or more hour-long delays?
The illusion of a long turn arises precisely during long battles, i.e., not battles of 10-20 seconds, but of 40-60 seconds. This aspect has the greatest impact on the duration of turns/games.
Don't you think that the less time per turn, the fewer such battles you will have time to conduct? :smile01: Or you will have to act faster.
LuckyF
In chess, the point is not to play perfectly, as this is generally impossible, but to play better than the opponent. However, all the most prestigious chess tournaments are still held in classical format, not blitz or even rapid chess.
In chess, by the way, blitz and rapid tournaments are becoming more popular every year, because they are more spectacular, and also very profitable for players, because you can play a tournament in 2 days instead of 10 and receive prize money. Of course, the most prestigious championships will always be in classical format, BUT the time for a match in classical chess has already been reduced to 1.5 hours per game (plus an additional 30 seconds per move), and why not 2 or 3? After all, there should be a limiting time factor.

Just like in Heroes. If both participants have accumulated 30-60 minutes of time by the end of the game, then the control should probably be reduced somehow. And if one has an hour of time left at the end of the game, and the other is in time trouble (as is usually the case with me :smile09: ), and the latter usually loses in time trouble - then who is to blame?
In reply to LuckyF
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LuckyF
In chess, the goal isn't to play perfectly, as that's fundamentally impossible, but to play better than your opponent. However, all the most prestigious chess tournaments are still held in the classic format, not blitz or even rapid chess.
Since we've brought up chess:
Wikipedia
After the introduction of time control, the limit has been constantly reduced:
initially, in the late 19th century, it was 2 hours for every 20 moves;
in the first half of the 20th century, they often played with a control of 2 hours for the first 30 moves and 1 hour for every 15 moves thereafter;
by the second half of the 20th century, the limit was reduced to 2.5 hours for the first 40 moves and 1 hour for every 16 moves thereafter;

Now, the standard limit for classic chess is 2 hours for 40 moves, then 1 hour for the next 20 moves, and another 30 minutes until the end of the game, or 2 hours for 40 moves, followed immediately by 30 minutes to 1 hour until the end of the game.
The reasons for each subsequent reduction of the "classic timer" were always the same: reducing the game time, increasing the entertainment value, etc. This is quite logical, as chess lacks a certain level of entertainment.

In my opinion, 16+8+1 is the modern classic timer, and most tournaments will be held with this time control.

Longer time controls are also classic, but outdated.
It's funny to read about "the beauty of the numbers on the buttons when we introduce standard timers."
For me, this is a significant argument. At the same time, it protects the classic timer from further reduction.

Regarding entertainment value, I've been watching Hell and Lizard's morning rapid games on Jeb with a control of 12+6+1 for the past couple of weeks. I've come to the conclusion that this time control provides the optimal density of action for Jeb. In blitz games, players are often forced to abandon interesting ideas that don't fit within the time limit. In classic Jeb, players have time to think ("when a player thinks, the viewer gets bored"), but in rapid Jeb, on the one hand, there is constant action, and on the other hand, the map is cleared quite well (at least in Hell's performance; Lizard rarely streams).

In general, what I've seen on these streams is very similar to my idea of Heroes as an esport.

On a mirror map, the amount of work is slightly more, so I assume that 16+8+1 will provide a similar density of action on a mirror map. Let's test it.
In reply to Wicc
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I'll sign up for the hotu tournament when the timer is 8+4+1 or less, to demonstrate my dominance! If no one is ready after a week, and I don't change my mind, and Dёrti doesn't object, then I'll open a parallel tournament on SoD with a normal timer.


In reply to Wicc
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Is it possible to implement restrictions on the aforementioned heroes, similar to how it was done in War of the Wizards (heroes cannot be leveled up beyond level 5)?
In reply to MinasMorgul
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Not very epic
Question: Can we implement restrictions on the aforementioned heroes, as was done in War of the Wizards (heroes cannot be leveled up beyond level 5)?
Any option that gathers sufficient support will do. I don't have a preference for a specific type of restriction. I hope this is the last tournament on the mirror map with verbal restrictions; in the future, we will use software-based restrictions.

Specifically regarding the proposed option, there is a suspicion that Jeremy-Luna, even at level 5, could cause some trouble...

Also, what should we do with those who still exceed this level (for example, the Prisoners)?
In reply to Wicc
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My question about canceling the guild restructuring remains unanswered. What was the rationale behind the decision? What arguments for and against were considered?
https://www.twitch.tv/grando__
In reply to KobRa_RR
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KobRa_RR
I'll sign up for the hotu tournament when the timer is 8+4+1 or less, to demonstrate DOMINANCE! If no one is ready after a week, and I don't change my mind, and Dёrti doesn't object, then I'll open a parallel tournament on SOD with a normal timer.
Just set it to 40+20+10 right away and call it "slowpokes";) I think a large quorum will gather.
In reply to KobRa_RR
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KobRa_RR
I'll sign up for the hot-seat tournament when the timer is 8+4+1 or less, to demonstrate my dominance! If no one is ready after a week, and I don't change my mind, and Dёrti doesn't object, then I'll open a parallel tournament on SoD with a normal timer.
This is the best post in this thread.
In reply to Grando
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Al Feyn
My question about canceling the guild restructuring remains unanswered.

What was the logic behind the decision? What arguments for and against were considered?
An argument against is that restructuring restructures asymmetrically. Spells in the guild are synchronized, but what they will be restructured into is pure randomness.

However, this point is not crucial for me, so if there are many votes in favor, I will enable restructuring by default.
In reply to Wicc
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Wicc
The argument against is that restructuring doesn't restructure symmetrically. Spells in the guild are synchronized, but what they will restructure into is pure randomness.

Okay. So, I'm asking - why was the decision made to disable restructuring instead of just playing with it enabled?
It's still not ideal, but it serves as a safeguard against the initial randomness when building in different towns. And that (huge!) advantage doesn't just disappear.
https://www.twitch.tv/grando__
In reply to Diabler
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Diabler
just do 40+20+10 right away and call them slowpokes ;) I think a large number of people will join.
I suggest a true blitz timer: 1+1+1.


https://www.twitch.tv/dave_hun

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