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To be honest, I think we should stop arguing about the economic development of the USSR compared to today's Russia, Ukraine, Belarus, etc. Like Alexey Panku, I also don't earn enough to buy a home, but that doesn't make the USSR better. It's more important to understand the ideological essence of the Soviet Union.
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These figures were taken by me from a textbook on history, authored by Doctors of Historical Sciences, Isupov and Kuznetsov. I know both of them personally; they are professional historians from the Institute of History of the Siberian Branch of the Russian Academy of Sciences and teach at Novosibirsk State University. I prefer to believe their data because you have not provided any other data.
My great-grandfather fought in the war, was captured, and escaped. And no one put him in a camp afterward; on the contrary, he was awarded. So, not everyone was imprisoned.
The question of the ideological essence of the USSR is very interesting. But the main thing that is often forgotten is that the ideology was not static but constantly changing. Take, for example, the dominant ideas of 1924, 1933, 1939, 1945, 1953, and 1956. They are radically different. As a rule, when analyzing the USSR, only data from the period of 1982-1989 is used. But this is a period of the most severe crisis. Let's then talk about the USA only during the Great Depression; that would be more objective. And here, take the data for the same year 1937: there was everything in the stores.
And one more question for you: who unleashed the repressions, and who was most involved in them?
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In 1937, was everything alright? And what exactly do you mean by "everything"? I'll look for some data; I won't argue without evidence. Repressions have always existed; the culprit is the system itself. Terror is the foundation of communism, and from the very beginning of the USSR's existence until its collapse, it was one of the most important factors. Lenin, Trotsky, Stalin (and the rest... except Gorbachev) – there was no difference in who was in power. They all used the same methods, so there's no need to blame only Stalin. Read Lenin's decrees and orders in the book that Slonysh criticized, and you'll understand everything.
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There are many works dedicated to the period of the 1920s and 1930s. I can recall two off the top of my head. One is "Stalin. Economic Revolution," but I don't remember the author's name, and the other is Zhukov's monograph "A Different Stalin." They provide figures from archival sources, not just pulled out of thin air. Also, put yourself in Lenin's and Stalin's shoes. The country is in ruins, and enemies are all around. What should they do? They could, of course, surrender to the mercy of the West. Or they could create a strong state. There was no other way.
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In reply to Берсерк
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Berserk;85860
Please read Lenin's decrees and orders in the book that Slonysh slandered.
...and you still can't manage to avoid personal attacks...
I'm asking you again: no need for insults... :smile42: Don't turn the discussion into a squabble.
In reply to AlexeyPank
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AlexeyPank;85752
Regarding Moscow, I don't understand. So, you think that when 80% of the financial capital is concentrated in one city, that's normal? And the people in the regions are ungrateful bastards who not only want to live a decent life but also call a thief a thief? Do you know that my salary is twice lower than the average? And the salary of my professors at the university is also below average. Where do these average figures come from then? There's this saying: "I ate two chickens, and you ate none. But on average, we ate one chicken each." I will keep criticizing Moscow until there is a fair redistribution. With my salary, I can't even afford rent, let alone pay for utilities. And I don't think that the financial situation in the regions has improved compared to the USSR. It's easy to talk about the growth of prosperity while sitting in Moscow.
I can criticize the USSR, but there are plenty of people criticizing it without me. It's just a pity that they don't provide a SINGLE figure, only emotions. I can prove anything with emotions. But do you know that in Stalin's camps, only 8-20% were political prisoners, the rest were criminals? And of these political prisoners, most were imprisoned for quite criminal offenses, such as terrorism or sabotage. All those "artists" who talk about how they were oppressed in the USSR were not ashamed to receive awards from the Soviet government and were not ashamed to promote the Soviet system. Now, Rostropovich, a laureate of the Lenin and Stalin Prize, who supported the collapse of the Union in 1991, has died. Why didn't he refuse the award in Soviet times out of solidarity with Pasternak and Solzhenitsyn?
I hate hypocrites!
And with my scholarship, I can't even afford lunch for a week! And my parents are barely making ends meet! In Moscow, we have prices that you can't even dream of!
