Skip to content

Posts from Harmony - Troop Symmetry

5.0 (2 ratings)
In reply to kiko
User Avatar
Auto-translated
By the way, it's possible to enhance the prayer skill (similar to how Necromancers enhance the "Scream of Terror" with "Banshee's Wail"). I also had the idea of enhancing the guardian angel...
In short, no matter how strong humans are, their ultimate ability isn't really that super, and it needs to be balanced somehow.

Regarding the Dark Elves – they worship the Dark Dragon, not Chaos. It's logical that they would primarily benefit from Darkness for their ultimate ability, but since they specialize in Chaos, Chaos shouldn't be completely excluded. Therefore, I think the path to their ultimate ability should be through Darkness, Chaos, and Sorcery.
... И древний лес, роскошен и печален,
Блистает там воздушностью прогалин.
Но между кедров, полных тишиной,
Расщелина по склону ниспадала.
О, никогда под бледною луной
Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...
In reply to SRD
Auto-translated
SRD

As for the Dungeon Lords – they worship the Dragon of Darkness, not Chaos. It’s logical that Darkness would be their primary focus for Specialization, but since they specialize in Chaos, Chaos can’t be ignored either. Therefore, I think the path to Specialization should be through Darkness, Chaos, and Sorcery.

I didn’t mean that the Dungeon Lords should change their Specialization build.

I don’t consider myself a strong Heroes 5 player; I only play as Humans, Elves, the Mage, and the Necromancer. I don’t know how things stand with the other three races regarding Specialization, but I want to say that I don’t see the point in specializing in it for the High Elf, Human, or Necromancer because of their skill tree. Because a set of various disables, especially in combination with the right artifacts, is more useful and applicable in a wider range of situations... both against all enemy races and in clearing the map (especially if the map is complex, not just empty).

My recommendation:
Specialization should tie a race to the magic of its castle (one school) and to “non-combat” skills that are equally useful for all races – i.e., Logistics and Education. These three skills should be for everyone. Moreover, learning Specialization should not prevent the player from choosing which racial magic skills they want to learn... if this is impossible, then I think it would be better to go through the three main magic skills of the race (as it is now with the Dungeon Lords’ Specialization in Fire Magic).
In reply to kiko
User Avatar
Auto-translated
kiko
I didn't mean that Town Enhancement (TE) should replace unit upgrades.

I don't consider myself a strong Heroes 5 player; I only play as Humans, Elves, Mages, and Necromancers... and I don't know how things stand with the other three races regarding unit upgrades, but I want to say that I don't see the point in upgrading units for Light Elves, Humans, or Necromancers because of their upgrade tree. Because a set of various disables, especially in combination with the right artifacts, is more useful and applicable in a wider range of situations... both against all enemy races and in clearing the map (especially if the map is complex, not just empty).

My recommendation:
TE should tie the race to the magic of its castle (one school) and to "non-combat" skills that are equally useful for all races - i.e., logistics, education. These three skills should be for everyone. Moreover, learning TE should not prevent the player from choosing which magic skills of their race they want to learn... if this is impossible, then, in my opinion, it is better to go through three main magic skills of the race (as it is now with TE for Light Elves in fire magic).

No way!
upgrading all three lords on the path to TE - wouldn't that be too much? It's generally better to make it so that you can't upgrade all the lords - a maximum of two.

And the absurdity with TE for Demons and Light Elves needs to be resolved somehow (as I wrote above - Light Elves worship the God of Darkness, but for some reason, they upgrade Chaos, and vice versa - Demons worship the God of Chaos, but for some reason, they upgrade Darkness).

Added 3 minutes ago
Very often, TE is a very powerful thing; it makes sense to make it so that you have to choose between something, rather than mindlessly upgrading along the same path to TE, having all the good stuff
... И древний лес, роскошен и печален,
Блистает там воздушностью прогалин.
Но между кедров, полных тишиной,
Расщелина по склону ниспадала.
О, никогда под бледною луной
Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...
In reply to SRD
Auto-translated
1.
SRD

Added 3 minutes ago
[/U]Very often, Specializations are very powerful, so it makes sense to make it so that you have to choose between something, rather than mindlessly leveling up in the same branch to get to the Specialization, while having all the best skills.
:smile27:

First of all, it all depends on the map.
The usefulness of any skill is determined by the map, and any Specialization is insignificant compared to the combination of schools of magic and "defense"/"attack" if there is an opportunity to use them (depends on the enemy faction).
For example: The Tower Specialization is basically useless against 300-500 dragons (compared to the number of neutral creatures on a difficult map with the possible increase in the player's army from one castle by that time), but the combination of "defense," "light," and "dark" magic can defeat them without losses. If the Tower Specialization requires "fire," "logistics," and "education," all three necessary skills cannot be leveled up.

