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It also states: The level of confidence in the national currency on the domestic and foreign markets... What's not clear about that?

I understand that this is a factor; I just didn't understand in which direction the line of reasoning was being led. That is, was everything fine before, and everyone trusted the national currency, but now they don't? Because of the Maidan? Well, if that's the case, then further discussion is pointless. I agree, I'm wasting my time.

Added 3 minutes ago

And as a financial expert, I should know that the example of the dollar's exchange rate growth in Russia, compared to the exchange rate growth in Ukraine, is, to put it mildly, out of place. The national currency is also falling in Zimbabwe.

As a financial expert, I can only react to this like this: :smile35:

Added 2 minutes ago

Yes, I don't like the Maidan, because of which prices have already risen, I don't like that it already has!
a huge amount of budget money has already been spent on this Maidan, and most importantly, I don't like that as a result, we are just replacing one bad thing with another.

So, you like how much was spent before? Or, if you don't know, does that mean nothing was spent?

All the specifics of the life of Ukrainians will remain the same, whether they are painted orange or blue.

Well, as long as we reason like this, it will remain that way. If we don't want to change anything ourselves, who will do it for us?

My message is very simple – enough with the nonsense that things will be better in Russia. Read about the world economy and the role of an individual state in it. In any scenario, things can be both better and worse; the question isn't about that, but about the fact that people within the country are dissatisfied with the government. There are many who feel oppressed. I am annoyed by the posts of those who defend the regime, the government, and the Berkut, saying that there is some half of the population who are satisfied, and that the Maidan is just a gathering of rabble. I would call this half of the satisfied population an army of apathetic morons who eat popcorn in front of the TV and judge. I would be very happy to see you standing next to the Berkut, defending the government, when (God forbid, of course) ALL the dissatisfied people rise up. You'll need to bring a lot of extra sets of underwear. It's just annoying:smile51:

Guys, this is a real Bandera supporter, how long can we tolerate the antics of this scum? Beat him up! :smile12:

As much as I'd like to, I can't name a single industry that could be considered cutting-edge.

What about the liquor and vodka industry? I heard that the products of this industry are in good demand abroad. :)

It’s great to see, fellow Ukrainian brothers, that you care about Ukraine! The whole country is rising up against the fascist regime of Yanek! They are storming the ODAs in the west and east of the country!

...So, before everything was fine, and everyone trusted the national currency, but now they don't? Because of Maidan? Well, if that's the case, then yes, further discussion is pointless. I agree, I'm wasting my time...

Before, when was that? A hundred years ago? Yes, there was trust. In Europe, they accepted imperial rubles for payment. They no longer accepted Soviet tens, but they could be exchanged. Which was also not bad. But Ukrainian hryvnias cannot be exchanged even in Russia. I hope the trend is clear.

Regarding 2013, it is enough to compare the funds placed by the population in deposits, for example, in September and in January 2014. And if the difference is not visible, then we are really wasting our time.

And what about the liquor and vodka industry? I was told that the products of this industry are in good demand abroad. :)

Well, yes, they are. In Russia. Ukrainian swill is cheaper than local swill.