If you can't afford rent, where do you get the internet, especially at night? Something doesn't add up...

According to my data, 80% were political prisoners. That's why I avoid using figures - they are all too different.

As for the "artists"... Don't exaggerate, okay?

Yes, it's a pointless topic... There's no point in arguing with people who, behind the voice of their momentary outrage, caused by minor life problems, idealize the most disgusting system in human history...
Instead of engaging in empty talk about the wonderful USSR and the bad, poor, and powerless Russian Federation, try to make life better here and now. In the end, it's in your power, and you don't need to blame the government for everything. If people are good, even a slave-owning system will be paradise.
С Пути сбивают мелкие достижения, а изощрённые суждения скрывают смысл слов. И вот уже возникают "правильное" и "неправильное"...
- Чжуан-цзы
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I have internet access because my mother pays for the apartment, and I live with her. But even though she earns a decent amount, she won't be able to afford to buy an apartment. I'll ask where you got the data about 80% of politicians. If you received it through your chakras, then the question is settled. As I see it, apart from me, no one here is providing any figures, so our argument is pointless. I can say that Christianity, and especially Orthodoxy, is the most disgusting religion because it leads people away from reality, promising them paradise after death. No facts, just emotions. I, for one, thought that after your question about sources, I was dealing with an expert, but it turns out I was wrong.
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In reply to Silvanis
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Silvanis;85880
There's no point in arguing with people who, behind the noise of their momentary outrage caused by minor life problems, idealize the most vile system in human history...
Dear Silvanis, you're exaggerating. You simply didn't live under Nero or Tiberius. :smile21: Just kidding.
But in any case, remember Nazi Germany and don't throw around such words.
Especially since you only know the USSR from the stories of those who were wronged by the Soviet regime. But notice that there is no regime that wouldn't offend anyone. And judging it based on the words of those who suffered is not objective. I, for one, lived in the USSR and saw with my own eyes the absence of many of the horrors that are now told about it.
By the way, I even read somewhere that a boy was taken "to the authorities" at school for wearing imported sneakers, allegedly for aiding capitalism... I would have believed it, but here's the problem - my mom, dad, me, and many of my acquaintances wore imported sneakers, jeans, and T-shirts... with the ABBA logo:smile36: ...oh, how I coveted such a T-shirt, but there were only adult sizes:smile36:
In short, a lot of nonsense is being written now about those times. Of course, we didn't have complete freedom of speech. But the US doesn't either. And no matter how much we admire the US here, with its economy, the decline of culture there is terrible (by the way, this is not just a Russian, "Soviet" opinion - look at how sarcastically Americans and their culture are portrayed in many European films). Meanwhile, we don't really have any other model to follow. We can't try to follow the path of Slovakia, for example - they emerged from socialism and built a "capitalism with a human face," but this is a small country with a completely different economy than ours. An elephant won't fit in a cat basket. So, either we will try to become the second most powerful player on the board, balancing the US, that is, we will also create a powerful, captivating ideology and come up with a "mission" for the country, or we will remain in the position of a market square, where developed countries come to sell their products, and we simply work as promoters in the branches of their shops.
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So, either we try to become the second most powerful player on the board, balancing the US, meaning we also create a powerful, captivating ideology and invent a "mission" for the country, or we will remain in the position of a marketplace where developed countries come to sell their products, and we merely work as promoters in branches of their stores.
The flag is in your hands. Your "Project" won't go any further than words on the forum.
However, people of your type need "captivating" ideologies, so if you want, I can come up with a couple for you. Maybe after the second collapse, people will stop reaching for such ideologies. No matter how many facts you and Alexei present to us now, the USSR was what it was, and your position can be understood. It's like a provincial person who lived and saw things. And will they show you much? Or is everything done openly? Your main argument is that you lived and didn't see such things. What about decrees, orders, archives, statistics? (Alexei, if I have time, I will bring you facts; I don't have much internet access myself right now). I see your angry face, dear Slonysh, so I will retreat in advance and won't argue anymore. Nor will I write.
