Posts from TOURNAMENT TROUBLES!

Maybe we should add a rule:
Maps should be submitted a couple of days before the tournament for voting.
I suggest that clan leaders be part of the committee, and they will conduct a poll within their clans and make a decision.

ArtMoney also ONLY SAVES TIME. It's just a Super Automator because it's professional. Yes, you can use it to win any battle, but who forces you to cheat?! Play fairly and use anything to save your real time, but WITHOUT VIOLATING THE RULES OF THE GAME!

How can it only save time? ArtMoney works with values, with numbers, with digits. It doesn't automate cyclical processes; it makes changes to the structure!!!

Added 17 minutes later

Maybe we should add a clause to the rules:
The map should be published a couple of days before the tournament for voting.
I suggest that the leaders of the Clans act as a commission, and then the leaders will conduct a poll in their Clans and make a decision.

Well, if we're talking only about mega-tournaments, then yes. But if it's just ranked tournaments, then I think it's up to the organizer.

so... I'll give my opinion...
the vbn automator is an ordinary program that records mouse clicks — which, by the way, can be used not only in Heroes
Artmoney can sometimes be detected — it changes values.. in the game's structure — i.e. it modifies the save......... not infrequently after using it, bugs appear on the map or the game just crashes (I personally tried it on different scenarios) Artmoney — I don't use it in Heroes at all....
In this tournament I used vbn's automator......
IMHO.... if I hadn't taken the Surprise, I wouldn't have been able to complete this map in such a short time....... which means the results would have been different........ the Surprise could have been taken manually — but can you imagine how much effort and strain (especially on the eyes) would have been expended........ so the automator is nothing more than a replacement for a human during combat — which, in principle, is not illegal....
So I'm in favor of the automator being allowed and permitted....
=)))));)

_____ Sincerely, RAP______

Maybe we should add a clause to the rules:
Post the map a couple of days before the tournament for voting.
As a commission, I propose the clan leaders, and the leaders will then conduct a poll in their clans and make a decision.

Apparently, you need to be appointed as the tournament organizer so you won't make such suggestions :) And what if the clan leaders and players never reach a consensus on the map. Then we'll just sit and watch endless voting :)

Added after 8 minutes

So I'm in favor of the automator being allowed and permitted....

This automator is too simplified, and making a powerful automator is too problematic, this was discussed with vbn. Therefore, this automator will not always work. Take this fight with the ballista, if you don't neutralize your troops' morale, the automator won't work. And then you'd have to struggle manually. But how would a player break the rules if he doesn't want to neutralize his troops' morale?? Why would he have to strain his eyes unlike you in this case???? And what would happen if he used vbn's Artifact instead of the automator for this fight?? Can you explain this situation clearly and what makes you better with vbn's automator than that player who decided to complete this fight without neutralizing his troops' morale (since that's not prohibited by the rules)?? What would his violation be if he used ArtMoney in this case??

It's time to speak out, and also to summarize the preliminary results of the debates, across 3 pages :)

1)Ataman Thank you, that was my oversight, I'll take it into account; this incident will not happen again
2) IronAxe and everyone who believes that using ArtMany is possible without the organizer detecting it: please send such saves to me for verification.
That is, send me 2 ORIGINAL saves used by you during the Walkthrough where you DID NOT USE ArtMany (immediately before the battle for the surprise and immediately after its conclusion) and +2 of these same saves before and after the battle WITH the USE of ArtMany.
I officially declare that ArtMany is the greatest cheating program of all time and nations; therefore, if I discover that a player has used it (regardless of the situation), that player will be punished, and severely!
From this follows the following:
I propose to introduce the following point into the current rules for Heroes 3 offline Tournaments:

Before long battles, as well as after them, regardless of the day of the week or month, make 2 saves: one immediately before the battle itself, and the second immediately after its conclusion! RENAMING THE ORIGINAL SAVES MADE IN SUCH BATTLES IS FORBIDDEN! If a player cannot provide 2 such saves upon the organizer's request, or if they are not original, the player will be recognized as a cheater and will be permanently barred from participating in tournaments.

P.S. It should be understood here that there are pro players who can win a long, protracted fight on the first day and finish the tournament on the 5th day, and novice players who play for pleasure and may play for 5-10 months, during which long, protracted battles on their part are inevitable (perhaps they are even more protracted than the pros'). And all saves must be checked, since all players are in absolutely equal conditions.