A text about Kyiv today from my acquaintance: (sorry for the length, and for the rambling :D) "You know why we have already won? I'm not saying "Euromaidan won," because it's not about Europe. I'll start by paying tribute to the opposition. Let's say you're all right, and everything that happened is a redistribution of power for other oligarchs, or a conspiracy by the US, Russia, the Masons, or anyone else. But... I realized that we won: - When I saw priests of different faiths and religions standing between the Berkut and the protesters. - When, coming out of the subway, I first saw a huge army tent that said "Donetsk, Mariupol, Yenakievo," and on the wall were laser projections of a monument to the soldiers who liberated the city and the Eternal Flame. - When in the middle of Maidan, next to a portrait of the deceased Misha Zhiznevsky, there was a stack of bread, a candle, and a six-liter plastic container with the top cut off, and next to it was a sign that said "for the funeral." The container was full of money, but no one looked at it, because everyone knew that no one would take anything from it. - When I saw guys from Donetsk singing a song with guys wrapped in the UPA flag. - When the blind and people with cerebral palsy helped to carry tea and cut sandwiches. - When my friends from other regions sent me money, asking me to help those who were freezing with warm socks. - When I sang the anthem in a chorus with several hundred thousand people at the same time. - When I saw drunk people being led away from the entrance to the perimeter, and they were ashamed. - When, during the assault, people didn't run away from the Berkut squad that ran out, but ran towards them. - When a guy in a balaclava played the piano against the backdrop of burning tires. - When, after a month and a half of Maidan, in the center of which is the glass dome of the "Globus," not a single section of the dome was broken. - When the staff of the cultural center brought a field kitchen and cooked borscht for everyone who was cold. - When, during the night attempt by the Berkut and the Internal Troops to drive people out of Maidan, several tens of thousands of people arrived in an hour and a half; taxi drivers and private drivers were taking passengers for free if the destination was Maidan. - When, in almost all cities, ultras (!!!) came to protect the protesters from possible attacks and provocations. - When I saw a squad of combat grandmothers-valkyries in carnival masks with bowls on their heads - "are you going to arrest us too?" - When, after the assault, I bought medicine at the pharmacy according to a list, and only the leftovers were left, and the pharmacist said to me with a smile, "almost everything has already been taken." - When my apolitical and not very radical friends were on duty at night in different districts, patrolling the streets for unrest. - When my friends from Russia wrote to me that they were ready to come or help with money at any moment. - When I first felt that I loved Ukraine. I don't know who will be in power now, what the fate of the country will be, whether there will be a division, decentralization, or whether nothing will change in politics at all, but I definitely know that I live among wonderful, kind, magical people; I know that on Maidan, guys from Donetsk fraternized with guys from Lviv, students read poetry to the proletariat, ultra-right-wingers carried stunned anarchists off the battlefield, and Krishna devotees danced next to Orthodox Christians. And this is a victory that no Masonic plan can overshadow. Lord, thank you for letting me live during a time of change and see all this with my own eyes. Rest the souls of those who died in this war, give health to ordinary people, extremists, police officers, Berkut soldiers - everyone who suffered from the cold, bullets, fire, or blows. Send us all wisdom and Love, and first of all - love for those who, by the will of fate, are considered our enemies. Because if we have Love, we will have victory. Thank you, Ukrainians, Russians, Belarusians, Georgians, Armenians, and all the other wonderful people I see smiling and determined at minus twenty degrees and not going to retreat. I love you."

Excerpt from a dialogue with one of my friends from Kyiv, very sensible thoughts IMHO: I: Well, what's the general mood in your society in Dnipro? P: I can't speak for everyone, but in my circle, opinions are mixed; some support it, others don't care. I: It's bad that they don't care. There has never been such lawlessness. The police and bandits are acting together openly. This is a complete disaster. I: People are simply being kidnapped by the police and handed over to the bandits. Then they are found beaten or killed. How can one live like this? P: Well, this lawlessness has been going on for a long time, that's why people rebelled. I: My father is a colonel in the Ministry of Internal Affairs. He is already retired. I grew up and was proud that he was a policeman. But now, law enforcement officers are some kind of freaks. It's offensive. And they are still paid salaries from our taxes. What a mess... P: I've already gotten used to the fact that the current generation of police officers is 98% just not the same people anymore; I'm not at all surprised by what's happening. I: And how can one live in this country? As long as you don't step on anyone's toes, you won't be bothered, but if you cross someone, you're screwed. And why is this crap acceptable to the residents of Donbas? P: Because they were just pulled out of the mud; it's a subsidized region, what did you expect? They will tear it apart until the end. I: Yeah... They are all arguing with each other, proving that they are feeding the whole country. Ugh... Pathetic people... P: The main message for those who don't care is that they don't believe that anything will really change. P: They say that they will continue to steal, there will always be scoundrels, and in general, what kind of democracy is there if our destiny is a harsh authoritarianism, only that will bring order, and it's useless to prove anything, you won't prove anything, I'm tired. P: The proportion of undecided, apathetic people is very large in our country. I: The problem is not in the theft. Their golden toilets don't bother anyone. The problem is that they wanted to abolish the principle of the change of power. Like, they elected the people from Donetsk, and that's it - it's forever. P: Yes, we have many problems. Not everyone sees and understands them. I: Everything else can be solved. The change of power is the most important thing! And if the power comes to stay forever, it will relax, become complacent, and become unaccountable. Then everyone is screwed. I: The last elections are indicative. It doesn't matter how people vote - it matters how they count. The courts are controlled. There are no legal ways. The vote in the Rada on January 16 shows that you can pass anything you want, and there are no legal ways to change anything. That's why the only ways to change anything are illegal. P: But wasn't it the same before? I: Of course, it wasn't. There were abuses of power at the local level, but not on such a scale. Before, the courts and the police were much more honest. There wasn't such a strong merger of power and crime. Where have you seen police protecting criminals who beat and rob ordinary people? P: Whoever has more power wins the elections. When Yushchenko won after the unrest, it just meant that power was not sufficiently usurped by one side. Yanukovych played better, IMHO. I: You're right that power wasn't usurped before. Now, the chances of a legitimate change of power are zero. P: It became obvious to me right after the elections. None of my circle voted for him, but he won. How is that possible? I: I repeat: the most important principle of a normal country - the change of power - has been violated. Otherwise, we will turn into Turkmenistan. And for hundreds of years, the Yanukovychs will be in power, they will pass power on by inheritance. That's why all sensible and forward-thinking people are fed up with this. Except for Donbas! P: Well, it's the same in Russia and Belarus. P: Why can't it be the same with us? Ordinary people don't even worry about it. I: Don't confuse. It's a different picture. Russia is very diverse. There are many nationalities and mental differences. They cannot act as a united front. Only the Caucasus is united. But there is a war there. Belarus is also different. 70% of the people love Batka, but 70% of us hate Batya. Lukashenko was a former collective farm worker and turned Belarus into a big collective farm. And our president is a thug and turned Ukraine into a zone. I: Russia has driven the struggle for power underground. Hence, the terrorist attacks. Why do we need this? I: I'm just saying that we have a different situation. The main thing is not to be passive. They will disperse hundreds of times, arrest thousands, but they will not be able to cope with tens of thousands. The main thing is not to be indifferent and apathetic, and to think that you will be spared.