In reply to AlexeyPank
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AlexeyPank;85885
I have internet because my mother pays for the apartment, and I live with her. But even though she earns a decent amount, she won't be able to afford an apartment.
I'll ask where you got your data about the 80% of political figures. If you received it through your chakras, then the question is settled.
As far as I can see, no one else here is providing any figures, so our argument is pointless. I can say that Christianity, and especially Orthodoxy, is the most disgusting religion because it leads people away from reality, promising them paradise after death. No facts, just emotions.
I, in turn, thought that after your question about sources, I was dealing with an expert, but it turns out I was wrong.
And your data comes from sources like these; I quote:
"1. Zdrov, "State Capitalism and Modernization in the USSR."
2. Zinoviev, many works, in particular "Catastroika," "The Collapse of Russian Communism."
3. Kagarlitsky, "Marxism. Not Recommended for Study."
4. Lenin, Complete Works.
5. Stalin, Complete Works.
6. World History, in particular volumes 9-13.
7. Numerous readily available information on the internet (if needed, I can provide specific links).
8. Materials from lectures on the history of the USSR by Doctors of Historical Sciences Kuznetsov, Isupov, and Solovyova."
Isn't that funny? Would Lenin and Stalin write anything bad about the USSR in their books? And what is this "World History"? What year and what publisher? I'm willing to bet it's from the Soviet era. The only thing I can say is that I don't know anything about the lectures by Kuznetsov, Isupov, and Solovyova... But I'll try to find them online.
And how can I take you seriously as an expert after this? An expert differs from an amateur in that they consider the problem from different angles, and not just from the one that they, for some unclear reason, like the most.

The attack on Orthodoxy is a rather crude personal attack, and it doesn't do you any credit. I expressed my opinion more or less on the topic, calling the USSR the most disgusting state (in my opinion, it was even worse than Nazi Germany - in the 1930s, of course, not in the 1960s or 1970s); Orthodoxy is somewhat out of place here...

And in Moscow now, at best, 2-3% of the population can afford to buy an apartment, because housing prices here are simply insane.
С Пути сбивают мелкие достижения, а изощрённые суждения скрывают смысл слов. И вот уже возникают "правильное" и "неправильное"...
- Чжуан-цзы
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In reply to Берсерк
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Berserk;85896
Here, take this. Your "project" won't go any further than words on the forum.
Still, people of your type need "intoxicating" ideologies, so if you want, I can come up with a couple for you. Maybe after the second collapse, people will stop clinging to such ideologies. No matter how many facts you and Alexei present to us now, the USSR was what it was, and your position can be understood. It's like a provincial person who lived and saw things. And will they show you much? Or is everything done in a showy way? Your main argument is that you lived and didn't see it. What about decrees, orders, archives, statistics? (Alexei, I'll bring you facts when I have time; I don't have much internet access right now). I see your angry face, dear Slonysh, so I'll back down in advance and won't argue anymore. Or write.
Dear Berserk, aren't you tired of it? "Face," "provincial"... Maybe you really are a berserk? You know, people probably got into that state under the influence of something...
Even if I were a provincial, the fact that you use this word as an insult shows snobbery and ridiculous arrogance. But I must disappoint you; your insight has failed you. Next time, when you want to guess someone's place of residence, just take a peek at their passport – it will be more reliable.
I'll note that nothing written in this thread is more absurd than your words:
Berserk;85896
No matter how many facts you and Alexei present to us now, the USSR was what it was, and your position can be understood. It's like a provincial person who lived and saw things. And will they show you much? Or is everything done in a showy way? Your main argument is that you lived and didn't see it. What about decrees, orders, archives, statistics?
in this topic. You might as well say, "I'll show you an archive." If your archives say that human sacrifices to Jupiter were practiced in the USSR, I will still rely on my personal experience. As Woland said, "He almost drove me crazy by proving to me that I don't exist!"
And if you had read even one of my posts carefully, you might have noticed that I am not referring to what I "didn't see," as you put it, but to what I did see. And if I saw that even schoolchildren told jokes about the Politburo (out loud, not secretly in basements), then it's useless to wave documents in front of me about how people were imprisoned in the USSR for "words in the toilet."