Qwerty
Excluding from the tournament map:
Heroes with ballistas, first aid tents, Castles with artifact traders, half the monsters, as well as buildings, magic, and so on, would exclude the majority of players from the tournament due to it being UNINTERESTING! With all due respect to you, I cannot allow this!
I believe I gave an example in the first post of what would result from this. Please read it again.
P.S. Can you even imagine such a tournament? You can try to make such a map and present it as an amateur tournament.
P.P.S. I am already removing the most essential things, if you haven't noticed.

Kyle
Nitpicking my words is not a good trait; it doesn't suit you, especially since you understand perfectly well what I meant in the first post of this thread. I am not to blame for the fact that you didn't write down the skill tree, although I do sympathize with you.
Better yet, suggest real ideas for optimizing the rules that can be implemented starting from the next tournament. You should be the most interested in this in the first place.
Regarding VERY GOOD TRAINING TOURNAMENTS:
Did you notice how many people attended it?
Therefore, I would rather put it this way:
It's better to open a special thread, or even a section dedicated to HEROES PUZZLES (by the way, I know an old resource where these puzzles were posted, but for some reason, they weren't sorted out)!
Please do not take your anger out on me.

3) THE BALLISTA IS NOT A BUG!
If we state that it is a BUG, then in a normal medium battle, say 22-30 rounds, it is practically IMPOSSIBLE to track that the ballista fired 25 times and the battle ended!
If we also request such saves from players, before and after, then we must also request a description of the battle itself. Here again arises a huge problem – it is PRACTICALLY IMPOSSIBLE TO REPEAT 25 MOVES IDENTICALLY, EVEN IF YOU DISREGARD MORALE AND LUCK (exceptions are battles like the surprise, where the situation is winning by default and it can be repeated without problems, but that is not what we are talking about here)!
There are actually 2 ways out here:
a) Allow the ballista, as it was allowed for us, as well as on any other game resource dedicated to Heroes.
b) Ban the ballista, the ammo cart, the first aid tent, all heroes who already have these attributes at the start, and external dwellings where the aforementioned equipment can be purchased.
Although there is a third.
If the developer of Heroes 3 himself says that the ballista is a BUG, but the ammo cart and first aid tent are not, then I will consider the ballista a Bug and the cart and tent not; in any other case, the Ballista is a feature, just like the tent and the cart!

4) Alex_R
There was already a practice of shortening the deadlines for submitting saves (see the 1st Heroes 5 tournament). But it didn't catch on, because there are players who complete the tournament in the final days. Why should we hinder them in this.
In turn, I promise you that all subsequent tournaments organized by me will not allow a single save to be accepted after the deadline specified in the rules!
P.S. Over time, everyone gets used to the rules, just as they got used to the standard designation of the final save and the tournament participant table. I love order, I hate chaos!

I want to separately thank everyone who liked the tournament, those who put in all their effort to complete it, and those who supported me after its conclusion.

And finally, allow me to comment on Kamikaze's post

QUOTE:
"Listen, why are you all chewing over the same thing, this way and that. It's obvious: some like it, others don't. In any case, it's impossible to please everyone!!! There will always be dissatisfied people. Tournaments are different too. Next time the map will be more suitable for Kyle, Zingel, and Hexorin. It just so happened that this map has such a 'long' battle. For variety, so to speak."

P.S. And who said that the surprise, or SD, must be taken??? Everyone chooses their own path, their own strategy, tactics. That's what HEROES are all about!

Respectfully, VDV_forever

How does this even save time? ArtMoney works with values, with numbers, with digits. It doesn't automate cyclical processes; it makes changes to the structure!!!

What structure are you talking about? The input is a ballista and a sniper. The output is the same as after using the vbn automation tool. What's your problem with numbers and digits?

Added 16 minutes later

Before long battles, and also after them, regardless of the day of the week or the month, make 2 saves, one immediately before the battle, and the second immediately after it ends! RENAMING THE ORIGINAL SAVES MADE IN SUCH BATTLES IS PROHIBITED! If a player cannot provide 2 such saves upon request from the organizer, or they are not original, then the player will be declared a cheater and will be permanently excluded from participating in tournaments.