2.
SRD
And the absurdity with the Demon and Tower Specializations needs to be addressed (as I wrote above - the Tower worships the God of Darkness, but for some reason they level up Chaos, and vice versa - the Demons worship the God of Chaos, but for some reason they level up Darkness).
Yeah, take it easy :)
You need to understand that the developers were guided not only by the logic of the world's description, but also by the logic of the game's balance. And if you don't want to get just a "pretty picture," it's worth considering this.

P.S. I'm not very knowledgeable about the world's history, so I even googled it:

Info (I don't see where the spoiler is here):
>>According to legend, it was created by Ashha - the Dragon of Order or the First Dragon (it is known that Ashha is multifaceted - different peoples of Ashan represent her image differently; for example, Necromancers worship her as the Spider Goddess). Ashha also gave rise to the elemental dragons: Elrath (the Dragon of Light, worshiped in the Griffin Empire), Malassa (the Dragon of Darkness, patroness of the Faceless and Dark Elves), Ilath (the Dragon of Air, worshiped in the free cities of the East), Silanna (the Dragon of Earth, corresponding to the race of Wood Elves), Arkat (the Dragon of Fire, worshiped by the Dwarves), and Shalassa (the Dragon of Water, worshiped by the Nagas). In addition, there is the Dragon of Chaos, Urgash, Ashha's brother, who opposes her and seeks to destroy everything she created; Urgash created the demons<<

So what? What is the connection between "chaos magic" and the god of demons?
There is Ashha - the dragon of order, and there is her brother Urgash - the dragon of chaos (in this case, the word "chaos" does not refer to magic, it is just opposite names).
Because "chaos magic" is the elements of "earth," "water," "wind," "fire" - the elements of Ashha's dragons. It would be more correct to rename "chaos magic" to something like "elemental magic."

And before you change anything: you know why demons need "fire magic" (damage magic) when leveling up 45%/10%/15%/30%

3.
SRD
No way!
Leveling up all three lords on the way to the Specialization - isn't that too much? In general, it would be better to make it so that it is impossible to level up all the lords - max two.
I didn't want to comment, but... and I won't. There are people on this forum who know a lot about the tactics of Heroes, if not better in some specific case, then in general, more than me. It's better for them to tell you.
In reply to kiko
User Avatar
Auto-translated
I agree about Chaos, and that’s why Chaos magic should be renamed to Destruction magic (as well as changing Summoning to Creation), and Dark magic should definitely be assigned to the Dungeon faction. And yes, it’s not difficult to change the drop rate.

Added after 3 minutes
And according to you, is True Luck and Absolute Protection a weak skill??? - Ideally, the values of Special Abilities should be balanced.
... И древний лес, роскошен и печален,
Блистает там воздушностью прогалин.
Но между кедров, полных тишиной,
Расщелина по склону ниспадала.
О, никогда под бледною луной
Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...
User Avatar
Auto-translated
a call to creation
Why? Isn't everything logical here?

Added 2 minutes later
And before you change anything: you know why demons have "fire magic" (damage magic) when they level up: 45%/10%/15%/30%
Well, you can change the stats...

Added 6 minutes later
a call to creation
Renaming it to "creation" is absurd; "invocation" doesn't fit with "creation." But "distortion" could work; "creation" is just wrong! I just don't see how "Invocation" relates to "Creation."
In reply to WizardNazyr
User Avatar
Auto-translated
WizardNazyr
Why? Isn't everything logical here?

Added 2 minutes ago

Well, you can change the stats...

Added 6 minutes ago

Renaming "Summoning" to "Creation" is nonsense, but renaming it to "Distortion" makes sense; "Creation" is just absurd! I just don't see how "Summoning" relates to "Creation."

