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In reply to Ganymed
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Ganymed;81997
Essentially, yes, of course. The foundation of paganism is the belief in God. But without any "scriptures." At best, there are traditions, which are modified from generation to generation.
And then – paganism is naturally organic to humans. Many, and very many, "Christians" completely misunderstand the essence of Christian dogmas and are, in essence, pagans, coming to church to "appease their souls" or "ask God" for something, i.e., almost always it is one of the "gods" that is closest to their perception (or the Virgin Mary). Few people turn to the One God directly to solve their problems. Everyone in Christianity has their own "god" (some saint, a righteous person, or the Virgin Mary). So the pagan essence "works" even in Christianity because humanity has not come up with anything better than this essence.
People pray to saints so that they will pray to God for their requests. Do you think you are worthy to speak with God? Almost no Christians believe so. At least study Orthodoxy:) (Okay, let's not talk about the Bible:), and then draw conclusions, because you don't know anything about Orthodoxy, admit it:smile08: Only articles and TV shows:smile26:
Бог есть любовь
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Here's how you feel about the idea that "the world lies in evil"? That is, the most benevolent thing would be to destroy the entire world in order to snatch it from the clutches of evil? This is roughly how the Manichaeans, Albigensians, and Cathars reasoned...
Our entire world is a world of consumption that doesn't care about the future. And if it takes destroying 5,900,000,000 people so that the remaining people can survive, is that good or evil?
To blow up the world to save it...
Мы спасемся? Я не знаю. Верьте...
Геройский Интернационал
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And what ideas you have, AlexeyPunk... I hope you're not serious!
It's better to look at how beautiful the world is! Look at the sunrise and the sunset... Think about your favorite girl;) (if you have one). Think about history - how often, in those cases when it seemed that the world was heading straight to hell, everything was fixed; and hasn't anything similar happened in your life?
Really, do you seriously think that the world is so bad?
And if you do, wouldn't it be better to try to fix it, rather than destroy it? Why give up right away without even trying?
С Пути сбивают мелкие достижения, а изощрённые суждения скрывают смысл слов. И вот уже возникают "правильное" и "неправильное"...
- Чжуан-цзы
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In reply to AlexeyPank
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AlexeyPank;82038
But what do you think about the idea that "the world lies in evil"? That is, the most virtuous thing would be to destroy the entire world in order to snatch it from the clutches of evil? This is roughly how the Manichaeans, Albigensians, and Cathars reasoned...
Our entire world is a world of consumption that does not care about the future. And if it is necessary to destroy 5,900,000,000 people so that the remaining people can survive, is this good or evil?
To blow up the world to save it...
People, this is not even funny anymore, stop distorting and rewriting what is written in the Bible! I can also take a quote from the Quran, take it out of context, and say, "this quote proves that Muslims are suicidal." Where have you seen God calling for murder? Isn't it written in the Bible to turn the other cheek if you are struck on the one? Isn't it written in the Bible to love one another, for God is love? Isn't it written in the Bible: Do not murder, do not steal, honor your father and mother? Next time, think about what you are writing, sorry for the rudeness.
Бог есть любовь
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I'm not advocating for anything like that. I'm just proposing a scenario. How will people react to it? If someone decides to wage war against the world to save it, what is that? How do you judge such a person? He clearly doesn't fit into the framework of ordinary morality. He is either a villain unlike any other, or a saint.
Such situations, of course, don't happen every day, but you need to be prepared for anything.
By the way, the phrase: "It is better to destroy five billion people on Earth to save the Earth and the remaining people!" - belongs to me, but it arose in the heat of an argument at work. The argument was about consumer society.
Мы спасемся? Я не знаю. Верьте...
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In reply to Nowizard
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Nowizard;82045
People, this is no longer even funny; stop distorting and rewriting what is written in the Bible! I can also take a quote from the Quran, pull it out of context, and say, "This quote proves that Muslims are suicidal." Where have you seen God calling for murder? Isn't it in the Bible that you should turn the other cheek if you are struck on one? Isn't it in the Bible that you should love one another, for God is love? Isn't it in the Bible that you should not kill, not steal, honor your father and mother? Next time, think about what you are writing; I apologize for the rudeness.
First, the Bible is written with a capital letter.
Second, I did not indicate that I was quoting this book; the phrase was taken for a completely different purpose.
Third, I always think about what I write and do not only obey emotions.
Мы спасемся? Я не знаю. Верьте...
Геройский Интернационал
Клан Homo homini - основатель клана
Член РКСМ с 07.07.07.
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In reply to AlexeyPank
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AlexeyPank;82047
He clearly doesn't fit within the framework of conventional morality.
That's where the disagreement lies. Nowizard, Berserk, and I (guys, correct me if I'm wrong) believe that everyone fits within the framework of conventional morality, while others believe that it all depends on the individual's perspective. For example, I don't believe that this typical character, who goes to war with the whole world, doesn't fit within the framework of conventional morality. However, neither the three of us – Berserk, Wiz, and myself – nor anyone else can give you commandments for every situation in life, provide an indisputable and absolute definition of good. You must understand – and, most importantly, you do understand! – what is good in each specific situation. For this, you don't need to rely on some complex philosophical constructs; on the contrary, they will cloud your mind and lead you away from seeing good and evil (I'm not calling for abandoning intellectual activity – I'm just calling for abandoning activity that is obviously pointless and unproductive). And you don't need to engage in Jesuitical arguments, citing some borderline cases that, by the way, don't even occur in real life! Don't misunderstand me – I'm not hoping to convert anyone to my beliefs or, God forbid, to educate them; that's not my business at all – God teaches us (life itself, if that's better for you). I just provided some information for reflection, that's all...
С Пути сбивают мелкие достижения, а изощрённые суждения скрывают смысл слов. И вот уже возникают "правильное" и "неправильное"...
- Чжуан-цзы
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I agree with Silvanis. (By the way, where are the pros and cons? The buttons disappeared from the menu :( ) In general, there is a lot of room for discussion in the Philosophy topic (section). Where you can present your theorems, prove them, and other interesting things, but on neutral ground. For example, the question: "Can a square be a circle?" and we divide into supporters and provide purely logical proofs. This is interesting and useful for the mind. But forum wars are not needed. I think I made myself clear. Let's move on to discussions if you don't mind.
In reply to Берсерк
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Berserk;82068
Let's move on to discussions, if you don't mind.
Good idea:)
By the way, I also feel that there's a lack of +/- buttons... Maybe the admin decided to remove them now? It would be a shame if that's the case...
С Пути сбивают мелкие достижения, а изощрённые суждения скрывают смысл слов. И вот уже возникают "правильное" и "неправильное"...
- Чжуан-цзы
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In reply to AlexeyPank
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AlexeyPank;82038

