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Posts from Necropolis versus Orcs.

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For Orcs, it's not a problem; they have a morale cloak, plus leadership, plus War Cry.
And again, this is if the hero joins the battle before the Orc Chieftains and Goblins. Here, you also need to consider who has more artifacts for initiative.
When a dispute arises, mathematics comes into play, in this case, simple arithmetic.
How much morale will an Orc, say, level 35, add to his troops?
+3 from Leadership
+4-5 from artifacts (+2-3 if he wants the Dwarven Helmet)
+5 from War Cry
+2 from the hero and troops themselves
Total: 14-15 (12-13), and the requirement to spend the hero's turn every 3 rounds.
Luck will be 2-4 (0-2) at the same time.

How much will a Necromancer reduce it by:
-3 from Banshee Scream on Deirdre with a mini-set
-4-6 from artifacts
-6 from Creature Ability (CA)
Total: -13-15 Morale, -5 Luck

After offsetting each other, morale is approximately at zero, and Luck is slightly negative. And then, one attack from the Draconians (just one, Karl!) on the Cyclops, and they are guaranteed to take -5 Morale/Luck.

Moreover, it's not so critical whether the hero managed to join the battle before the first round of Shaman spells. You cast a mass haste spell, the spell wears off, and the Necromancer goes before the Goblins, casts Subjugate on the Chieftains or someone else, and the battle begins.
I tried to engage in a duel for Haggeesh, gave the Cyclops Fury, and tried to damage them with Vittorio's troops. 70% was absorbed, Haggeesh has Skilled Blood Fury, and nothing changed.
The statement about the Fury Shield nerf is not even worth discussing - 0.6 on Expert difficulty. It has been tested many times, and the information is in the manual for 3.1.
If you didn't succeed, there are 3 possibilities:
1. You are not playing on version 3.1.
2. You were relying on the estimated damage calculated by the game, and did not calculate it yourself honestly, taking into account all abilities. The game often displays inaccurate damage values. You need to calculate it yourself and then look at the log; everything is displayed correctly there.
3. You made a mistake in your calculations. No offense.
True, I'm not sure how much damage he managed to do this way, but there were 350 Draconians or a little more, and I had just over 200 Cyclops.
350 vs. 200 is almost an exponential increase. If the ratios were similar at other levels, then the Necromancer will have a very hard time in such a battle. And why it turned out that way - whether it's the map or the opponent didn't play very well - you know better. A standard, average random distribution should result in approximately 600 Draconians against 200 Cyclops; the ratios should be even worse at all other levels.
In reply to Fireball
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Fireball
When there's a dispute, mathematics comes into play, in this case, simple arithmetic.
How much morale will an Orc, say, level 35, add to his troops?
+3 from Leadership
+4-5 from artifacts (+2-3 if he wants a Dwarven helmet)
+5 from a war cry
+2 from the hero and his troops
Total: 14-15 (12-13), and the requirement to spend the hero's turn every 3 rounds.
Luck will be 2-4 (0-2)

How much will a Necromancer reduce it by:
-3 from Banshee's Cry on Deidre with a mini-set
-4-6 from artifacts
-6 from a spell
Total: -13-15 Morale, -5 Luck

After offsetting, the morale is approximately at zero, and Luck is slightly negative. And then, one attack from the Draconians (just one, Karl!) on the Cyclops, and they are guaranteed to lose -5 Morale/Luck

Moreover, it's not so critical whether the hero managed to cast the spell before the first weakening of the shamans. You cast a mass speed-up spell, the weakening disappears, and the Necromancer moves before the Goblins, casts Subjugation on the leaders or someone else, and it all starts.
This is if the game is played with Deidre. Dragons will lose a lot if they attack the Cyclops. Well, in theory, you can create negative morale, but that's not a guarantee of victory.
You can also attack the Goblins a second time.

Yes, my opponent didn't level up very well as a Necromancer, and I was only playing Orcs for the second or third time. So who knows how it will turn out in a battle between pros.

Added 2 minutes ago
Fireball
What was said about the nerf of the Shield of Fury is not even up for discussion - 0.6 on expert. It has been tested many times, the information is in the manual for 3.1
If something didn't work for you, there are 3 options:
1. You are not playing on 3.1
2. You were relying on the assumed damage calculated by the computer, and not calculating it yourself honestly and taking into account all abilities. The program often writes nonsense in the damage. You need to calculate it yourself, and then look at the log, everything is displayed correctly there.
3. You made a mistake in the calculations. No offense.
It seems the problem was with the patch itself. I tried reinstalling the game and downloading the patch again, now on the expert difficulty, Wrath of Blood absorbs 60%, as you said. I have no idea why it was different, most likely I downloaded a buggy patch that time.

