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Posts from Good and evil.

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19 years ago
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Am I saying that a believer is "stupid"? On the contrary, I believe that it is better to believe than not to believe.
However, what to believe in is another question.
Christianity did not originate from paganism; on the contrary, the creators of this religion wanted to oppose it to paganism... but... this is what we see in the scriptures, i.e., in those internal logical connections of this religion, as outlined by the Apostle Paul, John the Theologian, and others. But what about in practice? Where in the scriptures, i.e., in the sources of early Christianity, is it said about saints? about the Mother of God? about the Trinity? If the Apostle Paul speaks of "saints," then he exclusively refers to those living Christians who have devoted themselves to serving God in the name of Jesus. Nowhere in the New Testament will you find justification for the current prayers to saints, the Mother of God, and the Trinity, and even to Jesus as an incarnate hypostasis of God.
All of this was introduced precisely from paganism, among which the Christian faith spread in the 4th century. It was then that the need arose to "adapt" Christianity to the psychology of pagans. That is, the rise of Christianity in the Roman Empire also led to its fall as an original and antagonistic religion to paganism. Since that time, saints began to be venerated, although martyrs were venerated earlier, but in a slightly different way. Icons, images, and the cross appeared as the official attributes of Christianity. Prayers to saints appeared, which former pagans perceived as a replacement for familiar "gods," rituals that replaced pagan rituals, but in a way that was understandable for pagans, i.e., they essentially adapted pagan ones; holidays that were deliberately placed in place of pagan ones, and so on. That is, starting approximately from the 4th century, Christianity really began to resemble paganism more. In addition, under Constantine the Great, there were only 10% Christians, who also feuded among themselves (the Arian heresy). And until Emperor Theodosius the Great, Christianity struggled for its existence with paganism. But, having finally won, it was, in essence, a parody of paganism, since, for the most part, it was ignorant of theological issues and was more limited to cult worship. And this was originally the prerogative of paganism. When Christianity was a local, catacomb religion, it was a completely different entity, with its own psychology, its own spirit. But, having become accessible to everyone and popular, it was also profaned by that very people.
Настоящие герои - не те, пред кем мы преклоняемся, а те, кого мы оплевываем...[/COLOR]
-----------------------------
"So much has gone
and little is new"

David Bowie
In reply to Silvanis
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19 years ago
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Silvanis;82431
Regarding healing, it's a murky subject... Pagan priests and shamans also seem to work, not to mention other world religions...

The argument based on evidence is also weak – for example, Muhammad testifies to Allah (don't tell me that it translates to "God"! I know! I'll even add that "god" is "lah"; "al" is a definite article – it turns out to be something like "the God" – "Al-lah." Theologically, these gods are completely different!). There are countless testimonies about the appearances of, for example, bodhisattvas, or, even more so, pagan deities!

I believe in God, but I can't say for sure why... I just... don't even feel it, I simply know (although this is a very presumptuous statement, I couldn't find a better word:()), that He exists...
I think that Allah is the same God, only in their language, it's called Allah. They have slightly different laws, but the essence is the same.
Why is healing a murky subject??? What's so murky about it? Shamans and priests... it's debatable. This was a long time ago, and it's not the case now. If they were healers, why were they feared?
:D
In reply to Silvanis
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19 years ago
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Silvanis;82417
That's exactly it! And this is a major weakness of paganism. It has only a practical purpose and says nothing about morality (all pagan "morality" is too closely tied to practice).

We know NOTHING about Slavic paganism. All the books we have (like the now-famous Book of Veles) are forgeries. This is a fact confirmed by the Academy of Sciences. Rybakov simply invented Slavic paganism, based on very few and rather contradictory finds and chronicles of other peoples. In general, of all European paganisms, we know at least something more or less reliably only about Scandinavian paganism.