I don't understand anything :) How will you know who renamed the saves and who didn't? Another absolute prohibition? What do you mean by ORIGINAL saves? An experiment was conducted in the 4th game with Gorbik on the portal - he was sent about 6 saves, three of which were clean, and three were modified by one hacker, another with ArtMoney, and the third with a CHEAT CODE. He was asked to point to the clean ones - it was a complete failure :) Even with a cheat code in the fourth game, they won't catch you. They only catch you based on descriptions of the gameplay and battle tactics!
PS. VDV! Hexedit is an even more cheating program than ArtMoney. And there are even better ones, but I don't know them. Okay, there are rules about having two saves - BEFORE and AFTER the battle - we will follow them!

I don't understand anything :) How do you know who renamed the save files and who didn't? Another absolute prohibition? What do you mean by ORIGINAL save files? In Heroes 4, an experiment was conducted with Gorbik on the portal - he was sent about 6 save files, three of which were clean, and three were modified by one hacker, another using ArtMoney, and the third using cheat codes. He was asked to point out the clean ones - it was a complete failure :) Even with cheat codes in Heroes 4, they won't be detected. They only detect it based on descriptions of the playthrough and battle tactics!

And you, send them to me, and I'll try;) . By ORIGINAL SAVE FILES, I mean save files that were made while you were playing, and not the ones you renamed after completing the game, for the convenience of providing them to the tournament organizer. And how will I know:D it's elementary, my dear Watson:D

AND I'M TIRED OF TALKING ABOUT CHEAT PROGRAMS!
WE DON'T HAVE ANY PLAYERS ON OUR SITE WHO USE THEM!

at least, I haven't met any yet, and none of the organizers have either!

Sincerely, VDV_forever

You send them to me, and I'll try ;) By ORIGINAL SAVES, I mean saves that were made at the time you played, not those you renamed after the Walkthrough for the convenience of providing them to the tournament organizer. As for how I'll find out :D it's simply ironclad :D
AND STOP TALKING TO ME ABOUT CHEATING PROGRAMS!
THERE ARE NO PLAYERS ON OUR SITE WHO USE THEM!
at any rate, I haven't encountered any yet, and none of the organizers have either!
Respectfully, VDV_forever

Fine, you've convinced me. You'll catch everything - so it's better not to even try.

P.S. VDV! hexedit is an even more powerful cheating program than ArtMoney. And there are even better ones, but I don't know them.

And I know: notepad, far, C++, protel:D

Okay - there are rules about having two save files - BEFORE and AFTER the battle - we will follow them!

Well, at least you agreed on something:)

Although, if the goal is to hack the save file in such a way that no one can track it, then it can be done. But sooner or later, such a person will be caught.
There are hackers who invent viruses, and antiviruses are written for these viruses. There are criminals, and there is law enforcement to deal with them, and so on.
But we won't stoop to that, will we?

P.S. If you approach the game in the way you do, then maybe we should cancel the tournaments altogether.

Sincerely, VDV_forever

to VDV_forever: First (and most importantly): I'm not picking on your words, and I don't want to. And I apologize if my words offended you in any way, I swear, I didn't mean to, and I definitely don't blame you for my mistake (not recording the skill tree), and I'm not taking out my frustration... With my post, I pursued two goals: 1) To show that the endless firing of a ballista is a bug. 2) To show that introducing such long battles could negatively affect the popularity of tournaments. And I only used my case as an example... Second: I completely agree with you about ArtMoney. Third: Still, I am against introducing such battles (1 fairy vs. 1000 zombies). And I believe that the organizer can achieve their goal without them (I described the methods in the first post). Fourth: Regarding training tournaments: maybe you are right, but as practice shows: combining many contradictory properties in any one product negatively affects the quality of that product. P.S. I'm not nitpicking words; I'm trying to find the right way... it's just that it doesn't always work out... Sincerely.

Greetings to all who love to invent a problem for themselves and then solve it! :)

I suggest looking at the questions raised in this thread from the perspective of logic and common sense.

1. First, what is a bug? How do we imagine it?
Originally, a bug is a failure in a program's algorithm, unintentionally (by mistake) allowed by the author of the algorithm.

- A fatal bug leads to an algorithm crash and is not considered by us in principle.