Added 8 minutes ago

What was it like before? A hundred years ago? Yes, there was trust. In Europe, they accepted tsarist rubles for payment. They no longer accepted Soviet tens, but they could be exchanged. Which was also not bad. But now, Ukrainian hryvnias cannot be exchanged even in Russia. I hope the trend is clear.

I'm sorry, but we're speaking different languages. It has always been difficult to sell hryvnias in Russia, not just now during the Maidan. I don't understand what tsarist rubles have to do with trust in the hryvnia before and after the Maidan? You are discussing the tip of the iceberg, while all the problems are deeper and wider. According to your logic, you can safely say that Gorbachev is to blame for the collapse of the USSR, etc. Let's not waste time. Thank you.

Basically, I understand. All supporters don't care what will happen next; the main thing is that society is ready and has the right to take to the streets and demonstrate its will. Let's have early elections! The next one, whoever it is, if they don't satisfy us, we'll take to the streets again. If they start acting up, we'll tear half of Kyiv apart and put someone new in their place. So, until we find someone worthy...

In Donetsk, Yanukovych’s supporters gathered for a rally with baseball bats, didn’t find any Maidan supporters, and ended up beating each other up)) http://novosti.dn.ua/details/216967/

Added 7 minutes later

Excerpt from a dialogue with one of my friends from Kyiv; very insightful thoughts, in my opinion:

Even if the person is right, their position is completely unproductive. Because it's just constant complaining – no analysis, no predictions, no constructive suggestions.

In diplomacy, the key to success is properly formulated demands. A demand like "Yanukovych must resign" is poorly formulated. Firstly, because he won't leave on his own, and secondly, because it won't solve the problem.

For example, he talks about police abuse. So, that's where we should focus. Gather the most egregious examples of systemic abuse, publish them with names, dates, and documents, and then organize protests with slogans like: "The heads of police in these districts must be brought to justice."

And Yanukovych could very well satisfy this demand – it wouldn't be difficult for him to sacrifice a few perpetrators to preserve the system as a whole.

Then, a chain reaction will occur – a few will be arrested, and the rest will be more careful. Those who don't understand the first time can be dealt with in the same way, even without protests; a public appeal to Yanukovych would suffice: "A couple more need to be sent after them; maybe we can avoid protests this way, right?"

This is a constructive solution to the problem. The problem is that the US and the EU are not interested in this, so they won't prepare or pay for a protest to achieve it. We'll have to do it ourselves.

Even if the guy is right, his position is completely non-constructive. Because it's just pure whining — no analysis, no forecast, no constructive proposals.

In diplomacy, the key to success is correctly formulated demands. An option like "Yanukovych must resign" is a incorrectly formulated demand. Firstly, because he won't leave on his own, and secondly, because it won't solve the problem.

