Appeals Committee. Disputed situations in tournaments. — Tournament Committee

In reply to wowa

Heroin_HP

10 years ago

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wowa

question: what should be done in a similar situation if blue had won?

Definitely - blue loses.

In reply to Heroin_HP

wowa

10 years ago

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Heroin_HP

Definitely, blue loses.

not everything is so clear-cut))

Dirty_Player

It's hard to say without a save file, it's better to upload the save.

you can just post a picture so we don't have to dig through it))

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scorp

10 years ago

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isn't it the case that the path is generated through buggy passages?
- well, what else can you do if there's no guard or any kind of patrol on the road or nearby (if you could see the guard on the off-road path from a vantage point, for example - you'd need to look at the save file), without a vantage point, I would just walk along the road.

Mizrael

10 years ago

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And not a single view did the blue players have? Regarding the path through the wood mine, am I the only one bothered by the thought that when heading to the center here (as the blue players thought), the red players didn't clear the wood pile from the path and consistently lose movement points there? Again, if the red players went that way, did they really go around the damn swordsmen and lose movement points on the sand? If there is no clear evidence that ГО has been destroyed by the opponent (saw the fact of breakthrough, caught sight of his heroes at that respawn by viewing, has a photographic memory and noticed that resources started disappearing from that respawn), then the player has no right to enter there. The blue players violated the rule of passage between zones on Jebus Cross; in case of their victory - tech loss. It's like the Stinger-Maretti situation: I had a hunch that Stinger could have slipped away to that respawn, but there was no way to prove it. You can go there based on intuition, but if he's not there = tech loss.

In reply to scorp

Dirty_Player

10 years ago

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Judging by the screenshot and the pile of wood lying on the path, this is definitely not the Red faction's native spawn point. However, it's not entirely clear whether there was a Guard of Order there. Personally, as a judge, I would allow passage to this neutral spawn point, because it's silly not to use the road if it exists.

Added 2 minutes later

Mizrael

This is like the Stinger-Marelli situation; I had a feeling Stinger might have moved to that spawn point, but there was no way to prove it. You can go there based on a hunch, but if he's not there, it's a technical loss.

This is completely different. In the game, Maretti had the opportunity to break the Guard of Order and pass through. Here, no matter how hard you try, there's no way to enter through this passage.

Mizrael

10 years ago

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There is a path, but no guards are visible: it might be broken, it might have been shifted due to the quirks of the generator, or it might be a bug. There is no proof that it is broken, so don't assume it's impassable.

In reply to Mizrael

Heroin_HP

10 years ago

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Mizrael

If there is no clear evidence that the Guild of Outcasts has been destroyed by an opponent, then the player does not have the right to enter it.

Couldn't have said it better myself....

Added 2 minutes later

wowa

it's not that simple))

Yes, it's definitely straightforward.

In reply to Mizrael

wowa

10 years ago

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Mizrael

And not a single view from the blue player? About passing through the wood mine, did it only bother me that when moving to the center here (as the blue player thought), the red player didn't clear the wood pile from the road and consistently loses movement points there? Again, if the red player went that way, did they really go around the damned swordsmen and lose movement on sand? If there is no clear evidence that the ГО has been destroyed by the opponent (saw the fact of a breakthrough, spotted their heroes on that respawn via a view, has a photographic memory and noticed that resources started disappearing from that respawn), then the player has no right to enter there. The blue player violated the rule of passage between zones on Jebus Cross; if they win, it's a technical loss. It's like the Stinger-Maretti situation; I had a feeling Stinger might have slipped off to that respawn, but there's no proof. You can go there on a hunch, but if he's not there = tech loss.

an expert view could only have been of earth; there was no air or basic view
and what would the views have said? that this is not the native red respawn? there were no colored mines on the right; they might not have been taken, just like the wood, which can be flown over instead of spending movement to capture it; the swordsmen were also flown over back then — let's say it was the last second of the timer; hitting them would mean staying there due to extra clicks, whereas this way you advance further — and at that moment both players were indeed burning the timer down to zero!
also note the unpicked free mercury, it lies right on the road to the top-left of the center dungeon — but there shouldn't be free stuff, so something must have been broken there, right? that means the red player definitely went/flew above the dungeon, BUT: beyond the top edge of the screen lay the КЗ, which the blue player successfully farmed, and from this the most likely conclusion is: the red player didn't go up, but slipped off to the right
assuming more exotic things is much less realistic, and they'd hardly even come to mind!... and besides — here comes the blue player, chasing what they think is the red player, spending precious movement, and boom!.. a passage without a guard, but with a pile of wood! are they supposed to turn back because of a suspicion of a bug? such a thing simply wouldn't occur to them, especially when the timer is practically at zero
so I personally agree with Dirty_Player's stance:

Dirty_Player

Personally, as a judge, I would allow passage to that neutral respawn, because it's stupid not to walk on a road if it exists.

zoog

10 years ago

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*Now it’s clear). But two things are certain: even a non-expert scan shows quite accurately where the opponent’s respawn is (it can/should still be used on week 1), and the sawmill in the screenshot is clearly a bugged passage.