- A logical bug (these are exactly what we are considering here) does not lead to an algorithm failure, as it only distorts the final result of its work. Moreover, this distortion is visible only to the developer, because only they possess the information on exactly how a particular algorithm should work. The problem is finding out exactly what the developer intended to see as the result of the program's operation.

Example No. 1. The Ballista and its infinite turn.

The fact that the remaining number of shots is reflected does NOT mean that there must be a finite number of them. Perhaps the logical bug is precisely the fact of having a shot counter for the ballista, when the number was originally planned to be infinite. No one knows for sure exactly what the program developers wanted to see. So we can state that a bug exists, however, we will consider it a feature at least because the computer also uses it with no less efficiency, by the way... :) And therefore—I consider this acceptable.

Example No. 2. Doublecast.

In reality, this bug can also be considered not a bug because of its implementation without the use of third-party tools. It can be used by default by all players, ensuring equality for all tournament participants. This bug only gives an advantage over the poor computer, to which this trick is simply unavailable. But between players, it should cause no internal tension. However, since the developers consciously abandoned this feature, fixing it in later versions of the program, it suggests that they consider it a failure, and therefore—a bug. And here parity is broken—players on different versions of SoD are not in equal conditions. Therefore—taboo.

Example No. 3. Digging for the Grail in one day.

The game description (in context tooltips) clearly states that you cannot dig for the Grail in one day. Protection against such an attempt is set up in a hideous (someone said—simplified) manner. Smart people were able to bypass it. But this only speaks to their ingenuity and deep knowledge of the subject, which deserves loud applause and respect. Nevertheless, since the developers clearly indicated the prohibition of this method of obtaining the Grail, we will consider it a bug. And therefore—taboo.

Example No. 4. Fired—and into battle!

Nothing forbids firing and immediately rehiring a hero within one day. It is forbidden to move with this hero, as there is an obvious logical paradox—an infinite turn for the hero within one day. BUT: we pay our money for this—2500 gold for a standard (same for every hero) portion of movement in 2000 mp. Why a bug? Because it's not mentioned anywhere in the manual? Well, let's imagine for a minute that I found, say, on "AstralWizard," an interview with Gus Smestad himself regarding how by buying back a hero for 2500 gold we get a full movement reserve in return. Let's imagine the devs allowed this consciously. What next? Could a normal person actually say that it is no longer a bug and can be used? Because in this case, the very meaning of the game is lost, when a tank could essentially iron out the map in one day and finish everything very quickly... This is simply not interesting to the players themselves first and foremost. Just as if doublecast were infinite. In this case, the feature simply becomes a destroyer of all game intrigue. There is simply a gentleman's agreement here—to preserve the game intrigue by prohibiting the use of this pseudo-bug. It is impossible to verify.

2. Second, there is a solution to this trouble!

A group of enthusiasts is developing the TE project, in which they simply fixed all logical bugs of the game to avoid such own mishaps and disputes. By the way, many other features that we accept without regret are included among them. For example, heroes having fourth-level strike spells at the start—how is that not a logical bug in the generally accepted sense of the word? TE doesn't have this. Because TE is an addon for athlete-players.

We, however, are closer to amateurs, and therefore we use a program not very suitable for conducting fan tournaments, which is SoD. And so what? Playing hasn't become any less interesting. We all just make peace with the fact of possible unpunished cheating. He who truly finds this abhorrent does not play on SoD. He plays on TE. And those who came to the tournament not for interest, but for a prize place at any cost—are not that dangerous. A detected cheater will be banned—this is known. A solid player with a name will lose more from this than they would gain. A random cheater who won a prize in a tournament once will soon be forgotten by everyone—simply because no one competes with them... After all, we compete primarily with each other. It's doubtful that a normal person would put a system of cheating on stream for the sake of victory—it's too shaky an affair.

3. ArtMoney and its ilk.

Let's immediately distinguish the automation of a template cyclic process from an attempt to falsify it. I will express my opinion regarding the intricacies of programs like Hero-Digger (Geroyekopalka) and the wonder-program by the respected vbn.

- Hero-Digger is not a cheating program. You can definitely dig up any permitted hero in the tavern, spending a lot of time on s/l. Hero-Digger helps to do this faster. That's all. And conversely—any hero who, at the map author's discretion, is unavailable on the map is also unavailable for Hero-Digger. Everything is clean. No one will deceive anyone even if they want to.