For example, he talks about police brutality. That is exactly where one should dig. Collect the most egregious facts of systemic abuse, publish them with names-dates-documents, and then go out to protest with slogans: "The police chiefs of such-and-such districts must be brought to trial."

And this demand Yanukovych could quite easily satisfy — it's not hard for him to sacrifice a few subordinates to preserve the system as a whole.

Then comes the chain reaction — a few will be imprisoned, others will become more cautious. Those who don't get it the first time will follow the same path; this could even happen without a protest, a public appeal to Yanukovych would suffice: "A couple more need to be sent after them, maybe we can avoid a protest, eh?"

Now that is a constructive solution to the problem. The fact of the matter is that the US and EU are not interested in this, so they won't prepare or pay for a protest for this purpose. We'll have to do it ourselves.

How do you imagine collecting materials? Where would you get them and who would collect them, given that there is a wall of silence/mutual cover-up? Look, some guy published a video of how a Berkut officer mocks a stripped Maidan protester, then fled the country because he understands what threatens him. There is brutality in every city; in EVERY CITY people are dissatisfied. That's why they demand the replacement of the Entire government. You don't understand how much people have their teeth sharpened for the "members of the family"; as soon as Maidan wins, many heads will roll both figuratively and literally. Without this factor, regardless of whether it's paid for or not, the people wouldn't have risen. Gouged eyes, punctured heads, corpses outside the city — would someone do that just for money? All these intimidation factors only strengthen the general dissatisfaction.
The dialogue itself doesn't claim to be constructive; there is plenty of that on the Maidan anyway. The government has shit themselves and doesn't know what to do, it's the same trouble with the opposition, but sooner or later the people will choose their own leader, or there will be a force-based scenario with unknown consequences. That's roughly the forecast.

For you, supporting the Maidan's point of view, is a forceful approach with unknown consequences acceptable? Hmm... what can I say, there's an absolute lack of understanding of what such an approach will lead to.

How do you envision it?

Well, I envision it as I described. Many people somehow believe that fighting against the authorities is a safe or should be a safe endeavor. You sit on the couch, sip tea, and fight against the authorities. However, all historical experience shows that only those with enough courage succeed in fighting against the authorities. The Bolsheviks were imprisoned and exiled many times before they seized power. Also, in addition to courage, it is desirable to have a clear head, at least to avoid losing it. Every system has weak points that can be undermined relatively safely. You say that there is a system of mutual support. It exists everywhere – organized power structures (both the authorities and the criminal underworld, and diasporas) are built on the fact that members of these structures a priori support each other in confrontation with the outside world. However, there are always weak links that the structure can discard if a threat arises. In addition, there are always tensions within each structure, which are all the stronger the more confident the structure feels. These can also be used. The example of Yanukovych and the heads of police departments illustrates this clearly. But let's assume that it is difficult to carry out such a large-scale undermining right away. Then we start small – a rally in front of the police station, a complaint to the station chief about the illegal actions of his subordinate. With enough publicity, it is easier for the chief to get rid of a low-ranking policeman than to try to cover for him. Especially if he has really messed up. You yourself have experience in managing people, and you probably understand that the actions of subordinates that contradict instructions and regulations create a lot of trouble for the boss. But it is difficult to fight them, and not always necessary; it is easier to buy the loyalty of subordinates by turning a blind eye to their antics. Therefore, only a small percentage of such actions are carried out with the direct permission of the boss; in most cases, it is an initiative. For which the boss may well punish them if he receives an external signal to do so. But the main point is that whining is in any case a non-constructive activity. Because the energy of whiners will be used by people of action, but in their own interests, not in the interests of the whiners. The Maidan is an example of this.

The idea of making Yanek punish lower-ranking officers of the Berkut or the Ministry of Internal Affairs is relevant. Yes, it would send a message to the entire group of fascists in uniform that they will be held accountable for their actions. But Yanek promised the entire Berkut that he would not punish anyone, and so far, he has kept his word. The Berkut has not been punished even for the beating of students on November 30; it has already been 2 months. And, most importantly, this idea is not relevant at this historical moment – a complete overhaul of the government is needed.

For you, supporting the viewpoint of the Maidan, is a forceful approach with unknown consequences acceptable? Hmm... what can I say, it shows an absolute lack of understanding of what such an approach will lead to.

Usually, when there is nothing to say on the subject, people write short, limited statements based on their own worldview, followed by conclusions based on their own assumptions. Thanks, captain!
I think I'll go do something more useful.