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Tournament history (offline) Closed Topic
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Offline IronAxe
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#923
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Dmitry_A_S;96906
First and foremost, the issue isn't about the possible complexity of the tournament rules, but about the possible corrections of the shortcomings made by the organizers!!!
Let's approach this problem from a different angle.
The tournament rules in the first post state that using navigation bonuses on land is prohibited. No one has made any other changes.
This prohibition means nothing to me. Because I don't know anything about these bonuses. I have a hat, I get in a boat, I sail, I get out, and I run on land. In 3.0, this automatically results in a violation of this rule, even though I haven't done anything prohibited in the game. A clarifying question was asked. The answer was:
Dmitry_A_S;96906

Amber further clarifies:
Using navigation bonuses implies getting into a boat and getting out of it to increase the MP reserve (in my opinion, this is no longer the case in SoD 3.2). If a player uses a boat to move between islands (or sections of the same island that are closer by water than by land), this is not considered using a bug.
In any case, if there is any (justified) reason for using a boat, it is not prohibited.

In any case, if there is any (justified) reason for using a boat, it is not prohibited.

What's not clear here? What did Radik do wrong? He acted strictly according to the clarification of this prohibition. This clarification was made in this thread, and those who need it can read it.
Dmitry_A_S;96906

As far as I understand, he didn't know about converting sea movement into land movement. Yes, in principle, this is not important. Who said that the list is exhaustive? I am guided by the rule mentioned above - navigation bonuses cannot be used on land. I also interpreted them correctly. And no one can "accuse" me if I challenge the final results. I don't need this at the moment, but who says that the others will agree with the results...
Amber knew about the bonus conversions, so he made an explanation and clarification of this prohibition. You were guided by the rule mentioned above, and Radik was guided by the RULE ABOVE + THE CLARIFICATION AND EXPLANATION of this point. The explanation was made during the tournament because no one explained anything before the tournament. And it says that In any case, if there is any (justified) reason for using a boat, it is not prohibited.
 This means, in other words, that using sea bonuses on land in this case is NOT PROHIBITED. What is not clear to you personally? Why, after these explanations, should players, like you, only be guided by the line of prohibition that was given before the start of the tournament? The others will have to agree with Radik's result because he acted ACCORDING TO THE RULES established by the organizers and clarified by them in this thread.
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Offline Kamikaze
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#924
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Dmitry_A_S;96906
As far as I understand, he wasn't aware of the thing about converting naval movement into land movement. Yes, in principle, it's not important. Who said that the list is exhaustive? I'm guided by the rule mentioned above - you can't use navigation bonuses on land. I also interpreted them correctly. And no one can "accuse" me if I challenge the final results. I don't need to do this at the moment, but who said that the others will agree with the results...
I agree with this.
But I won't challenge the final results either, even though I think I should.
Just one nuance: in the first round, when the rule about buying a dismissed hero hadn't been established yet (as if everyone knew about it), I specifically eliminated Moner three times, thinking that I was doing it within the rules, and my result wasn't counted. Because the organizers decided that it wouldn't be fair to others. :) And I agreed.

Added 4 minutes later
IronAxe;96926
Because I don't know about any bonuses at all.
Well said - I DON'T KNOW.
And then some person will come along, play for the first time, use a bunch of bugs, and then say, "Why are you bothering me, I don't know about any bugs."
And should his result be counted? That wouldn't be very nice either.
I think we should wait for the administration's verdict, okay? :)
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Offline ewgeniy
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#925
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Sorry for going off-topic, but I have a question:
I've been playing for a long time (offline with friends), and I always used the boat. If there's a hat, you can sail from one part of the land to another and still explore there. :)
Does this mean it's a bug?
В. Уэйтс©
Но поскольку я нищий,
у меня лишь есть мечты.
Я разостлал свои мечты пред вашими ногами.
Ступайте бережно, ибо вы ступаете по моим мечтам.

