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SoD. Rework for Mage Guild. Is it needed or not?
92 voters
Single choice Public votes Closed 2015-06-09
This poll is closed.
Of course, it’s needed
39.1% 36 votes
No, it’s not needed at all
60.9% 56 votes
In reply to Dust_HL
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Dust_HL


Just take a look yourself, without sub-points:

1.1. Mandatory restart
1.2. Restart upon first encounter
1.4. Restart at the player's request if their only path leads to the Guardian
1.5. Restart due to a strong block
2.2. Hit-and-run is prohibited:
2.3. It is forbidden to take monsters that want to join.
2.4. The Spell "Dimensional Gate":
2.5. It is forbidden to visit Cartographers and Fort on the Hill
2.6. Transitions between zones.
2.7. Visiting objects, taking items
2.8. Restrictions on castles.
2.10. Restrictions on the heroes Izra and Vidomina.
2.11. Magic Scrolls of levels 4 and 5
2.12. The Grail can be dug up after 5 weeks of play.
2.13. Bugs:


I have a legitimate question: why is the presence of a free control on the HL map not considered "overpowered" and is not being fixed, because this would be stricter than many of the points that have already been banned!!?

These rules have always existed, not just on HotA, for example, also on HotP. The difference in the Necropolis of Izra and Vidomina is that they could not be upgraded to Expert because they had to be dismissed; here it is slightly different. It is unclear why there is a mention of an overpowered control at all. At least two players can find it. :confused:
In reply to Heroin_HP
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Heroin_HP
These rules have always been in place not only on ХВ, but also on ХП, for example. The difference in Necropolis with Isra and Vidomina was that they couldn't level up to expert because they had to be dismissed; here it's slightly different. It's not clear at all why there's a dig about imbalanced control. At least two players can find it :confused:
Not clear? That's unfortunate.
Тот, кто борется - может проиграть, кто нет - проиграл уже (с)
В прошлом "Координатор турниров Лиги Героев" (www.heroesleague.ru)
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=Lizard=
Friends, those of you who write things similar to what the respected skd explained in the post above, please tell me honestly – have you ever played with a standard in-game map editor setup?

All of this really reminds me of conversations about football among people who have never been in a football club. Of course, I'm not arguing, people here are smart and can draw conclusions based on theory; after all, we're playing a strategy game, not a shooter. However, when talking about football, who would you rather believe: Lionel Messi, who barely finished school, or a professor who has watched football for 30 years and knows more about it in theory than Messi does? I think you'd believe Lionel.

Please spend 2-3 hours of your time and actually find out what we're talking about, and then write, I beg you. Peace to all.
You don't need to be a chef to say that the food is bad.
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Dust_HL
Not clear? That's sad.
And you don't get it—they've been playing by these rules in this game for so many years, and it was fine. And control wasn't considered OP) And here you come with your common sense, acting like you've just opened your eyes to the fact that everything before was OP). Well then, all the tournament winners aren't actually winners, but luckers who found control!
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Heroin_HP
Don't you understand? People have been playing by these rules for years, and everything was fine. And they didn't consider control to be overpowered. But now you come along with your "common sense" and act like you've just discovered that everything that existed was overpowered. So, according to you, all the tournament winners weren't really winners at all, but just lucky people who found a good control strategy!
I understand that another argument of the SoD (Stronghold of the Dragon) supporters has been debunked, those who lament its purity and inviolability! Those who shout the loudest – "leave SoD alone, it's perfect, nothing needs to be changed!"
It has been debunked by the very rules and prohibitions they created, which show that the balance of pure SoD is far from ideal and unplayable at a serious level in its basic version, and they themselves admit this by creating these very rules, but they forgot about at least ONE more thing.

And to your "arguments" about "playing for so many years and everything being fine," I can answer with the same: "in 2000-2005, they also played by their own rules... and also considered them normal for many years," until the understanding of the game changed, and the possibility of improving the game's balance with ERM scripts appeared – I remember going through all of this myself, believe me!
Тот, кто борется - может проиграть, кто нет - проиграл уже (с)
В прошлом "Координатор турниров Лиги Героев" (www.heroesleague.ru)
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Dust_HL
I understand that another argument of the SoD supporters has been refuted, who complain about its pristine and untouched nature! Those who shout the loudest - "leave SoD alone, it's perfect, nothing needs to be changed!".
It has been refuted by the rules and restrictions they created themselves, which show that the balance of pure SoD is far from ideal and not playable in its basic version at a serious level, and they themselves admit this by creating these very rules, but they forgot about at least ONE more thing.

And your "arguments" about - "we've been playing for so many years and it's been fine," I can answer with the same - "in 2000-2005 we also played by our own rules... and also thought they were normal for many years," until the understanding of the game changed, and the possibility of using ERM scripts to improve the game's balance appeared - I remember going through all this myself, believe me!
Well, in World of Xeen, you changed it so much that no one plays it anymore!
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Heroin_HP
Well, in HotA, you made so many changes that no one plays it anymore!
Let's be objective, people don't play it because of the large number of bugs in the scripts, because of the desynchronization, because of the "gray castles" that players repeatedly encountered in serious tournaments, including those in the CIS region, and this caused a lot of inconvenience, which discouraged them! But not because of the stupid balance and clumsy new features.
Тот, кто борется - может проиграть, кто нет - проиграл уже (с)
В прошлом "Координатор турниров Лиги Героев" (www.heroesleague.ru)
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skd

As for the rebuilding on HL itself - I believe it can be added to 8mm6a and 8xm8a where there are few secondaries and you can't put Mage Guild 5 in all of them; imho on Spider, 8xm12a or 6lm10a there are enough secondaries where guilds can be built up. The question regarding rebuilding on these templates is only a matter of strategy (building one guild in the farthest part of the map so as not to give it to the opponent is much more profitable and safer). After all, building a Mage Guild in a village in the center of the map is risky.
Some reference materials. Number of neutral villages on hl+y templates:
8mm6a - 6
8xm8a - 8
Spider - 8
6lm10a - 8
8xm12a - 12
Iamsamstan

Rebuilding the guild will add something to the game that wasn't there before and, thus, create a precedent and give reason for those who love changes and improvements to introduce other precedents into SoD, changing the game itself, isn't that how it actually works?

