Posts from The ninth stage of the John Van Caneghem tournament.

I find it more interesting to look for strategic solutions than to find map bugs. Passing through a wall-teleport with guards without a battle – that's a typical map bug in my opinion. You can probably use it, but I personally am not interested in it...

- It's very difficult to find strategic solutions when the paths to them are limited on the map. Look at the restrictions in the editor: (.
- Regarding the Garrison (consider this a criticism directed at me). There are 2 Garrisons on the map that can be passed through in this way; I only passed through the one that I could pass through with a battle, but it would have taken at least 2 hours of real time (and most likely more). Why bother if there is no restriction? If I had passed through both Garrisons in this way, the result might have been different. I started the tournament late, and by the time this bug came to light, some players had already submitted their results.;)

But I'm not very interested in this kind of game.

Me neither, but I still want to play and I want to win, and if there is no other way to improve my result and there is a high probability that others might use it: confused: ?

The infamous "pulling out tombs" from under monsters (this is an old discussion, I don't want to continue it here, I'm just giving it as an example) is also a bug for me. But not a map bug, but a game bug.
You could say that if the spacebar works the way it works and it gives a certain result on the map, then it's "intended by the developers" and you can and should use it. I have a different point of view on this issue. :)

If the developer intended it, that's one thing; if the map was edited, that's another. And besides, it wasn't necessary to pull out the tombs.:smile39:

P.S. I just want to raise the level of OUR tournaments; please don't take it as criticism.:smile02:
P.S. 2. I'm putting my helmet back on; feel free to criticize...:smile39:

Leshy! You've misunderstood me. :-D
I'm not saying you played incorrectly, cheated, or are a deceiver. If the rules allow it, then it's permissible and even necessary to use it if you aim to win. Otherwise, you won't win (in most cases).
It's just that these kinds of Tournaments aren't interesting to me personally, and that's my own opinion. It might be absurd and incorrect.
Exploiting Necropolis is a bug in the game. Passing through garrisons and solid obstacles is a bug in both the game and the map.
I haven't looked at the map. Most often, there's only one path (for example, through a Warrior or through an Order Mage). But specifically, your method of obtaining Life Magic, so that after taking a level 1 book, you can summon ships, developing the necessary class for artifacts and monsters, choosing heroes and directing their movement, building chains for transferring artifacts (for example, if all heroes on the map only wear gloves, passing them from one to another), developing the shortest "path" to obtaining the desired skill (visiting universities in the correct order, for example), and so on – that's strategy, tactics, and the ability to play offline, as I see it.

I agree with Shnurov. Some XL maps, for example, can be completed very quickly using the teleport feature (e.g., the area is blocked by terrain/a quest tower, but due to the map's landscape, you can enter it by approaching it closely from the back). I once completed one in 0 days with a 1-1-1 setup. Or, sometimes, you can "trick" the map designer's idea by using outposts, allowing you to access areas that, according to the author's intention, can only be reached after visiting a tent. Of course, none of this is a bug in the game; it's a mistake by the map designer, or rather, an oversight. These are the things that need to be "fixed" if they're going to modify an existing product, i.e., the map. :) However, for example, prohibiting certain skills or locking units like Minotaurs in a castle is not correct. Why can't I use summoned fairies to move around? What's so wrong with that? (assuming I'm not a cheater or being overly aggressive, simply using a single fairy to scout battles. But I haven't noticed such people here, and I don't think I will). Of course, if there's no other option (and there are such maps), but generally, these aren't battles with a single fairy, but with several, and there's no need to generate morale (although there are exceptions, of course). This can happen on poor maps where there's nothing on the starting location, and you simply can't fight because there's nothing to fight with, so you have to clear out hidden areas to get a decent army. But this should be prevented by simply adding some units like halberdiers, staves, etc. In this case, all players will be on equal footing in terms of not having to fight tedious battles, and everyone will save time.
Also, the map editor should thoroughly examine the map for the aforementioned loopholes and address them, rather than, conversely, making the game more difficult for players, as if "to make it more interesting." This doesn't make the game more interesting; it makes it more linear.
And there's never a good reason to ban Minotaurs because some tactics/battles can be based on them. It's not necessary to fight a battle with 1 Minotaur against a hundred ballistas, for example. You can take 10-12 of them, buff them with Bless, Fire Strike, etc., use them as cover for the hero, and then to destroy the enemy; this is just a simple example.
Necromancy is also a very useful tool, and I don't see any reason to ban it – this is, after all, a speedrun tournament, not an army-building competition. Often, you need to level up the Necromancer to the point where they can raise ghosts, which will then speed up the hero by feeding on troughs, stables, etc. As an example.
Or simply as support in battles, for example, as an alternative to fatigue.

All of the above is purely my opinion. :)
I would like a list of all the changes made by the editor to be included with the map and save file. I think this wouldn't be too difficult. :)
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By the way, just out of curiosity: why can't crystals be eaten by graves, but corpses can be used to speed up movement? Logically, either everything should be banned, or everything should be allowed. :) And since banning the use of corpses for speed is a very silly idea, I would personally allow graves to eat rubies, sapphires, etc. :) But again, this is just my subjective opinion. :)

So, let's go through it in order:)

Did you like the original map? If so, can you tell me what exactly was removed/modified, who was responsible for this, and what guided them during the editing process?