Oh, but "Distortion" is definitely nonsense, while "Creation" is like "Summoning," but with a broader scope.
... И древний лес, роскошен и печален,
Блистает там воздушностью прогалин.
Но между кедров, полных тишиной,
Расщелина по склону ниспадала.
О, никогда под бледною луной
Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...
User Avatar
Auto-translated
Well, distortion is definitely nonsense, but creation is more like an enhanced summoning spell.
Okay, you know better.
In reply to WizardNazyr
Auto-translated
WizardNazyr

Well, you can change the stats...
and then what? Change the race skill? It's designed for magic damage for the Elves, not for demons. Demons are warriors... or something. Anyway, regarding the demons - don't ask me. I don't play them (I just don't like them because their imps burn all the mana at the start of the battle, regardless of what your hero is. There are always so many of them that all the mana is drained).
SRD
And in your opinion, is True Luck and Absolute Protection a weak skill??? - ideally, the value of Special Abilities should be balanced.
You need to look at the whole picture. For example, in general terms, the Dwarves (I don't have time to go into details right now).
1. What do the Dwarves study for "Absolute Protection":
"Protection", "Summoning", "Fire".
2. Their troops (parameters, skills)
3. Availability of artifacts.
4. Enemy hero's specialties.

So: which two skills will the Dwarves choose?
If there is a Necromancer on the map... Let's say "Light" + "Leadership".
Necromancer skills: "Summoning", "Darkness", "Education", "Light", "Magic".
And if, in addition, if you dress in full Morale, you will get hit by "Blind" and subsequent debuffs on it, and Morale will still be +/- 1 (depending on which second ring the Necromancer chooses).
The Necromancer has 2 Special Abilities :) - "Horror Scream" and Zoltan. 50% block of spell removal, twice as much mana as the Dwarf, even without a link, and +>15 stats.
The Necromancer's set in two slots gives -40% initiative to the Dwarves (blocked by rings), minus 1 speed (not blocked, as you probably can't wear +1 speed boots - immunity to slow is more important).
And, of course, the Necromancer's set (2 slots) saves 50% of the hero's movement points + 30% movement points from Magic on Blind.
Without leveling up the "Morale" skill and dressing in Morale, the Dwarves cannot - because prolonging the battle, missing turns (and -20% attack/defense) against a stronger mage is not good.
And without "Light"... mass +12 parameters, blessing, curse, and the inability to remove Blind...

In general, this needs to be done by sitting down, writing out the balance of everything, and thinking for a long, long time...

And without this, I wouldn't cut skills. For example, the Human Special Abilities are completely useless - I changed them. They were created back in the days of the first version of Heroes 5, and if you remember, there weren't things like troop training limits back then - so people didn't choose Special Abilities. Afterwards, I think a lot wasn't revised. Skills like "Master of the Dead" used to be skills, but now they are ~not. If it gave 50 Dark Energy instead of just meaningless 5%, it would be a skill.


P.S. I completely forgot: "Vampirism" is something that a warrior needs, even if the 7th level opponent has 50% damage (and even then, in 50% of cases, with 5 luck).
In reply to kiko
User Avatar
Auto-translated
kiko

But why not 100% then?
You need to understand that "attack" plays a much bigger role in clearing the map.
This statement is not very obvious and has no evidence yet.

Nowadays, the symbolic 5-10% and an overpowered bonus on level 1 often provide more benefit than 30% attack, but without an easily accessible and convenient bonus. Because the skill is insignificant, and the perk is everything.
A 10/20/30% damage bonus is not very significant, but rather mediocre, as it does not apply to ranged units. And defense works more effectively (an expert reduction of 1.43 times instead of 1.3), especially in popular tactics such as "shoot them down" (where damage is dealt by ranged attacks, the rest of the troops endure, and defense works) or "kill with magic" (troops endure, and defense works).