So you think the neutral management mode isn't a precedent?

In general, I agree with those who voted against, but I voted for because I believe that a checkbox won't make things worse. It seems like no one suffered from the neutral management checkbox?
ICQ 423164784

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Why try to make something good out of something bad?
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Sanin
Some reference material. The number of neutral villages on HL+U templates:
8mm6a - 6
8xm8a - 8
Spider - 8
6lm10a - 8
8xm12a - 12
The purpose of this information is to determine how many towns can be captured in 1-2 weeks. On 8mm6a and 8xm8a, it's not possible to capture many, which is why I believe that restructuring will be beneficial for these templates.

UTC+03:00, icq 593626431
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Dust_HL
Let's be objective: people don't play because of the large number of bugs in the scripts, because of the desynchronization, because of the "gray castles" that they repeatedly encountered in serious tournaments, including those in the CIS region, and this caused a lot of inconvenience, which discouraged them! But not because of the stupid balance and clumsy innovations.

I approve. Otherwise, the illusionists will show up)

Added 1 minute ago
Sanin
Here is some reference material. The number of neutral villages on HL+U templates:
8mm6a - 6
8xm8a - 8
Spider - 8
6lm10a - 8
8xm12a - 12


So, according to you, the control mode for neutrals is not a precedent?

In general, I agree with those who voted against, but I voted for it because I believe that a checkbox won't make things worse. Has a checkbox for controlling neutrals made things worse for anyone?

Just like the checkbox for the mandatory 2nd level, by the way


In reply to The_
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The_
Let's add a checkbox to the creature upgrade feature, say, up to level 4-5.
Freedom for the pink hippos!

P.S. I couldn't find a picture of a hippo, so – freedom for the pink dragons!
P.S.S. Those who haven't tried it shouldn't talk; let's introduce it, and you'll like it!
P.S.S.S. To be sure that something is bad, you don't necessarily have to try it; or, a more sophisticated example:
- Excuse me, if I go that way, will I find the train station?
- Yes, it will be there, even if you don't go that way.
Although, this is the main argument of the "daddies" :).
P.S.S.S.S. It would be better if more mirror matches were created on the forums than these pointless arguments.

I was already thinking of nominating player Lider1 for the "Troll Leader" nomination, even renaming his nickname to reflect that status, but then a player with an underscore in his name intervened...

But seriously, I think it's time to stop arguing, add the checkbox, and run a couple of test tournaments over the year; that will show. And then, after the tournaments, conduct a vote among those who participated, but not among the trolls and those who haven't tried it, IMHO.
Хаос - это порядок, которым сложнее управлять.

icq: 407907277
skype: piterius_i

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Dagr
Why turn something bad into something even worse?
People are still playing this game, and some are even competing for money and defending titles like "Champion of the CIS region," trying to determine the best player...
Тот, кто борется - может проиграть, кто нет - проиграл уже (с)
В прошлом "Координатор турниров Лиги Героев" (www.heroesleague.ru)
In reply to Dust_HL
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Dust_HL
The same thought occurred to me after reading skd's post! If you haven't played with the rebuild mechanic, why are you commenting? It's not as scary as you make it out to be!
What does the Warlords rebuild mechanic have to do with this?
First, we need to clarify which rebuild mechanic we're talking about; Comrade Cobra is clearly not talking about the Warlords rebuild mechanic!
1) It was mentioned that the cost of upgrading floors would increase during the rebuild.
2) It was said that it would only be possible to rebuild after the building is fully constructed, and not immediately like in Warlords.
3) The balance of schools in Warlords is slightly different; if you want an expert Town Portal, you have to sacrifice either earth or air. Speed, slowness, Town Portal, and Direct Damage are different in different schools. And some things will be available without an expert. In SOD, all of this is in two schools, and everything will be on expert difficulty. These are different things! Plus, Armageddon was mentioned, and it's not nonsense, because this isn't Warlords, where its damage was reduced and put into the 5th-level spellbook. There's probably a reason for that, right? So, this isn't exactly the Warlords rebuild mechanic.

And yes, I was talking about the Warlords rebuild mechanic, and I mentioned that they would be rebuilding the first guild immediately to find spells for the canned goods. Cobra and Javdet laughed and wrote that it was nonsense; it will work differently, not like in Warlords.
So, even the supporters "for" haven't decided what the rebuild mechanic will be, and every time they talk about different options, without deciding what they are actually voting for.
Мой ник Heroes, и никто не вынесет меня
Скажу я вам, мои друзья.
Я некромант, я маг великий, и армия моя
Непобедимая, огромная!
In reply to Piterius
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Piterius


But seriously, I think it's time to stop arguing, add a checkbox, and run a couple of trial tournaments throughout the year. That will show us what works. And then, after those tournaments, conduct a vote among the participants, but not among trolls and those who haven't tried it, in my opinion.
He said it decisively. Cobra is already making changes, and Piterius is already planning to organize tournaments. Aren't you taking on too much? Well, Cobra at least held a vote, where his idea is currently being rejected, but where are you going, Pete?

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