"Slav" from "to glorify God"?:smile52: What a joke! Only Zadornov came up with something even funnier - "Slav is 'slav' Yan 'In'" (by the way, it's actually Yin and Yang). I didn't expect to have to explain this well-known fact to such an educated and intelligent person as Ganymede... "Slav" comes from the word "glory"; the names of many Slavic tribes (not all!) and places were very, very warlike (for example, "Branibor," now Brandenburg). In general, the Slavs, especially the Western Slavs, were a very warlike people - they were perhaps the only ones who robbed the Vikings (I was shocked when I found out).

Well, I used modern paganism (Neopaganism) as an example, as it presents itself, I just didn't explain it. About the forgeries... well, let them be forgeries, but people have created their modern faith based on them. And why not? Everything started somewhere at some point. In the 1st century, one could just as easily call the writings of the apostles about Jesus forgeries.;)

Added 2 minutes later
OptiMAL;82422
Pagans worship statues. And not just one, but several. But where is the proof that these statues are genuine?

And Christians worship icons. And not just one, but several. But where is the proof that these icons are genuine?:)
Don't confuse the concepts of image and archetype if you're going to make comparisons
Настоящие герои - не те, пред кем мы преклоняемся, а те, кого мы оплевываем...[/COLOR]
-----------------------------
"So much has gone
and little is new"

David Bowie
In reply to Ganymed
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19 years ago
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Ganymed;82441

And Christians worship icons. Moreover, they worship not just one, but several. But where is the proof that these icons are genuine?:)
You shouldn't confuse the concepts of image and archetype, if you're going to make comparisons. :)
Icons are genuine because they heal the sick.
:D
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19 years ago
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initially, it is not the icons that heal, but the faith of the person. Pagan "icons" also healed; otherwise, people would have abandoned paganism long ago. The point is that healing from icons "works" according to a pagan principle. The priests, and later the clergy, were well aware of this principle.
Настоящие герои - не те, пред кем мы преклоняемся, а те, кого мы оплевываем...[/COLOR]
-----------------------------
"So much has gone
and little is new"

David Bowie
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19 years ago
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Allah differs from God in many ways. Here are a few key differences:
1) God is a Trinity, while Allah is not.
2) According to Christianity, people have free will; according to Islam, they do not; Islam is a fatalistic religion.
3) God became incarnate to atone for the sins of people; Allah did nothing of the sort.

Essentially, I have pointed out some of the cornerstones upon which Christianity is based, and how Islam differs from it. This is by no means an exhaustive list, but it is enough to say that Islam is no closer to Christianity than the infamous Gnosticism...
С Пути сбивают мелкие достижения, а изощрённые суждения скрывают смысл слов. И вот уже возникают "правильное" и "неправильное"...
- Чжуан-цзы
Сильванис
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19 years ago
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Good and evil are interdependent concepts. They have no clear boundaries. For a terminally ill person who is fully conscious and in excruciating pain, is life or death good? A doctor who causes pain to a patient: is he doing good or evil? Everyone has their own assessment of good and evil. For me, it is normal not to do to others what you would not want done to yourself, plus the "Aniskin's rule": treat the arrogant with arrogance, and treat normal people normally. To each their own...
In reply to Алекс_П
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19 years ago
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Silvanis;82456
Allah differs greatly from God. Here are a few key differences:
1) God is a Trinity, while Allah is not.
2) According to Christianity, people have free will; according to Islam, they do not; Islam is a fatalistic religion.
3) God became incarnate to atone for the sins of people; Allah did nothing of the sort.

Essentially, I've pointed out some of the fundamental tenets of Christianity and how Islam differs from them. There are many more points, but these are enough to say that Islam is no closer to Christianity than the infamous Gnosticism...


I disagree! Islam is just as much a "child of Christianity" as Christianity is a "child of Judaism." Everyone knows Muhammad, the prophet of Allah, but in Islam, figures like Jesus and Moses are also revered, albeit to a lesser extent. This was especially common before the Crusades. Afterwards, some animosity arose between these religions. There's also a theory that a new prophet appears approximately every 600 years, bringing with them a new religion. While this is a pseudo-historical theory, consider:
Moses
Buddha
Jesus
Muhammad
---I don't know who, maybe you can suggest---
Karl Marx

The time intervals between them are roughly 600 years. Regarding the fifth, I think it might be Martin Luther, and I'm not entirely sure about the last one. Furthermore, Hinduism appeared 600 years before Moses. Is this some kind of pattern?