Added 3 minutes ago
Fireball
350 to 200 is almost an increase. If there were similar ratios at other levels, then the Necromancer will have a hard time in such a battle. And why it turned out that way - the map is like that or the opponent didn't play very well - you know better. A standard average random should lead to approximately 600 Draconians to 200 Cyclops, and the ratios should be even worse at all other levels.
I don't remember about the other troops, maybe there was a similar situation.
Although there is also a trick that you can collect a full set of Dragon artifacts, and then +1 level per day at level 7. In this regard, the Orcs will have an advantage if both he and the Necromancer collect it. The Cyclops is much more powerful. And there was a good chance to collect it on that map. It was possible to do it for the Demons on that map as well.
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That's if the game is played as Deidra.
SA against orcs is only viable as Deidra, otherwise what's the point. An exception is having many castles and a mentor; then Lucia and hordes of princes could work, but only as an option.
Dragons will lose a lot if they charge at cyclops.
1. I don't care about the dragons; before 3.1 they weren't even built in the late game for financial reasons—it was easier to buy level 6 units from other castles.
2. And will they lose them? The retaliation is negated by ghosts with a 50% probability without punishment; there will be no retaliation with a probability of roughly 70%+, if the dragons' turn comes after the princes. Their initiative will be close, so they'll move consecutively. At worst, there are liches who are almost certainly blocked by that point, and therefore useless.
3. Dragons aren't saved; their job is to bite down all the key stacks.
4*. Need I remind you that banshees hit every stack adjacent to the bitten ones for 30 damage each, with no retaliation?
Well, in theory, you can create negative morale, but that's still no guarantee of victory.
-5 Luck/Morale on the orc's key stacks even at an early stage of the battle = victory for any race. Cyclopes move rarely, hit weakly, and their rage wears off quickly.
Goblins can be pushed a second time.
That is far from always the case. I'll use your own battle as an example: the chieftains moved before the hero, but the goblins had to be pushed. Standard layout: chieftains have higher initiative than the hero, while goblins' is comparable (the staff clearly worked to cut artifact bonuses to initiative). Please read the logic carefully and you'll understand what I mean.
By the time the Necromancer hero moves, it's already known whether the chieftains and goblins failed their morale check. Let's consider the options.
1. No one failed morale.
Then the hero has time to drop the mark with mass haste and move BEFORE even the chieftains, casting Subjugation on them. There's an even cooler option: if the initiative on the chieftains shows 11-12 (or less), you'll have time to cast Shout, mass haste, and Subjugation before their turn and the goblins' turn, obviously. Result: Subjugation lands in the first conditional round.
2. Morale check passed for chieftains, failed for goblins.
Immediately cast Shout. The hero's and chieftains' initiative will roughly equalize, but the chieftains will almost certainly move earlier next time due to the previously accumulated difference. There's no point in pushing the goblins; the mark is still working. Here, you either accept the scenario as in the point above, or press the Wait button and hope for RNG that you move before the hero again—fractional initiative values aren't displayed, so it's not exactly known. However, this won't delay Subjugation for long, since there will be no more positive morale.
Result: Subjugation lands in either the first or second round.
3. Morale check failed for chieftains, passed for goblins.
The hardest scenario to calculate. Shout comes first, but I can't say how many rounds before Subjugation lands. It might be the first if the gobs move earlier after morale than the hero does after Shout. Or it could be significantly later. However, the probability of such a layout is 1 in 4, and the probability of a truly bad outcome within that is roughly 1 in 2-4. Total: about 10% chance of problems with Subjugation.
4. Morale check passed for chieftains and passed for goblins. After Shout, the task boils down to point 1, just shifted by 0.5 rounds.

What could ruin all these reflections? The interference of a Barbarian hero; he can also push. There are more degrees of freedom, it's hard to calculate, so it's tedious. A rough prediction: it won't be easy for the Necro to drop the mark, which means it will take a long time.
But another question immediately arises: what will the cyclopes do without being pushed by the hero and chieftains, with their pathetic initiative, speed of 4, and morale/luck of -5? Correct: take a long time to walk and die quickly.
Yes, then my opponent didn't build up their Necromancer the best way, and I was only playing as orcs for the second or third time. So who knows how a battle between pros will turn out.
Everything we've been discussing here at length and tediously is something a pro would estimate in a couple of seconds and execute.
It seems it was the patch itself. I tried reinstalling the game and downloading the patch again, and now at expert Blood Rage absorbs 60%, as you said. No idea why it was different, most likely I downloaded some glitched patch that time.
Well, it's great that it's sorted out. But you understand that the damage hitting your orc through rage needs to be multiplied by (0.35/0.2)=1.75. That's a pretty significant correction that could have changed the outcome, or might not have.
Although there's another trick: you can collect a full dragon set and then get +1 7th lvl per day. In this regard, the orcs will have an advantage if both he and the necro collect it. The cyclops is far more powerful. And on that map, there was a good chance to collect it. I managed it as demons on the same map.
If the dragon set is collected, you place 2 stacks of shamans and 4 chieftains of 60 each. The hero is given tactics, speed aura, etc. Cyclopes tear everyone apart, regardless of race and the skill level of players on both sides. Fans of the mentioned "mad rush" tactic will weep with joy.
And only one question remains: why play a map where the outcome is known in advance and doesn't depend on the skill level? All races can be sorted by the strength of their 7th level unit from the start, and you don't even have to worry about it.

