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Ganymed
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Nowizard;82260
Regarding prayers — true, however, how thoroughly the pagans adopted this from us...:rolleyes: ;) :)

Regarding being "right" — So, if I say that two times two = thirteen, will I be right?:)

1. No, it's still the case — Christianity adopted it from paganism. It is enough that all Christian holidays appeared in place of pagan ones, not only here, but also in Ancient Rome.

2. Yes, you will be right. For yourself, until you realize that you are mistaken;)

2Silvanis

Be that as it may, both in paganism and in Christianity there exists a system of minor "gods" who are "accessible" guardian spirits for humans. And the One God has always been something distant and incomprehensible. "Applied" objects of worship are much more understandable.
Настоящие герои - не те, пред кем мы преклоняемся, а те, кого мы оплевываем...[/COLOR]
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"So much has gone
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David Bowie
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Берсерк
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What kind of Christianity are you talking about? Ganymede, don't confuse your Russian Orthodox faith with other denominations. I'm for Protestants; they believe in direct communication with God, pure relationships, and no intermediaries. They don't consider the Virgin Mary a deity and don't worship her. All controversial issues are resolved solely based on the Bible. It's simple and accessible. And you shouldn't judge early Christianity based on modern Orthodox and Catholic practices, as they are as different as heaven and earth.
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Смок
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Berserk;82339
What kind of Christianity are you talking about? Ganymede, don't confuse your Russian Orthodoxy with other denominations. I'm for Protestants; they believe in direct communication with God, a pure relationship, no intermediaries. And they don't consider the Virgin Mary a deity or worship her. All controversial issues are resolved solely based on the Bible. It's simple and accessible. And you shouldn't judge early Christianity based on modern Orthodoxy and Catholicism, as they are as different as heaven and earth.
From your statement, it seems that there are many gods in Orthodoxy?...doesn't the Bible say that there is only one God?...So, does that mean that Orthodoxy isn't Christianity at all?...
Please don't confuse Saints and Gods.
After all, a saint is not a God and does not have the same power as God.
And the Virgin Mary (also known as the Mother of God) is a saint.
She is not worshipped; prayers are addressed to her (P.S. not criticizing, just saying).

P.S. not Russian, but Russian. And it has a specific name - ORTHODOXY.
Ничего нет только у мёртвого - у живого есть хотя бы жизнь...
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Darth Saruman
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Akella;82342
From your statement, it seems there are many gods in Orthodoxy... isn't it said in the Bible that there is only one God?... So, does it turn out that Orthodoxy is not Christianity at all?...
Please don't confuse Saints and Gods.
After all, a saint is not a God and does not have the same power as God.
And the Virgin Mary (also known as the Mother of God) is a saint.
They don't worship her; they address their prayers to her (P.S. not criticizing, just saying).

I completely agree...
and people pray to the Virgin Mary more as the closest intermediary between a person and God.
Сила Тьмы - в бессилии света.
Нет невежества - есть Знание
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Ganymed
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Berserker;82339
What kind of Christianity are you talking about? Ganymede, don't confuse your Russian Orthodoxy with other denominations. I'm for Protestants; they believe in direct communication with God, pure relationships, no intermediaries. They don't consider the Virgin Mary a deity and don't worship her. All controversial issues are resolved solely based on the Bible. It's simple and accessible. And you shouldn't judge early Christianity based on modern Orthodoxy and Catholicism, as they are as different as heaven and earth.

I agree. Early Christianity was indeed different. But how? After the fourth century, we can't fully understand it because that's when the canons of the New Testament were formed, according to church history. If we consider the apocryphal books that have survived, we can find many interesting and possibly more truthful things about early Christianity ("The Book of Hermas," for example).
As for Protestants, I personally like the polemical argument of Orthodox and Catholics regarding Protestants' preference for "pure" Scripture over church tradition. It goes something like this: "The current New Testament canon was created by the unified Orthodox Church in the 4th century. The basis of this canon was not only the manuscripts that had reached the church fathers but also the common church tradition, which was used to select the sources for creating the New Testament. Therefore, the main thing for the Orthodox, and also the Catholic Church, is church "tradition," not "scripture." And you (Protestants) have taken part of our traditions, which make up the New Testament, and you revere them in isolation from the overall tradition, because scripture is only part of the tradition." There is some logic to this, because, reasoning in modern terms, there is the issue of "copyright" on a work. So, this "right" de facto (whether we like it or not) belongs to the Unified Universal Orthodox Church (which also includes the Catholic Church, which is also Universal – "Catholic" means "universal" in Greek). And Protestants have, in effect, taken someone else's work and are using it as they see fit. "They should have written their own New Testament." In essence, according to the logic of the church officials, they are right.
Настоящие герои - не те, пред кем мы преклоняемся, а те, кого мы оплевываем...[/COLOR]
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"So much has gone
and little is new"