- Shooting Automator—I don't exactly imagine how it will behave (unlike Hero-Digger, I have no experience working with it), but from the description, I understood that it simply generates a press of the "fire" key at the selected target, without taking part in controlling the behavior of the target itself. That is, if by some miracle the opponent manages to reach our fast unit, the program will not save the situation. Which means—everything is acceptable, because it's fair.

- ArtMoney. I'll say something heretical. If you use this program as a replacement for the two mentioned above, nothing terrible will happen. There is no difference between digging a hero with Hero-Digger or doing it, perhaps, faster, using ArtMoney.

There is only one significant BUT:
if Adele is forbidden from being summoned on the map by the map creator, then Hero-Digger won't help summon her. ArtMoney will summon her. Maybe not a very successful example, but the essence is the same—there is no guarantee that a player can correctly assess the 100% possibility of solving their task without using ArtMoney. If we know that a hero can be summoned (or, as an option, the battle is definitely won), then ArtMoney is not a hindrance. Here it's just time-saving and nothing more. But what if you are mistaken, and without knowing it (read—unintentionally) become a cheater? Who cares about this? I agree with Iron that cheating is a personal matter for each, and no one forces anyone to cheat using ArtMoney, only there is no protection mode against accidental cheating. That's all. :)

Solely for this reason, I am against the use of ArtMoney even with good intentions. Do not tempt those who are not tempted... It is an ungrateful business.

Summary.

1. Ballista—let it shoot.
2. Hero-Digger and Shooting Automator—no problems.
3. ArtMoney—definitely taboo.

And in general—if you play on SoD, it means the guarantee of a fair fight is not that important to you, because there is none and cannot be. This means you are simply a true fan of the game and primarily play for pleasure. Winning a tournament is not your only goal. Any winner, by default, is not considered a cheater. Whoever cares about exposing them—ask questions. If you fundamentally don't believe in the honesty of an opponent—"Heroes" has nothing to do with it.

As always, imho.

With respect to all who are interested in this opinion,
AmberSoler

Hello to all who enjoy creating problems for themselves and then solving them! :)

Some people have returned to Hollywood :) We are glad to hear that :)

Example No. 4. Run away – and into battle!
No one forbids you to run away and immediately hire a hero within one day. It is forbidden to use this hero, because there is a logical paradox – an infinite turn of the hero within one day. ...

Run away (bribe) - buy out - and into battle - this is allowed in the third game. It is forbidden to fire - buy out and into battle. Was there a typo, or did you mean specific versions of Heroes 1 and 2???

There is only one significant BUT:
if Adele is forbidden to be summoned on the map by the map creator, then HeroCop will not help to summon her. ArtMoney will. It may not be the best example, but the point is the same – there is no guarantee that the player will be able to correctly assess the one hundred percent possibility of solving his task without using ArtMoney. If we know that a hero can be summoned (or, as an option, the battle is definitely won), then ArtMoney does not interfere. Here, it is only a matter of saving time and nothing more. But what if you are wrong, and unknowingly (read – unintentionally) become a cheater? Who is interested in this? I agree with Iron that cheating is a personal matter for everyone, and no one forces anyone to cheat with the help of ArtMoney, only there is no protection against accidental cheating. That's all. :)

That is why I say that the battle should first be looped manually. If the player simply automates all battles based on the fact that he thinks they are won, then he will be caught on this. Randomness does not work here - they will tell him that he had to loop the battle, don't try to play the innocent :) You violated the rules - you did not loop the battle.

For this reason alone, I am against the use of ArtMoney, even with good intentions. Do not tempt those who have not been tempted... It is an ungrateful task.

Besides ArtMoney, there are other programs, or in secret from everyone, they write for themselves automatons like the vbn automaton and play quietly :)

3. ArtMoney – definitely a taboo.

If you like to forbid, first find ways to catch. Otherwise, all statements about catching boil down to the fact that sooner or later someone will be caught, no matter how long the rope is... We play for pleasure, although at the end of the game everyone torments each other, well, brother, how did you manage to complete it in 5 days :) and VDV examines saves and descriptions, all people are brothers, peace to the world, etc.