It was edited. The guard on the bridges was strengthened, artifacts of charm and diplomacy were removed, gloves were removed from the Chaos faction's territory, the castles were made fixed, well, in general, a lot of things were changed.

In general, the 9th Caning can be called a kind of experiment and, to some extent, an answer to the question of what will happen if you try to make the map as long as possible to complete. So now, before complaining about fast completions, you can remember this Tournament. In connection with the above-mentioned goal, all more or less well-known things were removed, be it skills, trees, artifacts, and so on.

The answer to the question of whether this is good or bad, I think we have received, at least I have, as the person who worked on this map, it seems to me that the best option is to give offline players complete freedom, with a caveat regarding the rules, and perhaps also the Minotaurs. No matter what they say about them, but who prevents you from taking them and completing all the battles with them. But that's a secondary matter now:)

As a result, the map turned out to be quite linear, despite the fact that I missed some of its flaws (I confess), in general, this can also be attributed to secondary things. And, in essence, the longer the completion (in days), the more linear it probably will be (this is just an assumption, I still have little experience in such things).

Therefore, it is not desirable to simplify them and make them linear. On the contrary, it is necessary to make it so that the mind works and not only.

Well, it depends on what is meant by linearity. In this case, there were few options for completing the map, which can be called linearity. In addition to the direct completion, a stealth option was described, and all those who used it completed it faster than those who played without it. Otherwise, judge the linearity for yourself.:)

What else do I want to say... Well, in general, only that, IMHO, the more and more diverse Tournaments are held, the easier and faster it will be to identify the "golden mean". Identify it not only with the help of the maps themselves, but also thanks to the comments of the players, i.e., yours, because who are the Tournaments held for in the end?:)

Well, I think I've written everything about the map in general:)

What's so bad about that? (assuming I'm not being a jerk or acting presumptuously, just winning battles with a single fairy).

I really hate the verb "to arena-battle"... But that's not the point.
You probably don't understand that some people don't just "arena-battle" with fairies and minotaurs; they WIN those battles. They spend several dozen hours generating a landscape and planning a battle, and they win. And they immediately gain a "certain" advantage over those who aren't willing to go through such a hassle. On the one hand, these "maniacs" deserve to win because they put a lot of effort and time into the game, but on the other hand, "ordinary" players don't have a chance in such tournaments. That's why "maniacal" tactics are often banned.

I completely understand. :) I was referring to this "advantageous" situation. And ultimately, those who somehow manage to win such a battle, regardless of how, receive the same result. That is, whether it's done one way or another, there will be some imbalance between those who won and those who lost such a battle.
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And, by the way, I don't think that such people deserve to win _just_ because they played such a battle, even if they spent a lot of time on it. Because anyone can do it; it doesn't require much intelligence.
The one who calculates everything best, thinks it through, measures it, wins _complex_ tactical battles, and knows how to do without such battles, i.e., defeats everyone with their mind, not with brute force, deserves to win.
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That's it.

How I hate the verb "to cheese"... But that's not the point.
You probably don't understand that some people don't "cheese" battles with fairies and minotaurs, but actually WIN them. They spend several dozen hours generating the landscape and the battle, and they win.

When I'm studying a map, all I do is "cheese." How do you study? :) Never mind, don't get hung up on that word.
And about the dozens of hours – yes, even if you don't believe it. Especially annoying is that this activity makes you feel dull, like hitting your head against a wall.
On the other hand, banning something that you can't verify is also...

When I'm studying a map, all I do is analyze it. How about you? Never mind, don't get hung up on that.

You understand what I mean. There's a lot to learn when studying a map. I know many cheat codes by heart. :)

And about the tens of hours – yes, even if you don't believe it.

Why wouldn't I believe it? That's exactly what I'm talking about because I know... I had over 10,000 saves in one playthrough, for example. )))

Dear tournament participants, I would like to thank you for your participation and congratulate those who made it to the end!

You can view the official results and rating points awarded here: here.

And I want to congratulate our winner, who worked hard, persistently, with desire and ingenuity on his way to victory!
LeSHiJ-MaX, please accept my sincerest congratulations! :smile12:

Thank you ZYbr-u for the map and the trouble it caused :smile20:. Without him, I wouldn't have been able to prepare the tournament under time constraints.

I also thank those who responded to my request to post their Walkthroughs. I asked them selectively and only to read and compare them. Thank you! It’s a pity that not everyone responded... But that doesn't matter.
Perhaps I will introduce this as a rule: along with the save file, submit at least a brief Walkthrough! This is needed for a more thorough analysis of the Walkthrough itself and for other participants. Perhaps you will have interesting solutions, or newcomers, by posting their Walkthroughs, can get advice from masters who have analyzed their moves. In my opinion, this will be both interesting and useful :)

Now about editing the map... It is laborious and responsible work. You need to consider many nuances, as well as the rules that require revision... and from tournament to tournament, even more questions arise about what to allow and what to prohibit.
I suggest moving further discussion of the rules, bugs in the map, etc., to the appropriate thread!

And finally!

Once again, congratulations to Leshiy on his victory!:smile02: And thank you all for participating!
The Tournament is officially closed! See you in new Tournaments on HeroesWorld!

Sincerely, Luchik!