Our entire world is a world of consumption that doesn't care about the future. And if it becomes necessary to destroy 5,900,000,000 people so that the remaining people can survive, is that good or evil?
To blow up the world to save it...
Yeah, another case of arbitrary assignment to "villains" and "saints." Specifically (personally for me), it's impossible to prove that someone who destroys so many people is right or wrong. On one hand, they will destroy a great many people, but on the other hand, they will save all of humanity. The goal is global and aimed at a "good" purpose. Some may think that option number 2 is better and more humane, but let's look at it from another angle. Perhaps you will destroy useful people and leave behind lazy people and criminals. Do you really want that kind of new world? I want to say that in such complex situations, it is very difficult to decide, and it is impossible to put everything in order: "this is a good deed," "this is a bad deed."


In reply to Nowizard
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Nowizard;82037
People pray to saints so that they, in turn, will pray to God for their requests. Do you think you are worthy to speak with God? Almost no Christians believe so. Well, at least study Orthodoxy:) (Okay, let's skip the Bible for now:), and then draw conclusions, because you know nothing about Orthodoxy, admit it:smile08: Only articles and TV shows:smile26:

Ah, Nowizard, if you only knew....but never mind. I admit, I know a lot about Orthodoxy, unfortunately. It might have been better not to know, maybe I would have been more tolerant of all this. In general, of course, people in Orthodoxy pray to "intermediaries," but the point is that pagan gods are also a kind of "intermediaries," and not God himself. So, there is a clear continuity.
Anyway, I won't play on your nerves anymore:)

In any case, the one who believes he is right is right. There is no other way, because when a person does or says something, he believes that he is right, and therefore he is right (by free will), he becomes wrong only when he realizes his wrongness. This is a simple philosophy. Everyone else may think that the person is wrong, but as long as he himself believes that he is right, he is right for himself.
Настоящие герои - не те, пред кем мы преклоняемся, а те, кого мы оплевываем...[/COLOR]
-----------------------------
"So much has gone
and little is new"

David Bowie
In reply to Ganymed
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Ganymed;82229
Ah, Nowizard, if you only knew....but never mind. I must admit, I know a lot about Orthodoxy, unfortunately. It would have been better not to know, maybe I would have been more tolerant of all this. In general, of course, people pray to "intermediaries" in Orthodoxy, but the point is that pagan gods are also a kind of "intermediaries," and not God himself. So, the continuity is evident.
Anyway, I won't play with your nerves anymore:)
Yes, I believe that the so-called pagan gods are "intermediaries" of God. Wouldn't all the gods and goddesses exist separately from each other!? And also a simple ancient truth, which, I think, you can all complete: "Gods exist as long as they..." ;)


In reply to Ganymed
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Ganymed;82229
Oh, Nowizard, if you only knew....but never mind. I must admit, I know a lot about Orthodoxy, unfortunately. It would have been better not to know; maybe I would have been more tolerant of it. In general, of course, people in Orthodoxy pray to "intermediaries," but the point is that pagan gods are also a kind of "intermediaries," and not God himself. So, there is a clear continuity.
Anyway, I won't play with your nerves anymore. :)

Ultimately, the one who believes they are right is right. There's no other way, because when a person does or says something, they believe they are right, and therefore they are right (by free will). They become wrong only when they realize their own wrongness. That's a simple philosophy. Everyone else may think that the person is wrong, but as long as they themselves believe they are right, they are right for themselves.
Regarding prayers – indeed, how thoroughly the pagans adopted this from us...:rolleyes: ;) :)

Regarding "rightness" – So, if I say that two times two equals thirteen, will I be right? :)
Бог есть любовь
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Doesn't it occur to you that the foundation of any paganism is the belief in God? A single God? Think about it: there are THOUSANDS of pagan religions, and they are all similar, if not identical, but God is one.
This phrase messes with my head. There are indeed many pagan religions, but not all of them are based on the belief in a single God; paganism is paganism because there are many gods... Regarding war, war is objectively evil, but a warrior defending his territory, and therefore fighting, is doing good for his loved ones whom he is protecting. I'm saying that every concept is subjective...
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I agree with Saruman regarding paganism! There are many, and they are actually very different – we just happen to know only the Indo-European and Semito-Hamitic ones well. But look at Chinese paganism, and you'll understand that pagan beliefs differ from each other very significantly.

By the way, the system of the Shintoists is very amusing; they have millions of gods, and new ones appear constantly. It even goes so far that they have a god of the Sony company and a god of steam heating... In fact, these are not even gods, but guardian spirits – and the idea of a single God, with these minor deities acting as intermediaries, is very, very far away...
С Пути сбивают мелкие достижения, а изощрённые суждения скрывают смысл слов. И вот уже возникают "правильное" и "неправильное"...
- Чжуан-цзы
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