BUT I WANT TO DRAW YOUR ATTENTION TO THE TOPIC TITLE! THIS ISN'T A HISTORY OF RELIGIONS! IT'S ABOUT "GOOD AND EVIL."
Therefore, whoever wrote that everyone sets their own rules should read the last chapters of "Crime and Punishment," where Raskolnikov dreams about the future. I generally agree with Silvanis about the framework of morality.
Я лишь с теми, кто ищет истину...
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19 years ago
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I believe that the boundaries between good and evil are defined by each individual. For example, for some, deceiving and betraying is not considered evil, while for others, killing a fly is already an act of evil.
In reply to REgulus
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19 years ago
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REgulus;82490
How can I put it better? I disagree! Islam is just as much a "child of Christianity" as Christianity is a "child of Judaism." Everyone knows Muhammad, the prophet of Allah, BUT Islam also reveres, although not as much, Isaac (Jesus) and Moses. This was especially common before the Crusades. And then some kind of dislike began between these religions.
I know all this perfectly well! For your information, Islam reveres 7 prophets - 3 from the Old Testament, Jesus, Muhammad, Adam, and Alexander the Great.
My post didn't say that Islam and Christianity are not related at all, but that they are very different!
С Пути сбивают мелкие достижения, а изощрённые суждения скрывают смысл слов. И вот уже возникают "правильное" и "неправильное"...
- Чжуан-цзы
Сильванис
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19 years ago
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Pagans worship statues. And not just one, but several. But where is the proof that these statues are true? God is true because Jesus Christ bore witness to Him. And it was not only one person who wrote about Him, but many. And if two or more bear witness—then their testimony is true (this is not about a conspiracy; each has their own opinion and speaks freely). Many sick people go to temples and are healed by the grace of God.

Here's another sage! I give Ganymede +1 for all the posts where he argues with Optimal; by the way, how did battle spirit birds become such a permanent part of our lives—we just can't do without them anymore!
First of all, it seems there aren't even any such pagans who worship statues; well, at least I don't know of any.
Many people wrote about paganism too, not just one.
It is indeed faith that heals, and not icons or statues.

Judaism, Islam, and Christianity are, roughly speaking, one current viewed from different sides.
In reply to Saruman
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19 years ago
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Saruman;82569
Firstly, there don't seem to be any pagans who worship statues; at least, I don't know of any.
Have you not heard of Hindus, for example? :) In many pagan religions, statues are just like icons. Idols, images of gods – unfortunately, many icons have become idols:( This has upset many people, and often entire movements have arisen in Christianity that deny the worship of icons (for example, the iconoclasts in Byzantium or Protestants:D)
Saruman;82569
Faith, not icons or statues, is what heals.
It is not known for sure, of course, but most likely you and Ganymede are right. In psychology, there is even an entire field – psychosomatics – that studies the influence of mental state (including faith) on health.
Saruman;82569
Judaism, Islam, and Christianity are, roughly speaking, one current viewed from different angles.
That's the view of an amateur. Of course, they are similar – they are incomparably closer to each other than, for example, to Buddhism, but they are still very different.
С Пути сбивают мелкие достижения, а изощрённые суждения скрывают смысл слов. И вот уже возникают "правильное" и "неправильное"...
- Чжуан-цзы
Сильванис
In reply to Берсерк
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19 years ago
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Berserk;82339
What kind of Christianity are you talking about? Ganymede, don't confuse your Russian Orthodoxy with other denominations. I'm for Protestants; they believe in direct communication with God, a pure relationship, no intermediaries. And they don't consider the Virgin Mary a deity or worship her. All controversial issues are resolved solely based on the Bible. It's simple and accessible. And you shouldn't judge early Christianity based on modern Orthodoxy and Catholicism, as they are as different as heaven and earth.
Hmm... you know, the topic we're discussing is actually different, although it's related to the topic of the dispute. But still, how can you not consider the Mother of God a saint? Honestly, they seem like strange people. By the way, you're for Protestantism, but based on your posts, with such heated arguments, I would think you're either a complete Orthodox believer or a zealous Satanist (including Freemasons). ;) Well, I don't want to offend you. In general, we can say that we communicate with God almost every day, because God is I. (Don't get me wrong, little Lelya; I meant His second name.) :)