Added after 11 minutes
kiko

Because "chaos magic" is the elements of "earth," "water," "wind," and "fire" – the elements of the dragons of Asch. Renaming "chaos magic" to something like "elemental magic" would be more appropriate.
In the English version, it's not chaos magic, but destruction magic.
And before you change anything: you know why demons need "fire magic" (damage magic) when leveling up: 45%/10%/15%/30%
Chaos magic does not necessarily require high spellcasting; it depends on the balance of spells that can be customized (in the original Heroes 5, Chaos is indeed heavily dependent on spellcasting). There are also Chaos perks that are not tied to spellcasting.

Added after 10 minutes
SRD
Oh, distortion is definitely nonsense, but creation is like summoning, but broader.
Another possible synonym is creation.
Разработчик Heroes 5.5 WarGame Edition.
Сайт проекта - пока неактивен
Автор Асимметричных шахмат
In reply to kiko
User Avatar
Auto-translated
kiko
So, what's next? Change a race's skill? It's designed for the Elves to deal magic damage, not for Demons. Demons are warriors... sort of. Anyway, regarding Demons, don't ask me. I don't play them (I just don't like them because their Imps burn through all the mana at the start of the battle, regardless of your hero. There are always so many of them that they drain everything).

You need to look at the whole picture. For example, let's take Dwarves as an example (I don't have time to go into detail right now).
1. What do Dwarves study for "absolute defense"?
"Defense," "Summoning," "Fire."
2. Their troops (parameters, skills)
3. The availability of artifacts.
4. The special abilities of the enemy hero.

So, which two skills will the Dwarves choose?
If there's a Necromancer on the map... Let's say "Light" + "Leadership."
Necromancer's skills: "Summoning," "Darkness," "Education," "Light," "Magic."
If, in addition, you wear full Morale gear, you'll get hit by "Blind" and subsequent debuffs, and Morale will still be +/- 1 (depending on which second ring the Necromancer chooses).
The Necromancer has 2 special abilities: "Shriek of Horror" and Zoltan. 50% block chance for spell removal, twice as much mana as the Dwarf, even without a connection, and +>15 stats.
The Necromancer's two-slot ability gives Dwarves -40% initiative (blocked by rings), and -1 speed (not blocked, as you probably can't wear +1 speed boots - immunity to slow is more important).
And, of course, the Necromancer's (2 slots) ability saves 50% of the hero's turn + 30% turn from Magic on Blind.
Without leveling up the "Morale" skill and wearing Morale gear, Dwarves can't win - because prolonging the battle and taking turn skips (and -20% attack/defense) against a stronger mage is not a good idea.
And without "Light"... mass +12 parameters, blessing, curse, and the inability to remove Blind...

In general, you need to sit down, write out the balance of everything, and think about it for a long time...

And without that, I wouldn't cut skills. For example, the Humans' special abilities are completely useless - I changed them. They were created back in the days of the first version of Heroes 5, and if you remember, there weren't things like troop training limits back then, so people didn't choose special abilities. Afterwards, I think a lot wasn't revised. Skills like "Lord of the Dead" used to be skills, but now they're not. If it gave 50 Dark Energy instead of just meaningless 5%, it would be a skill.


P.S. I completely forgot: "Vampirism" is something that a warrior needs to be a warrior, even if a 7th-level opponent has 50% damage (and even then, in 50% of cases, with 5 luck).

I'm sorry, but it's complete nonsense to consider artifacts - firstly, they shouldn't be so strongly tied to a race, as the main effect doesn't relate to the race, and secondly, any player can get any artifact - in short, considering artifacts is stupid in my opinion.