Summarizing the last ten posts in the thread:
When playing the late game in intermediate layouts (where the Necromancer has a meat advantage, but not a total one), "shaman wars" are the deciding factor.
The Necromancer must think in advance how to drop the mark and/or quickly wipe out the shamans, and the orc how to maintain the mark, pushing the cyclopes along the way, and protect the shamans.
Whoever handles their task better will very likely win.
In reply to Fireball
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Fireball
Sorcery vs. Orcs only works for Deidra; otherwise, what's the point? The exception is if you have many Castles and a Mentor; then, use Lucy and hordes of Princes, but even that is just an option.
Deidra simply doesn't scale skills with levels. When you reach 30+ levels, it's better to choose those who receive a bonus every level or few levels.

Added 2 minutes ago
Fireball
1. Dragons aren't a pity; before version 3.1, they weren't even built in the late game due to financial considerations. It's easier to buy 6th-level units from other Castles.
2. Will they be lost? The counterattack is negated by ghosts with a 50% chance, without any consequences. There will be no counterattack with a probability of approximately 70+%, if the Dragons' turn is after the Princes'. They will have similar initiative and will move in succession. In the worst case, there are almost certainly blocked Liches at that point, which means they are useless.
3. Dragons are not protected; their task is to quickly eliminate all key stacks.
4. And we shouldn't forget that Banshees deal 30 damage each to every stack against the bitten neighbors, without a counterattack, right?
In principle, yes, they are not the most important stack there.

Added 3 minutes ago
Fireball
-5 Luck/Morale on key Orc stacks in the early stages of the battle = victory for any faction. Cyclops move rarely, hit weakly, and Fury wears off quickly.
There's a lot of randomness here. Sometimes a small negative value triggers often, and sometimes the opposite. I've had cases where a spell didn't trigger six times in a row against an enemy hero, and he only had magical resistance, meaning only 15%, which means one out of six or seven should trigger.

Added 8 minutes ago
Fireball
This is not always the case. I'll use your battle as an example: the Chieftains moved before the hero, but the Goblins had to be brought up. This is a standard scenario: the Chieftains have more initiative than the hero, and the Goblins have comparable initiative. (The Staff clearly reduced the initiative bonuses of artifacts). Please read the logic carefully, and you'll understand what I mean.
At the time of the Necropolis hero's turn, it is already known whether the Chieftains and Goblins have been demoralized. Let's consider the options.
1. No one was demoralized.
Then, the hero can cast Mass Haste and move BEFORE even the Chieftains, casting Subjugation on them. There is an even better option: if the initiative on the Chieftains is displayed as 11-12 (or less), you can cast Shout, Mass Haste, and Subjugation before their turn and the Goblins' turn, of course. As a result, Subjugation will take effect in the first round.
2. Morale on the Chieftains, no morale on the Goblins.
Immediately cast Shout. The hero's and Chieftains' initiative will be approximately equal, but the Chieftains will almost certainly move next, due to the previous accumulated difference. There is no point in bringing up the Goblins; the spell is still active. Either accept the situation as in the previous point or press the Wait button and hope that you will move before the hero again; fractional initiative values are not displayed, and this is not well known. However, this will only delay Subjugation for a short time, because
there will be no positive morale.
As a result: Subjugation will take effect either in the first or second round.
3. No morale on the Chieftains, morale on the Goblins.
This is the most difficult option to calculate. The first thing will be Shout, but I can't say how many rounds it will take for Subjugation to take effect. It may be in the first round if the Goblins move before the hero after morale. Or it may be much later. However, the probability of this scenario is 1 in 4, and the probability of a very bad outcome within it is approximately 1 in 2-4. As a result: about 10% of problems with Subjugation.
4. Morale on the Chieftains, morale on the Goblins. After Shout, the task is reduced to point 1, but with a shift of 0.5 rounds.

What can ruin all these arguments? The intervention of a Barbarian hero, because he can also speed things up. The degrees of freedom increase, and it becomes difficult to calculate, so I'm too lazy. A rough forecast is that it will be difficult for the hero to cast the spell, and therefore it will take a long time.
But another question immediately arises: what will the Cyclops do without the hero and Chieftains speeding them up, with their miserable initiative, speed of 4, and morale/luck of -5? That's right, they will walk for a long time and die quickly.
In general, it's logical, but there are other factors that can play a role: who has more artifacts for initiative, whether magical resistance will trigger if the Orc has it. What if Subjugation fails one or more times due to magical resistance? Heroes are such that much depends on luck. If the Orcs are not lucky, then this will not be in their favor.

