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Posts from Post-tournament analysis and discussion of the CIS Tournament Regulations.

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In reply to Piterius
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#125
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I decided to chime in as well. Let me explain to some of those who are waving their fists around, saying "let's not allow it," "this isn't a tournament, it's something else," "let's reconsider," "he doesn't deserve it." Yes, you're getting annoying with your whining. The second round is underway, and we're getting closer to the final stage. Lizard hasn't lost yet and really wants to reach the finals. Reddi already has a loss. As a result, Lizard is taking extreme measures, which are technically legal with some caveats, with the sole purpose of preserving his chances in this tournament, and nothing more. There are still many games ahead against skilled opponents. He acted unpleasantly, but this action only gave him a chance; it's not buying the game, it's not buying the tournament. It's a flaw in the system when the winner faces a loser in the second round. And wouldn't buying a free slot be the same thing in your opinion? Moreover, it's even cheaper. Essentially, if someone who won the tournament by going through one of the rounds with a free slot was like Lizard. He was unlucky with the free slot in the second round, and he decided to buy it. Then Mizrael simply handed the win to Lizard; those who saw their game know this. Mizrael choked. The chance of facing a maximum-level opponent was 10% (go away immediately, mathematicians who are ready to nitpick this; I know everything myself), and he got it. Then Aive did something incredible against Hell. And then the Swiss system made Lizard the winner. So, who is to blame? Maybe Mizrael, maybe Aive, the Swiss system, and if we remember the generator, it's here too? Everything was very delicate. The moment when Lizard bought Reddi didn't decide anything, but it decided everything. Many things came together, and Lizard's purchase fit well into the overall picture. P.S.: Everyone understands this, the reasonable people. Look at how Hell reacted. He should be the most offended, but he sees the bigger picture. Yes, I was rooting for Kostya myself, but I wanted a final between Hell and Lizard, but unfortunately, it didn't happen. This is all thanks to Mizrael, and I feel very sorry for him. Why aren't the participants themselves writing "disqualify," "strip of the title," and other nonsense? Should we disqualify those who took their places thanks to free slots? Conclusions: The Swiss system needs to be modified; a final should always be held in tournaments of this kind. Free slots, at a minimum, should be excluded for the winners; the winners facing losers should be excluded as well (they were all focused on the result, and I find it hard to imagine a situation where one of the participants would sell out to another in equal tournament conditions); game recordings should be kept (let's say on OBS, which allows almost any laptop to do it) for judging; the tournament regulations and rules should be improved; discipline regarding deadlines and in the venue should be enforced.
ICQ: 564224919
In reply to Toganash
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#126
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Toganash
I decided to chime in as well. Let me explain to some people who are waving their fists around, saying "let's not allow it," "this isn't a tournament, it's something else," "let's reconsider," "he doesn't deserve it." Yes, you're being annoying with your whining.

It's the second round, and we're getting closer to the final stage. Lizard hasn't lost yet and really wants to reach the final. Reddi already has a loss. As a result, Lizard is taking extreme measures, which are technically legal with some caveats, with the sole purpose of preserving his chances in this tournament, and nothing more. There are still many games ahead with skilled opponents. He acted unpleasantly, but this action only gave him a chance; it's not buying the game, it's not buying the tournament. It's a flaw in the system, when the winner faces a loser in the second round. And isn't buying a free slot the same thing? Moreover, it's even cheaper. Essentially, if someone who won the tournament by going through one of the rounds with a free slot was like Lizard. He was unlucky with the free slot in the second round, and he decided to buy it.

Then Mizrael simply gifted the win to Lizard; those who saw their game know this. Mizrael threw the game. The chance of encountering a maximum-level opponent was 10% (go away immediately, mathematicians who are ready to nitpick this; I know everything myself).

Then Aive did something incredible against Hell.

And then the Swiss system made Lizard the winner.

So, who is to blame? Maybe Mizrael, maybe Aive, the Swiss system, and if we remember the generator, it's here too? Everything was very subtle. The moment when Lizard bought Reddi didn't decide anything, but it decided everything. Many things came together, and Lizard's purchase of the game fit well into the overall picture.

P.S.: Everyone understands this, the reasonable people. See how Hell reacted to it. He should be the most upset, but he sees the bigger picture.