As for your nonsense about "my Project," I advise you to come out of your berserk state and not attribute political ambitions to me.
I've already repeated to you three times in this thread that resorting to personal attacks in a political discussion is rude; now I'll add that it's also stupid. If I am talking abstractly about a state system, then there is no need to launch into tirades about what ideology is needed for "people of my type" and what "project" I have. I'm not discussing my type, my ideals, or my shoe size here. Focus on the topic of the USSR, not on guesses about the personal preferences of forum users.
And if in the first lines of your post, I simply thought that you absolutely didn't understand what and why I was saying, then by the last lines, I had an interesting thought about why you wrote all this. With your rude, familiar words about "face," did you want to provoke me? Well, don't stop; move on to "legs" and other body parts. Maybe you'll immediately convince everyone of your position. Besides, the discussion would be much more boring without a villain-provocateur.:smile33:
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Sylv, if you read carefully, you’ll see that I provided additional sources after my initial post. But it’s much easier to attribute words to your opponent and then “expose” them. I repeat, you haven’t provided a single fact, a single real source. I used the example with Orthodoxy solely to illustrate the essence of your position – unsubstantiated criticism. And there’s no need to be offended; I understand that you don’t like hearing lies about your faith. And who does? You are also only making unsubstantiated claims, which I can only interpret as lies. I understand that a professional historian’s knowledge of history can never compare to that of psychologists, mathematicians, or chemists, but I will still try. You know, there’s a subject called “Source Studies,” which deals with external and internal criticism of sources. I studied this subject and use the skills I acquired. As I understand it, you rely solely on what liberal propaganda has instilled in you. Let’s then study the history of the USA based on the memoirs of Native Americans, the words of Sacco and Vanzetti, and the statements of African Americans from the 18th and 19th centuries. You only present the opinions of one side, without attempting to criticize them. This is a standard viewpoint of an ordinary person who always thinks they know everything better than everyone else. The USSR was not a paradise, but it was not hell either. It was a great country that, in 20 years, traversed a path that Europe took 200 years to complete. Yes, there were victims, but remember the enclosure movement in England – isn’t that a form of collectivization? Your words about the most disgusting system resemble the cry of a woodlouse on which a ray of light has fallen, and it perceives that light as something repulsive. And now, forget everything I said; it is not an argument. I am merely demonstrating your manner of conducting a discussion.
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Is "The Lord of the Rings" an unpopular book? And regarding people escaping into quasi-reality, yes, it's important not to get too carried away with it, as we can say that we also escape into quasi-reality when reading "The Lord of the Rings" or playing "Heroes of Might and Magic." The main thing is that it doesn't interfere with normal life. Otherwise, some people escape into the quasi-reality of Middle-earth, and then even that doesn't satisfy them, and they move on to the world of Nienna (already re-imagined by Tolkien).
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Alexey, you are talking about some numbers, providing some numbers, but forgetting the question that you yourself put in the thread title. The only number you can provide here based on the thread title is the quantity of USSRs. Moreover, you must provide this number (based on your own position regarding the clear argumentation of our dispute) by relying on facts, i.e., some statistical source.
Based on the above, I propose to close this thread, because there was only one USSR. And to keep this thread closed until Alexey Punk provides a link to a source stating that there were no USSRs at all or that there were more than one (two, three or more).
In the meantime, I suggest creating a new thread where we could discuss what the Soviet Union actually was as:
a) a socio-economic entity (please excuse the term);
b) a political entity, etc.
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And if people lived in "one" country, but everything was different for them, is it still the same country? In my USSR, there was no shortage of goods before perestroika, there were no unjustified persecutions, and there were social programs. But in the USSR, in which some other forum members lived, there was nothing, queues were 10 km long, and people were imprisoned for a word spoken under the covers to themselves. And how can you say that it was the same country after that? And for some, the USSR is neither one nor the other. So, it turns out to be yet another country. We are not considering just one aspect, such as the outline of the country on the map, but also the mental perception.

And regarding the socio-economic and political structure, could you be more specific?
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