временно ушел с форума, переодически заглядываю. кому нужен пишите в скайп ewgeniy1985. в аське 384385000 очень редко.
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Offline IronAxe
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#926
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Kamikaze;96931
I agree with this.
But I won't argue about the final results either, even though I should.
You can argue, but it won't change anything because Radik acted within the rules. :)
Kamikaze;96931

There's just one nuance: in the first round, when the rule about buying a dismissed hero hadn't been established yet (as if everyone knew about it), I deliberately eliminated Monera three times, thinking I was acting within the rules, but my result wasn't counted. The organizers decided that it wouldn't be fair to others. :) And I agreed.
You could have argued, because technically you were right. There was an error by the organizers. The bug was so obvious and had already been discussed in previous tournaments that they forgot to mention it in their rules because the tournament was just starting. However, I wouldn't support you simply because you are only technically right. It turns out that you took advantage of an error by the organizers by using an obvious bug that they forgot to mention. But Radik's case is different. VDV requested clarification on the ban regarding the bonus bug. The organizers responded. The response made it clear that in certain cases, it is possible to get in and out of the boat with a hat and receive bonuses, and this would not be a violation. After that, Radik used this. What is his violation? And he is not exploiting the organizers' mistakes like you did in the first round of the blitz. So, don't try to twist the situation to suit your needs. Read the rules, read the amendments, and act strictly in accordance with them. :)
Kamikaze;96931

Added 4 minutes ago
You're right - I DON'T KNOW.
But then someone will come along, play for the first time, use a bunch of bugs, and then say, "Why are you bothering me? I don't even know about any bugs."
And should his result be counted? That wouldn't be very fair either.
Stop exaggerating the situation. :) Let him use whatever he wants as long as he doesn't violate any explicit prohibitions. The prohibition regarding bonuses was explicit, but it doesn't work on version 3.0, and I'm tired of explaining this to you. The organizers realized this and made it clear that on version 3.0, if someone simply gets in the boat and immediately gets out to receive a bonus, it won't work. But if you can find a reasonable explanation for why you got in, where you were going, and why, then it won't be considered a bug, even though you will still receive the bonuses. And they explained this in the CLARIFICATION to this particular prohibition. Stop pretending you don't know. :)
Kamikaze;96931

I think we should wait for the administration's verdict. :)
Go ahead and wait. :) It's easier for them to shoot themselves now than to annul Radik's result. He acted strictly according to the rules while playing on version 3.0. By the way, a question for Dmitry AS - what version are you playing on?

Added 7 minutes ago
ewgeniy;96934
Excuse me for being off-topic, but I have a question:
I've been playing for a long time (offline with computers) and I've always used the boat, and if there's a hat, I can sail from one part of the land to another and then walk around there. :)
Does this mean it's a bug?
Ask the computers. If they agree, then keep using it. Just kidding. No one will stop you on version 3.0 if you have a hat and want to sail wherever you need to, get out, and walk on land in ONE TURN. Accordingly, you will justifiably receive sea bonuses on land. There are several options:
1. Ban the Sea Hat. :)
2. Have everyone play on a version higher than 3.0 where it's fixed, but it's still unknown if it's fixed there or not. :)
3. Play on version 3.0; those who want to play on it can, because no one has forbidden it. :)
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Offline DmitriyAS
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#927
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I'm playing on version 3.2. In any case, the bug with landing and disembarking doesn't occur. And why are you so defensive about Radic? Did he share his walkthrough with you? The whole point is that if anyone believed (like I did) that using navigation bonuses on land is prohibited in any form, then they are also right. From what Amber explained, it doesn't follow that the list of prohibitions is exhaustive. First of all, the general rule applies - using navigation bonuses on land is prohibited.
I agree that we need to hear his opinion after he has familiarized himself with the information available at the moment.
DmitriyAS

Кто сильнее или шаблон для сравнения городов по силе.
Различие офф-лайна в Heroes II и Heroes III.
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Offline IronAxe
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#928
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Dmitry_A_S;96937
I'm playing on 3.2. In any case, the bug with embarking and disembarking doesn't occur. And why are you so defensive about Radical? Did he give you his Walkthrough?
:) In what sense? Why was I then "out of the game" over Paris? The truth is more important. Because I'm playing on 3.0 and can't patch it, although I've already tried downloading everything I could find, and AmberSoler and VDV can vouch for that. And I'm not the only one. If you ban playing on 3.0, you'll lose players in Tournaments; it's easier to ban the Sea Serpent Helm. :)
Dmitry_A_S;96937

The whole point is that if anyone thought (like I did) that using navigation bonuses on land is prohibited in any form, then they are also right. Amber's explanation doesn't imply that the list of prohibitions is exhaustive. First of all,
the General rule applies - using navigation bonuses on land is prohibited.
I'm tired of explaining this to you too. I have the Sea Serpent Helm, I got in, sailed across, and I have plenty of moves left - on what basis can I not get out of the boat because of this prohibition (I have the helm)? And if I get out, then the bonus will automatically activate. How can I not violate this prohibition? In other words, you want the Sea Serpent Helm to work on version 3.0 ONLY when embarking in the boat, and you shouldn't be able to disembark on land on that turn? That's not funny. Then let's do the same on version 3.2 to make everyone equal, and we'll play with broken heroes. :)
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Offline DmitriyAS
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#929
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IronAxe;96938
:) I'm also tired of explaining things to you.