Dwarves would be better off replacing Summoning on the path to a special ability with Machinery
... И древний лес, роскошен и печален,
Блистает там воздушностью прогалин.
Но между кедров, полных тишиной,
Расщелина по склону ниспадала.
О, никогда под бледною луной
Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...
In reply to Nargott
Auto-translated
Nargott
especially when considering popular tactics like "shoot them down" (where damage is dealt through ranged attacks, while other troops endure, and defense works) or "kill with magic" (troops endure, defense works).
I don't know what you're talking about. At the beginning of the game, damage is what determines success in traversing the map; it's damage, not defense, that allows you to win battles without losses... or are you not playing as a "hero"? "Defense" won't give any castle such a bonus. It's "attack" that gives bonuses to Furies, Faeries, and others. How does "defense" work? Does the opponent not deal any damage to your troops at all? "Tactics" become more important later, when you have units of level 6-7, and they can eliminate or severely damage ranged units of levels 1-5 in one turn. What defense skill can provide such a bonus, allowing you to pass without losses? As you yourself noted, "BB" is a very strong bonus for attack (there is no equally strong bonus for "defense"). What is your logic? Do you want to further strengthen the "attack" skill? So that "defense" has even less meaning? Because a melee unit will even more likely "kill" the opponent with one hit (i.e., without receiving any damage in return)? "Attack" and "defense" have different tactical qualities – they cannot be compared. You can't say: "Since defense has 30%, I want attack to have 30% too."
SRD
I must apologize, but it's complete nonsense to consider artifacts – firstly, they shouldn't be so strongly tied to a race, as the main effect doesn't relate to the race, and secondly, any player can find any artifact – in short, considering artifacts is stupid in my opinion.
Sure, no problem. Then, "simply": Dwarves have an ability that reduces 50% of damage (even without the opponent's luck). The Undead give you -8 morale, -10% initiative (which is tactically worse than reducing damage), and -1 luck (minus 10% damage). Result: Even with a developed "leadership" skill, -8 + 5 = -3 morale, -10% initiative, -1 luck, and for the Necromancer, plus one skill. Or are you not going to develop leadership? Of course, the hero spends a turn doing this. P.S. What will happen if, instead of developing the "leadership" skill for the Dwarf, the Necromancer develops "luck," which will give him +30% damage and also "deadly bad luck" against the Dwarf?
In reply to kiko
User Avatar
Auto-translated
kiko
No problem :) , so, let's break it down:
Dwarves have an ability that reduces 50% of damage (even without considering the opponent's luck).

Necromancers give you -8 morale, -10% initiative (which is tactically worse than reducing damage), and -1 luck (another -10% damage).

Result:
Even with a developed "Leadership" skill, -8 + 5 = -3 morale, -10% initiative, -1 luck, and for Necromancers, plus one skill. Or are you planning not to develop the Leadership skill? :)

Of course, the hero spends a turn doing this.

P.S. What will happen if the Necromancer develops the "Luck" skill instead of the Gnome's "Leadership" skill, giving him +30% damage and also "Deadly Unluck" against the Gnome?
And why was all this explained in response to my "artifacts shouldn't be considered" - you're talking about something completely different here, and I didn't say that Necromancers have weak stats.
... И древний лес, роскошен и печален,
Блистает там воздушностью прогалин.
Но между кедров, полных тишиной,
Расщелина по склону ниспадала.
О, никогда под бледною луной
Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...
Auto-translated
SRD
and why did you feel the need to explain all this in response to my "artifacts shouldn't be taken into account" – you're talking about something completely different here, and I didn't say that the Necromancer has weak Specialization.
I just never level up Specialization for the Necromancer :), that's why I was comparing a weaker race build when talking about:
kiko
1.
any Specialization is simply useless against the combination of magic schools and "defense"/"attack" if there is an opportunity to use them (depends on the enemy race)
SRD

And according to you, is true luck and absolute defense a weak skill??? – ideally, the values of Specialization should be somehow balanced.

In my opinion, the Necromancer is leveled up through "defense" and "light"/"darkness" buffs/debuffs, which allows him to clear most of the map, including level 7 locations, through 1 slot of Vampires (due to their size) (of course, I'm talking about maps with a normal difficulty level on a "hero").
And by leveling up through mentoring, you can increase Dark Energy by 3 times :)
So, Specialization doesn't work for the Necromancer.
In reply to kiko
User Avatar
Auto-translated
in general, you don't really need to change the special ability of Necropolis, Haven, Fortress, Stronghold, and Inferno;
Haven clearly has the weakest special ability;
as for Academy and Castle, I don't even know – it seems weak, but also not bad
therefore, what really needs to be done is to either rework "Unrelenting Force" or not make it a special ability, but put it in defense (because this skill enhances "Overwatch," not just direct attack), and put something else in its place as a special ability.
... И древний лес, роскошен и печален,
Блистает там воздушностью прогалин.
Но между кедров, полных тишиной,
Расщелина по склону ниспадала.
О, никогда под бледною луной
Так пышен не был тот уют лесной...

Statistics

Welcome our newest member: Emil