Added after 5 minutes

it’s foolish not to walk along the road if it exists.

The rules of Jebus Cross explicitly forbid using bugged passages until the corresponding ГО has been breached.

In reply to zoog

wowa

10 years ago

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zoog

The sawmill in the screenshot is clearly a bugged passage.
Jebus Cross rules explicitly forbid using bugged passages until the corresponding ГО is broken through.

With all the context, this might be understandable now
The key here is whether Blue was aware of this during the game.
And if he (almost) certainly was not aware, what kind of referee sanctions could be applied in a similar situation in the future?
Got an answer.

Yes, from now on I should pay more attention to mines near passages))
But then what should one do if they see such a roadside oddity? Interrupt the game, send the save file to the referees, and demand a replay if the passage is bugged?

IMHO, that reeks of absurdity. It would be simpler to allow it — specifically in a similar situation, not to be confused with others that might be similar but have different initial premises.
For example, in that textbook case, Maretti did not run around the standing ГО to pursue Stinger, whereas here there was no ГО at all

zoog

10 years ago

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Now, with all the context, it might be understandable.

I'm going to disagree – the mine is really an eyesore, and viewing it in the middle or end of the first map is often used. Although, without a save (and what's the problem with uploading it?), I can't guarantee it – does that mean the red creature's spawn point, to which it returned, is located to the left and below?

In reply to zoog

Dirty_Player

10 years ago

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zoog

The rules of Jebus Cross unequivocally forbid using bugged passages until the corresponding GO is broken.

I don't know about others, but I wouldn't dare call the only road from the spawn a bugged passage. Yes, a mine. So what? Couldn't it have generated like that without a bug?

Wicc

10 years ago

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In my opinion, the screenshot clearly shows that this is not a red spawn point. A pile of logs on the road, pushing aside a mountain of rocks (with no grassy obstacles along the path) – all signs point to a bugged passage leading to a corner spawn point.

I could still allow for the possibility of leniency towards a newbie if they play the innocent, but if there's even a minimally experienced player, then it's a complete fail.

In reply to Wicc

wowa

10 years ago

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Wicc

In my opinion, the screenshot clearly shows that this is not a red player's spawn point. A pile of logs on the road, with mountains of obstacles (there are no grassy obstacles along the path) – all the signs point to a bugged path leading to a corner spawn.

I can still allow for the possibility of leniency towards a newbie if they play the innocent, clueless girl act, but if there's even a minimally experienced player, then it's a complete fail.

It's clear that it's not a red player's spawn point; the question is whether a red player has run through there before, or not? And the latter is unlikely to occur to not only a newbie, but also to a player, even an experienced one, but who only has experience playing on Xelha, for example – where people often ignore the (non-)blocking of path guards... even on SM, where the guard order is shared between two players)). So, the experience needed is specifically in the "jab" strategy, where you have to attack guard orders on neutral spawn points, and it's important to use the "jab" strategy))) Wicc has a wealth of experience in template building, knows all sorts of bugs in the road network, so the situation is obvious to him, but how can he put himself in the shoes of an ordinary player? Personally, in the heat of the game and due to lack of knowledge, I simply wouldn't think that they might not have run through here before :confused:. That is, I wouldn't guess, I wouldn't suspect myself of a possible violation, but I would simply assume exactly as Dirty said! :) But now I've been warned, and I will try not to do this in the future, despite the authoritative opinion of the judge

zoog

10 years ago

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wowa

Vic has the richest experience in template building, knows all sorts of road network bugs, so for him the situation is obvious

Jebus Cross is one of my most disliked and least played templates — I play below average — but even I can clearly see the bugged passage. Although if I were tilted, I might not have noticed it, I suppose.)

Dirty_Player

I don't know about others, but I wouldn't have the nerve to call a single road from the respawn a bugged passage. Yes, a mine. So what? Couldn't it have been generated that way without a bug?

But that's just how it is! (c) = a rabbi in a religious debate. And if this is the only road _from_ the respawn, then the techrest is taken for sure. According to the rules, it is forbidden even if GO is broken in one of the multiple passages to the respawn — to use others without having broken it.

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