No one is asking you to exert yourself so much right now. Take a break, think everything over, choose the right words, and then we'll be happy to hear from you.
I agree that it would be easier to resolve these bonuses. It would solve many problems. But who said that the easy path would be the right one?
I repeat, it's better to wait for the opinions of AmberSoler, Kyle, and VDV_forever. After their comments, everything will be more or less clear.
DmitriyAS

Кто сильнее или шаблон для сравнения городов по силе.
Различие офф-лайна в Heroes II и Heroes III.
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Offline IronAxe
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#930
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Dmitry_A_S;96939
No one is asking you to go to such lengths right now. Take a break, think everything over, choose the right words, and then we'll be happy to hear from you. I agree that it would be easier to resolve these bonuses. It would solve many problems. But who said that the easy path would be the right one?
While I'm resting, you'll push through your amendment :) Why would the easy path be the right one? Because they say that all genius things are simple :) If those who play on 3.2 also can't switch to 3.0 when playing with a hat, then we should prohibit disembarking from the boat ON THE SAME TURN for everyone. Then the owners of different versions will be on equal footing. And if we allow these bonuses, then the bonuses will only be for the owners of 3.0, but no one is prohibiting them from playing on it yet. Therefore, the owners of 3.2 can switch to 3.0 for a while, and if they can't, then at the moment it's their problem. If they completely prohibit playing on 3.0, then these problems will move to another group of people :)

Added 10 minutes ago
Dmitry_A_S;96939

I repeat that it is better to wait for the opinion of AmberSoler, Kyle, VDV_forever. After their statements, everything will be more or less clear.
:) Well, let's listen to the bosses of the transport department :) At least, when giving explanations on this point, AmberSoler took into account that it is allowed to play on different versions, so it was easier to allow the justified receipt of bonuses on versions 3.0 than to prohibit them from disembarking from the boats :)
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Offline Ley
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#931
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I have more questions again.
to AmberSoler: for example, if you just get into a boat (meaning my save) with one fairy and a gold dragon and then run into an oasis, there are still too few moves; but if you dismiss one of the creatures, there are tons. Why is that, and is it a bug?
Personally, I replaced the dragon with a troglodyte, dismissed the troglodyte, and got into the boat—then everything was fine.
And another thing: Radik wrote that he dismissed a hero and then used this. So, I'll support VDV—is it actually allowed to dismiss and then move with that same hero on the same day? Iron wrote that "naturally" you can, but as far as I know, the rules allowed this only if it wasn't on the same day; am I wrong?
P.S. As for Radik doing everyone using the boat trick, that's not his fault, but his achievement. Being cunning is a good thing...
"Единственное, что можно сказать с уверенностью об удаче - она изменит..."
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Offline IronAxe
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#932
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Ley;96949

And also: Radik wrote that he dismissed the hero, and then used him. So, I support VDV, is it allowed to dismiss a hero and then use him on the same day? Iron wrote that "of course" it is possible, but I think it was allowed in the rules, but not on the same day, am I wrong?
You are really annoying :) You need to read not only what VDV wrote, but also what Radik wrote :) And Radik wrote that he didn't get dismissed, but ran away. VDV might have glitched in a half-sleep, but you, you read VDV, but didn't read Radik's post. And Iron wrote that it is, of course, possible to use him on the same day if you RAN AWAY :p
Ley;96949

P.S. And regarding the fact that Radik defeated everyone using the trick with the boat, it's not his fault, but his merit. Cunning is a good thing...
Cunning is when you defeat everyone using unfair methods and violating the rules :) But in this case, ingenuity is a good thing :)
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Offline Ley
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#933
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IronAxe;96951
You're all so annoying :) . And Iron wrote that naturally you can travel on the same day if you ESCAPED
Why shout? I got it, did I step on your foot or something? I just asked for my own information, and you immediately reach for the axe:)