Yes, I was rooting for Kostya myself, but I wanted a final between Hell and Lizard, but unfortunately, it didn't happen. This is all thanks to Mizrael, and I feel very sorry for him.

Why aren't the participants themselves writing "disqualify," "strip of the title," and other nonsense? Should we disqualify those who took their places thanks to free slots?

Conclusions: The Swiss system needs to be modified; a final is always needed in tournaments of this kind. Free slots, at a minimum, should be excluded for winners; the pairing of winners with losers should be excluded as well (they were all focused on the result, and I find it hard to imagine a situation where one of the participants would sell out to another in equal tournament conditions); game recordings should be kept (let's say on OBS, which allows almost any laptop to do it) for judging; the tournament regulations and rules should be improved; discipline regarding deadlines and in the venue.
HellLighT
I completely agree with Merlin that such things should be suppressed in every possible way. In my opinion, such victories are worthless.
Wipe your glasses, and then write. I think it's clear why Hell is behaving reservedly, but I don't think it doesn't upset him, because unlike you, he's against match-fixing, and he's not alone in this.
In reply to Toganash
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#127
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Once, I read a book about shaping the agenda (and I can even cite Dyakov E. G. and Trakhtenberg A. D., "Establishing the Agenda: Theory and Technology," Yekaterinburg, 2005), where the authors, among other things, showed how the perception of facts differs between event-based and analytical presentations. In the first case, the reader will hold the participant of the events responsible for what happened, while in the second case, they will blame the system. That's why analysts conclude that the system left Lizard with no choice, and the invisible hand of the market pushed Redwait to sell the game.
And Lizard, in general, performed a champion-like act by buying the game, while Hell did not perform a champion-like act – and therefore did not become a champion. It all seems logical.
Requesting that for the next CIS tournament, we use the famous chant about Lizard, who bought everything.
ICQ 423164784

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#128
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I’m definitely not good at all these calculations, but maybe it makes sense to reconsider the game system itself? In some sports, there’s a simple system without any complications. After the draw, a player has two attempts; as long as they don’t lose, they stay in the upper bracket. If they lose, they move to the lower bracket and play against the losers. If they lose twice, they’re eliminated. And that’s it, without any points or Berger systems. The only one from the lower bracket who wins against everyone there gets the right to play in the final for prizes. Or is this system not suitable for computer tournaments?
Всё будет хорошо!!! Только неизвестно когда... НО ОБЯЗАТЕЛЬНО БУДЕТ!!!
Но!...
Слушай всех, прислушивайся к немногим, решай сам...

In reply to Vigo
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#129
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Vigo
I'm definitely not good at all these calculations, but maybe it makes sense to reconsider the game system itself? In some sports, there's a simple system without any complications. After the draw, a player has two attempts; as long as they don't lose, they stay in the upper bracket. If they lose, they move to the lower bracket and play against the losers. If they lose twice, they're eliminated. And that's it, without any points or Berger systems. The only one from the lower bracket who wins against everyone there gets the right to play in the final for prizes. Or is this system not suitable for computer tournaments?
It's impossible to play a double-elimination tournament in 4-5 rounds. Even with 16 players.
Я в мечеть не за праведным словом пришёл.
Не стремясь приобщиться к основам пришёл.
В прошлый раз утащил я молитвенный коврик,
Он истерся до дыр, - я за новым пришёл.

© О. Хайям

In reply to Juristis
#130
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Juristis
I might be missing something in this life, but in my mind, the words "worthy victory" and "agreed-upon game" don't go together.
Only a "clean draw":D
Когда рестартов не осталось, обязательно ждите Гурниссона без балисты:D

Комплимент который сделал мой день:
Катя ЭПИК барышня) вы бы видели как пялились на её сиськи молодёж) я та с девушкой был) но всё равно пялился ) потому что хорошие) (с) Browser

Слабая раздача, которую заиграл исключительно из-за колпака на 111. (с) Сатир

In reply to oxygen_hl
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#131
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oxygen_hl
It's impossible to play a double elimination in 4-5 rounds. Even with 16 players.
Hi Dim. I think it's possible. If you organize the time for the games properly, and set strict time limits for each game.
Всё будет хорошо!!! Только неизвестно когда... НО ОБЯЗАТЕЛЬНО БУДЕТ!!!
Но!...
Слушай всех, прислушивайся к немногим, решай сам...