David Bowie
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Silvanis
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Ganymed;82305
Be that as it may, both in paganism and Christianity there exists a system of minor "gods" who are "accessible" to humans as "guardian spirits." Whereas the One God has always been something distant and incomprehensible. "Applied" objects of worship are far more understandable.
I completely agree! I have always been convinced that folk Orthodoxy (and not just Orthodoxy) is much closer to paganism than to any other religion.
Only one difference—I believe the pagans didn't think about this "one god" at all. Even in modern concepts of paganism (neo-paganism), which have undergone strong influence from later monotheistic religions, especially Christianity, there may be a single god whose incarnations are smaller, traditional deities, or two divine principles—male and female—or simply a multitude of gods.
С Пути сбивают мелкие достижения, а изощрённые суждения скрывают смысл слов. И вот уже возникают "правильное" и "неправильное"...
- Чжуан-цзы
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Nowizard
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Akella;82342
From your statement, it seems you believe in many gods... isn't it written in the Bible that there is only one God?... So, does that mean that Orthodoxy is not Christianity at all?...
Please don't confuse Saints and Gods.
After all, a saint is not a God and does not have the same power as a God.
And the Virgin Mary (also known as the Mother of God) is a saint.
They do not worship her; they address their prayers to her (P.S. not criticizing, just saying).

P.S. not Russian, but Russian. And it has a specific name - ORTHODOXY.
User Nowizard boosted Akella's morale for this message.
Бог есть любовь
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Ganymed
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Silvanis;82371

The only difference is that I believe the pagans didn't think much about this "one god." Even in modern concepts of paganism (Neopaganism), which have been strongly influenced by later monotheistic religions, especially Christianity, there can be either a single god, whose incarnations are smaller, traditional deities, or two divine principles - male and female - or simply many gods.

It's just that paganism doesn't have the concept of "theology" as such. But, for example, Slavic pagan religion (Slavs - from "to glorify God") is based precisely on the One God, who created the world.
Настоящие герои - не те, пред кем мы преклоняемся, а те, кого мы оплевываем...[/COLOR]
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"So much has gone
and little is new"

David Bowie
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Nowizard
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Berserk;82339
What kind of Christianity are you talking about? Ganymede, don't confuse your Russian Orthodoxy with other denominations. I'm for Protestants; they believe in direct communication with God, pure relationships, no intermediaries. They don't consider the Virgin Mary a deity and don't worship her. All controversial issues are resolved solely based on the Bible. It's simple and accessible. And you shouldn't judge early Christianity based on modern Orthodoxy and Catholicism, as they are as different as heaven and earth.
I don't quite understand what Ganymede is trying to prove. Christianity is an independent religion and didn't originate from any paganism. To say so is simply foolish. Berserk, with all due respect, I didn't expect such politics from you: "Protestantism is good, and Orthodoxy and Catholicism are just inferior faiths," is that it? We have one God, and you're dragging your brothers through the mud without becoming any cleaner yourself. I could now tell you how the religions separated, but I don't want to get involved. Berserk, I could expect such remarks from Ganymede or AlexeyPank, because they are not Christians and don't understand (Ganymede, Alexey - no offense, to the same extent I don't understand Buddhism, paganism, etc.), but not from a fellow believer. You criticize Catholics for the Crusades, even though they have already repented for the sins of their ancestors; you criticize Orthodox Christians for the Old Believers, even though now both groups attend the same church and have long forgotten their mutual disagreements; and your attempt to position yourselves as superior to others, even though you appeared later (except for the Mormons), looks like nothing more than empty boasting. And don't be offended; I really didn't expect this from you. Christian holidays, whose roots lie in paganism, don't mean anything. They are nothing more than pagan traditions that have become ingrained and are now considered Christian. After all, we all know that Christianity didn't appear immediately in Rome, Greece, or Russia. It's a weak argument.
Бог есть любовь
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Ganymed
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Nowizard;82390
I don't quite understand what Ganymede is trying to prove. Christianity is an independent religion and did not originate from any paganism. To say so is simply foolish.