In reply to Леля
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19 years ago
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Lelya;82725
Hmm... you know, the topic we're discussing is actually different, although it's related to the debate. But still, how can one not consider the Virgin Mary a saint? Honestly, they were strange people back then. By the way, you're for Protestantism, but based on your posts, with such heated arguments, I would have thought you were either a complete Orthodox believer or a zealous Satanist (including Freemasons). ;) Well, I don't want to offend you. In general, we can say that we communicate with God almost every day, because God is I. (Don't think badly of little Lelya, I meant His second name.):)
Well... a lot of water has flowed under the bridge. Lelya has become much wiser. Literally a different person. I remember, before, the first thing she did when she entered the portal was shout in the chat, "Riiiiiiiiiiiin," "People, talk to me," and things like that. Now she's a completely different person.
ДУРАКОВ ОЧЕНЬ МАЛО, НО ОНИ РАССТАВЛЕНЫ ТАК ГРАМОТНО, ЧТО ВСТРЕЧАЮТСЯ НА КАЖДОМ ШАГУ.
Прошу прощения у Arandor-а. Я слишком резко отреагировал. Просто очень люблю спорт. Извини...[/SIZE]
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19 years ago
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Yes? Perhaps Ms. Lelya has learned how to write convoluted (from her perspective) and frankly contradictory things as evidence. But the argument with her at the end, first with Ganymede, who simply doesn't understand the meaning of Christianity. Quote: "But... this is what we see in scripture, i.e., the internal logic and interconnections of this religion, as outlined by the Apostle Paul, John the Theologian, and others. But what about in practice? Where in scripture, i.e., in the sources of early Christianity, is there mention of saints? Of the Mother of God? Of the Trinity? If the Apostle Paul speaks of "saints," it is exclusively about those living Christians who have dedicated themselves to serving God in the name of Jesus. Nowhere in the New Testament will you find justification for the current prayers to saints, to the Mother of God, and to the Trinity, and even to Jesus as an incarnate hypostasis of God." I'm saying the same thing! This is also what Protestantism says. Remember the commandment: "You shall not make idols or images?" And in the end, they made icons and don't care about anything else. But I'm not judging, I'm just stating a fact. In the Bible, dear Lelya, the Mother of God is not mentioned, only as the Virgin Mary, and simply as a pure woman, period. And you cannot pray to a person, and Mary was and is a person. Ganymede, you're saying Christianity for the hundredth time, using your knowledge of Orthodoxy. I've been in both, so I'll repeat, all of this is absent in Protestantism, where the only law is the Bible. There are no elaborate robes, hundreds of rituals, icons, and so on. I'm judging based on the fundamentals, and you're talking about what was acquired by one of the streams. Don't even try to prove that the atheistic theory is even a gram more proven than the theory of creationists. I've read the Talmud and books, arguments of physicists on forums (it's a difficult thing, but such global ideas...), so I can confidently say that there is no proof of evolution. (In science, as long as there is at least one factor (scientific) that atheists have not been able to refute, they have no right to consider their theory proven. Let them use their colossal knowledge and create a dog-bird. I will immediately become an atheist.) So, there's no point in arguing, but rather, we should consider the issues in parallel (as I try to do). From the point of view of both versions. And let's end these silly squabbles. Christianity did not come from paganism; otherwise, you don't know what's written in the Bible well enough. It's generally pointless to argue with Lelya; she tries to prove something based on her simplistic worldview. (The topic about UFOs, where she says that there are many gods) - this is already, dear, paganism, not Christianity. Either one, or paganism. First, say how many, and then we'll talk.

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