In reply to oxygen_hl
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#132
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oxygen_hl
It's impossible to play a double elimination in 4-5 rounds. Even with 16 players.
A double elimination from May 1st to 8th or 9th seems quite manageable with a bracket of 16 players, so please don't say otherwise:cool: but that's just my opinion!

лето 2012.
In reply to Dark
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#133
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Dark
double elimination from May 1st to 8th-9th. I think it's quite manageable with a bracket of 16 players, and there's no need to argue otherwise:cool:
Really? Of course, it's easy to play in just 8 rounds. But there aren't 8 rounds. The maximum is 6, and that's already a tight schedule with the risk of having to finish games online. Because many people are already married and need to spend a couple of days with their families during the May holidays. Many take time off work in such a way that they work on the 8th and 9th in exchange for being given extra days off on the 5th, 6th, and 7th. Thus, we have five and a half full days of gameplay. To extend the duration, you'd have to negotiate with Putin to extend the May holidays to the 15th.
Нам это идеально подойдёт! (с)

"Совесть - она либо есть, либо её нет" (с) RedWhait HP
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#134
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Well, actually, 6 rounds in 6 days can be done with the right approach to game time. Is 1 round per day impossible? Roughly from 9 am to 6 pm (and some players might be able to play longer, but the game time is strictly defined for everyone). Surely, a player can't play 1-2 games a day? Or am I missing something?
Всё будет хорошо!!! Только неизвестно когда... НО ОБЯЗАТЕЛЬНО БУДЕТ!!!
Но!...
Слушай всех, прислушивайся к немногим, решай сам...

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#135
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I specifically checked: next year, May 1st falls on a Monday. So, essentially, from April 29th to May 9th, there are 11 days off. Especially if it's a resort location – Crimea or Sochi – it's very easy to get in 8 full days of gaming, with a 100% guarantee. I completely agree with Ed on this matter. And, by the way, we are both family men.
http://ru.twitch.tv/lizard_wt
In reply to =Lizard=
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#136
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=Lizard=
I specifically checked: next year, May 1st falls on a Monday. So, essentially, from April 29th to May 9th, there are 11 days off. Especially if it's a resort location – Crimea or Sochi – it's very easy to double that to 8-10 guaranteed gaming days. I completely agree with Ed on this matter. And, by the way, we are both family men.
What if there are, say, 21 players? Will we "decide on the spot" again? :)
Я в мечеть не за праведным словом пришёл.
Не стремясь приобщиться к основам пришёл.
В прошлый раз утащил я молитвенный коврик,
Он истерся до дыр, - я за новым пришёл.

© О. Хайям

In reply to oxygen_hl
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#137
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oxygen_hl
What if there are, say, 21 players? Will we "decide on the spot" again? :)
oxy, creating a special registration with entry fees is so easy. "This is perfect for us," and as a last resort, if there are 25+ players, we can create a 32-player bracket with free slots that will disappear towards the end of the bracket and won't affect anything, including the skill level between players...

лето 2012.
In reply to oxygen_hl
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#138
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oxygen_hl
What if there are, say, 21 players? Will we decide on the spot again? :)
We'll add bots. But no free slots! I'll play as the 22nd player. Or someone else will, I think there will be people willing to move their units for a few hours for the sake of the Tournament's integrity.
Всё будет хорошо!!! Только неизвестно когда... НО ОБЯЗАТЕЛЬНО БУДЕТ!!!
Но!...
Слушай всех, прислушивайся к немногим, решай сам...

In reply to Dark
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#139
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Dark
Oxy, creating a special registration with entry fees is so easy. "This is perfect for us." And as a last resort, if there are 25+ players, we can make a 32-player bracket with free slots that will disappear towards the end of the bracket and won't affect anything, including the skill level between players...
A full double-elimination tournament with 32 players is 10 rounds, that's a lot :)
Even 8 rounds is not easy. Not everyone can travel for 10 days (financially, organizationally, etc.). Anything higher than 8 is just wishful thinking :)
Я в мечеть не за праведным словом пришёл.
Не стремясь приобщиться к основам пришёл.
В прошлый раз утащил я молитвенный коврик,
Он истерся до дыр, - я за новым пришёл.

© О. Хайям

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