IronAxe;96951
Being sneaky is when you beat everyone using dishonest methods and breaking rules :) But in this case - ingenuity - that's a good thing :)
I disagree here. Being sneaky is the ability to beat everyone by using tricks that very few people know (this is something Radika and you could have learned from) and not at all what you wrote.
Ingenuity is precise calculation combined with knowledge, in this case for HEROES III :)
"Единственное, что можно сказать с уверенностью об удаче - она изменит..."
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Offline AmberSoler
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#934
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Hello, all you debaters! :) 1. Using the bonus from sea movement points on land is forbidden in any form, because I consider this to be a bug. Anyone who wants to can familiarize themselves with this in the article I provided. It doesn't cover all aspects of the bug, but only shows the calculation of movement points. If I have time, I will explain the rest sometime... 2. My comments regarding the use of this bug were about the most common method used by cheaters (and that's exactly what you are, dear Iron) – landing/embarking to accumulate movement points. SoD 3.2 doesn't allow the use of this mechanism, but I didn't want people with other versions to naively think that "if it's not explicitly forbidden, it's allowed"... :) If you had asked me to explain all aspects of using this "hat," the fourth stage wouldn't have started yet, so I limited myself to a general ban on using the sea bonus and commented on how this bug is usually used... 3. Dmitry_A_S interpreted my explanations absolutely correctly. And how else, tell me, can one understand the phrase "using navigation bonuses on land is forbidden"? 4. Understanding that this ban is a double-edged sword, and to avoid misinterpretation of this ban in cases where using the "hat" was appropriate, I additionally stated that if there is a reasonable basis for using the mechanism built into the "hat" to recalculate bonuses, then it is allowed. Otherwise, any use of the Admiral's "hat" can be disputed, which will turn the game into an endless argument. 5. In this case, the walkthrough provided by Radik formally falls under the note stated in the previous paragraph. Escaping by bribing the guardians in order to be hired in the home city is a sufficient reason for using the "hat." The hero had no other way to get to the city. So, "formally," I can't make any claims here. Let's leave everything as it is. 6. Regarding the suggestion to "make changes to the rules during the tournament," I assure you that nothing good will come of it, and therefore it will not pass at any level... All changes (please don't confuse this with clarifications of existing rules) will only take effect after the tournament is over... But since the player is voicing a "trick" that he noticed on the map, I have to comment on it for everyone; there is nothing else I can do. If he had sent me a private message, I would have answered only him and wouldn't have brought it up in the thread. And regarding "selling the last unit" – this is not a correct interpretation of this moment. You are not selling the last unit, but exchanging it for gold with the Mage. And tell me, how often do you encounter this on the map? I think it's the first time... You can't sell the last unit in principle. But an exchange – well, that's your right, if the map allows it and it's not explicitly forbidden... 2 Iron. Regarding allowing the use of "pseudo-bugs," I will say the same thing as before. If you want, start a tournament and officially allow the use of everything the player knows in the game, without using third-party programs. That would also be quite interesting. But don't interfere in someone else's business with your own rules. I am against allowing the use of bugs, because it will create a lot of additional problems with verification... And that's enough about that.
Сначала было слово...
FizMiG v.2.0 *** Очередное обновление справочника! *** http://vk.com/fizmig

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Offline Kamikaze
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#935
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ewgeniy;96934
Sorry for being off-topic, but I have a question:
I've been playing for a long time (offline with friends), and I always used the boat. If there's a hat, you can sail from one part of the land to another and still walk around there. :)
Does this mean it's a bug?
No, it means that the Admiral's Hat artifact works. It was created for that purpose – to allow you to sail and then walk around. ;) A bug is something else. :)
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Offline AmberSoler
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#936
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Kamikaze;96956
No, it means that the Admiral's Hat artifact is working. It was created for that purpose – to allow you to cross the water and then walk around. ;) And the bug is something else. :)
Absolutely correct, exploiting a bug is when a hero deliberately gets into a boat and gets out of it only to increase their MP.
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FizMiG v.2.0 *** Очередное обновление справочника! *** http://vk.com/fizmig

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Offline DmitriyAS
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#937
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AmberSoler;96955

6. Regarding the proposal to "make changes to the rules during the tournament," I assure you that nothing good will come of it, and therefore it will not pass at any level... All changes (please do not confuse this with clarifications of existing rules) will only take effect after the tournament is over...

No offense intended, but you have already clarified things once...
I say this because, in the absence of your clarifications, it would be easier for you to defend your position. But now - loopholes have appeared, and one of them has been exploited by a hero who is currently apparently applying for a "patent" on what he claims to have invented.
DmitriyAS

Кто сильнее или шаблон для сравнения городов по силе.
Различие офф-лайна в Heroes II и Heroes III.
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