Well, maybe it is foolish, of course. I just look at the subject from a slightly different perspective. For you, as a believer, it's foolish in any case, even if it's true. But for me, as a "non-believer," it's a fact that I see clearly. Who is right? And is this truth even necessary? There is faith and disbelief, everything else is just "adjectives":)
Настоящие герои - не те, пред кем мы преклоняемся, а те, кого мы оплевываем...[/COLOR]
-----------------------------
"So much has gone
and little is new"

David Bowie
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Nowizard
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Ganymed;82404
Well, maybe it is silly. I just look at the subject with different eyes. For you, as a believer, it's silly in any case, even if it's true. But for me, as a "non-believer," it's a fact that I see clearly. Who is right? And is this truth even necessary? There is faith and disbelief, everything else is just "adjectives":)
Okay, explain to me, you simple believer, why Christianity originated from paganism?:)
Бог есть любовь
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Silvanis
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Ganymed;82378
In paganism, there is simply no concept of "theology" as such.
That's exactly right! And this is a major weakness of paganism. It has only a practical purpose, saying nothing about morality (all pagan "morality" is too closely tied to practice).
Ganymed;82378
But, for example, Slavic pagan religion (Slavs - from "to glorify God") is based precisely on the One God who created the world. And the name of this God is Rod. I think that in other pagan beliefs, one can find something similar or close to this, although there may be variations, I agree.
We know NOTHING about Slavic paganism. All the books we have (like the now-famous Book of Veles) are forgeries. This is a fact confirmed by the Academy of Sciences. Rybakov simply invented Slavic paganism, based on very few and rather contradictory finds and chronicles of other peoples. In general, of all European paganisms, we know at least something more or less reliably only about Scandinavian paganism.

"Slav" from "to glorify God"?:smile52: What a joke! Only Zadornov came up with something even funnier - "Slav is 'slav' Yan 'In'" (by the way, in reality it's Yin and Yang). I didn't expect to have to explain this well-known fact to such an educated and intelligent person as Ganymed... "Slav" comes from the word "glory"; the names of many Slavic tribes (not all!) and places were very, very warlike (for example, "Branibor," now Brandenburg). In general, the Slavs, especially the Western Slavs, were a very warlike people - they were perhaps the only ones who robbed the Vikings (I was shocked when I found out).
С Пути сбивают мелкие достижения, а изощрённые суждения скрывают смысл слов. И вот уже возникают "правильное" и "неправильное"...
- Чжуан-цзы
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OptiMAL
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Pagans worship statues. And not just one, but several. But where is the proof that these statues are genuine? God is genuine because Jesus Christ testified about Him. And not just one person wrote about Him, but many. And if two or more testify, their testimony is true (this is not about a conspiracy; everyone has their own opinion and speaks freely). Many sick people go to temples and are healed by the grace of God.
:D
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Берсерк
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It feels like people are responding without actually reading the post. I'll have to comment on this simple and harmless text, even though it's already clear enough, for those who... don't read. "What kind of Christianity is that? Ganymede, don't confuse your Russian Orthodoxy with other denominations." It says that there are other denominations (Protestantism and Catholicism) and that they shouldn't be confused. Did you really not understand the jab? "I'm for the Protestants; they recognize direct communication with God, a pure relationship, no intermediaries. They don't consider the Virgin Mary a deity and don't worship her. All controversial issues are resolved solely based on the Bible. It's simple and accessible." This expresses my personal opinion and briefly outlines the differences between Protestantism and the other two denominations. Did you really not understand the jab again? "And there's no need to judge early Christianity based on present-day Orthodoxy and Catholicism, as they differ like night and day." That's absolutely correct. Rituals, clothing, style, and the veneration of all sorts of saints didn't exist at first. These things appeared later with the development of history. I'm talking about the origins, not the current denominations. Did you really not understand what was offensive? In which sentence did I "smear" anything? I didn't expect such frankly stupid and unfounded attacks from you, Wiz, which are both ridiculous and disappointing. :(
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Silvanis
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As for healings—it's a murky business... Pagan priests and shamans also seem to work, not to mention other world religions...

The argument from testimony is also weak—about Allah, for example, Muhammad testifies (don't tell me it translates as "God"! I know! I'll even add—"lah" means "god"; "al" is the definite article—so you get something like "the God"—"Al-lah". Theologically, these gods are completely different!). As for testimonies of appearances, for example, of bodhisattvas, or even more so, pagan deities, they are simply countless!

I believe in God; but why—I cannot say exactly... I just somehow... don't even feel it, I just know (although this is a very presumptuous statement, I couldn't find a better word :(), that He exists...
С Пути сбивают мелкие достижения, а изощрённые суждения скрывают смысл слов. И вот уже возникают "правильное" и "неправильное"...
- Чжуан-цзы
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