If it is important for someone to expose him, ask questions. If you do not believe in the opponent's honesty in principle, then "Heroes" has nothing to do with it.

I absolutely agree. Ask questions. And if the battle is long but it is passed and you can be sure of this yourself, then what difference does it make to you how it was passed :)
Sincerely, IronAxe.

Escaped (bought his way out) - bought him out - and into battle - this is allowed in the third game. It is forbidden: Fired - bought him out and into battle. Was it a typo, or did they mean specific versions of Heroes 1 and 2???

I meant dismissal.

That's why I'm saying that the battle should first be looped manually. ... You broke the rules - you didn't loop the battle.

There is no way to prove that the battle is looped. We do not know the mechanism of how the AI works. Just imagine that it has a principle built in - "after N turns in a loop, we change tactics," or something else... For example, we go to attack not the nearest unit, but the ballista...

In other words, if you have not encountered such a trick through experience, this does not prove that it cannot happen in principle... Therefore, it won't work... Please, simulate the entire battle from start to finish, but do not make the transition from start to finish just "because I am sure..."

Here, AmberSoler is back and has put everything in its place =))) respect +1
I agree with his opinion, and that's it =))

There is no way to prove that the battle is in a loop. We don't know how the AI works. Imagine that it has a principle programmed into it: "after N turns in a cycle, change tactics," or something else... For example, instead of attacking the nearest unit, it attacks a ballista...

There is a way to prove it. If I tell you that in a certain scenario, I can kill 100 creatures with one fairy, it means I can, and anyone else can do it or check to confirm (this applies if a "cheese" strategy is allowed, for example, like on Gorbik and Pool's portals). And if I can kill 1000 skeletons with one Cerberus, I will, and anyone can check and repeat it, no matter how the computer changes its tactics in this battle or how it changes the direction of movement. But if, as you say, a principle is programmed into the game, two times "ha-ha" (it's even better in the fourth game), then the player, if he is not sure if he has ever completed a battle of THIS type, the organizer and the players will quickly identify this battle from the description and say: "mate, in this battle, the computer may change tactics and go for the ballista, and you will lose." So there is nothing more to imagine.

In other words, if you haven't encountered this "trick" through experience, it doesn't mean that it can't happen in principle... Therefore, it won't work... Please, simulate the entire battle from start to finish, but don't make the transition from start to finish just "because I'm sure..."

I would gladly, but your opponent might not listen to you and your "trick" and conduct the battle as it should, create a description, and the result will be accepted. If I wasn't sure about this, I wouldn't say it. This has been tested on portals (not by me, but I was aware of it). AmberSoler, you're talking nonsense - any player, even in the third game, if he knows anything, will tell you that if he wants to and has a good computer, he will kill 1000 skeletons with one fairy in the third game, no matter how the computer changes tactics according to the principle that you just programmed into it. And in response to your "trick," I will say that the possibility of a battle with a ballista is PROVEN by the vbn automator. You didn't quite accurately describe how the automator works in your previous post. There, the sniper runs forward to the elementals and starts running from one point to another. The mouse clicks simulate the movement from one point to another. The elementals also run from one point to another. It was said that the automator will only work if the morale of your troops is neutral. You correctly noted that if something goes wrong and the computer changes tactics, the automator will glitch, and the battle will not be won. However, look at how many people used this automator in the tournament, and the computer did not change tactics for anyone; it just ran after the sniper, so keep your speculations to yourself. Now it's your turn to prove that the computer can change tactics at least once in this battle!!! If you prove it, then we can talk further, but if not, there's nothing to discuss. Your statement is unsubstantiated and based on an assumption, while my statement is based on PRACTICE, so it is not unsubstantiated. And also, this battle can be won even with high morale of your troops, but only in this case, the automator does not work, but manually, the battle is won, and accordingly, artmoney also works. Describe the tactics? You can check it yourself. Just when the sniper's morale drops, you need to press wait or skip turn and wait for the elementals to move towards you, and then repeat the cycle. The automator does not recognize this situation. If someone had completed the battle exactly like this using artmoney, they would have written down the tactics and said that they fought for 20 hours with breaks, not turning off the computer for days - check it to the point of exhaustion - the battle will be won, and you will not be able to determine how exactly he completed the battle, but even if you could, what then?? THE BATTLE IS STILL WON!