Added 1 minute ago
Fireball
Here's what we've been discussing for a long time, a pro will figure it out in a couple of seconds and do it.
Yes, there are those who calculate everything on the fly.

Added 1 minute ago
Fireball
And it's great that we figured it out. But you understand that the damage that your Orc received through Fury needs to be multiplied by (0.35/0.2) = 1.75. This could have been a significant correction to the outcome, or it might not have been.
The outcome would have been the same, but more troops would have been lost.

Added 4 minutes ago
Fireball
If you have a Dragon set, then you place 2 stacks of Shamans, 4 Chieftains of 60 each. The hero gets tactics, speed aura, etc. Cyclops tear everyone apart, regardless of the faction and the level of players on both sides. Fans of the mentioned "frenzy" tactic are delighted.
And there is only one question left: why play a map where the outcome is known in advance and does not depend on the level of play? All factions can be initially sorted by the strength of level 7 and not worry.
I didn't come up with this. I'm not a fan of such cheats in Heroes; I prefer when everything is balanced in the factions, but I guess I'm unlikely to see that.
This rework in the undead should also be limited, a limit should be imposed, like, for example, with preparation in humans, because sometimes it turns out to be completely absurd.
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For humans, upgrading units is incredibly expensive, and I practically never used it. There were always enough troops anyway. But converting units into undead – that’s a huge bonus, very often. Some even think this option is cheating, but since it exists, it must be used. :rolleyes:
Просто мне нравятся брюнетки...Поэтому и - Лукреция :rolleyes: Асха всё обращает во благо (с).:cool:
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Mortulus
By the way, Hitenran is very effective against Orcs, in case you didn't know.
Not just against Orcs.
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Recently, I played a late-game match with a friend. I was playing as a Necromancer (Lucretia) and he was playing as an Orc (Hagesh), both with Creature Affinity (CA). The Orc couldn't handle my vampires under the effects of Vampirism and Heavenly Shield. And that's even without me using the Dominate skill.
In reply to Dagonet
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Dagonet
Recently, I played a late-game match with a friend. Necromancer (Lucretia) against an Orc (Hagesh), both with Creature Attack (CA). The Orc couldn't handle the vampires under the effects of Vampirism and Heavenly Shield. And that's despite the fact that I didn't even use Dominate.

In my opinion, Necropolis shouldn't have too many problems against Stronghold. There is, however, one nuance that I personally haven't encountered, namely: how dangerous Orcish Anti-Magic and Anti-Chaos are to Necromancers in such a situation. Because, in general, the main focus is on spells that affect a large number of units, if we put it broadly and roughly. With Magic skill of 30-40 or higher, this is effective. And in general, here's what helps, of course:
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Просто мне нравятся брюнетки...Поэтому и - Лукреция :rolleyes: Асха всё обращает во благо (с).:cool:
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I'll add based on my own experience... I don't recommend taking Free Cyclops for long campaigns.

I remember an Archangel taunting me... two of them attacking my 200+ Cyclops.
They didn't do any damage... mine hit them with clubs, and... my 1000+ Centaurs went to the afterlife.
I was just speechless!
Now I take Bloodeyes.


Added 5 minutes later
For those who still prefer Free Cyclops:
Don't place them next to your own troops.
Freedom, in the context of Cyclops, is a very "peculiar" thing.
In reply to Azmadon
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Ismail
I'll add based on my sad experience... I don't recommend taking Free Cyclops for long campaigns...

I remember an archangel teasing me... two of them attacked my 200+ Cyclops...
they didn't do any damage... mine hit them with clubs, and... my 1000+ centaurs went to the afterlife...
I was just speechless!
Now I take Bloodeyes...

Added 5 minutes later
for those who still prefer Free Cyclops...
never place them next to your own troops...
Freedom in the concept of a Cyclops is a very "peculiar" thing.

It's simply important to plan the arrangement. I place the Free Cyclops in the farthest corner, next to goblins, and even further away, the Daughters of the Sky. So that both can effectively use the goblins as bait. And I usually place centaurs at the opposite end of the "board." Or, in general, for any faction, I spread out the available ranged units to different ends.
Просто мне нравятся брюнетки...Поэтому и - Лукреция :rolleyes: Асха всё обращает во благо (с).:cool:
In reply to Azmadon
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Ismail
I'll add based on my own experience... I don't recommend using Free Cyclops in long campaigns.
I don't use them either, as they cause more harm than good.

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