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Offline LeBron
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#5383
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Lim4
It seems the original sources are in Ukrainian. The person is trying, and you...
Well, I, for example, don't share his point of view. Why shouldn't I express it in a thread specifically created for this purpose?

"Это нам идеально подходит!" [Новосибирск, 2013]
"Красавчик! Если только не читер.." [Киев, 2014]
"Это Вам не шутки - нажрался Dust в маршрутке" [Новокузнецк, 2015]
Сам ты фиш (с) :D
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Offline Lim4
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#5384
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Javdet
sweet girl, people are taking advantage of you, but you don't even notice the foreign object.
Javdet, I already know that you think everyone around you is being taken advantage of, that everyone is just a herd, that everything will be bad, and that only the chosen ones are familiar with Makarevich's work)

Added 2 minutes later
LeBron
well, for example, I don't share his point of view. Why shouldn't I express this in a topic specifically designed for that?
What bothered me was that there are not only articles with points of view, but also descriptions of events, testimonies, and you're labeling Aripoutra.
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Offline Antoshka
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#5385
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darkello
People are like a herd, and a led one at that; 95% don't even understand what they are fighting for or what goals they are pursuing.
The figure is clearly underestimated. At least 99.99% don't understand what their actions will lead to.
But overall, one can sympathize with the population living in Ukraine. In my opinion, there are only two ways out of the current situation.
1. With minimal bloodshed – this is the forceful establishment of order (1,000-10,000 casualties).
2. With significant bloodshed – this is the overthrow of the government and the destruction of the state apparatus. How painful this will be for the population can be compared to similar situations in Tsarist Russia after the revolution and the situation after the collapse of the USSR in the 1990s.

Unfortunately, Yanukovych is not capable of following the first path. Perhaps I am wrong... But the example of when he won the presidential election – the people went to Maidan, and he handed over power to a gang of charlatans – only strengthens me in this opinion.
For 5-10 years, there will be anarchy and attempts to build a new state apparatus.
It's all very sad.

By the way, in the second scenario, power will be seized by some kind of swindler, capable of grabbing the biggest piece, but not knowing what to do with it. Like Yeltsin or Lenin.
And Yanukovych is an analogue of Nicholas II or Gorbachev – incapable of making decisions and managing the situation. The weakness of power in all its glory leads to anarchy. Of course, one can look for who orchestrated all this... but the key problem is the weakness of power. Everything else is details that are adjusted by the people who benefit from it.
Similar events were also attempted in Russia, but Putin does not suffer from a weakness of power...
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Offline LeBron
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#5386
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Well, Aripoutra's articles are also based on something, on someone's "authoritative" point of view.

"Это нам идеально подходит!" [Новосибирск, 2013]
"Красавчик! Если только не читер.." [Киев, 2014]
"Это Вам не шутки - нажрался Dust в маршрутке" [Новокузнецк, 2015]
Сам ты фиш (с) :D
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Offline Javdet
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#5387
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Lim4
Javdet, I already know that you think everyone else is being exploited, that everyone is just part of the herd, that everything will be bad, and that only the chosen few are familiar with Makarevich's work.
Well, as expected, there's no constructive feedback in your response, just a veiled attack. Yes, Makarevich isn't my favorite artist, but this text is perfectly relevant here...
Is the position of "not wanting to be someone's leech" a valid one? Or not?))))
Даже если вас съели - у вас два выхода:smile19:

Зима 2011-12.
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Offline Lim4
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#5388
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LeBron
Well, Ariputra's articles are also based on something, on someone's "authoritative" point of view :)
There are points of view, and here there are descriptions of events. These are different things.

Added 1 minute ago
Javdet
well, as expected - there is 0 constructiveness in the answer, only a veiled attack. Yes, Makarevich is not a favorite performer, but this text is very appropriate here...
You wanted constructiveness in response to a rude statement that I'm being taken advantage of and I don't notice? You surprised me.
And Makarevich has excellent poems, sometimes the music even spoils them)
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Offline LeBron
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#5389
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Lim4
There are points of view, and here are descriptions of events. These are different things.
Well, personally, this description of events raises a lot of doubts for me, which is why I'm making an analogy with Aripudra...
too bad he's not in the thread, Kostyan, maybe we should unban him? :D

"Это нам идеально подходит!" [Новосибирск, 2013]
"Красавчик! Если только не читер.." [Киев, 2014]
"Это Вам не шутки - нажрался Dust в маршрутке" [Новокузнецк, 2015]
Сам ты фиш (с) :D
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Offline Javdet
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#5390
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Lim4

Were you looking for constructive feedback on the rude statement that I'm being taken advantage of, and I don't notice?
It's either an assertion or a statement of fact. There's no point in arguing further, as trying to reason with someone who holds strong beliefs using logical arguments and obvious facts is a hopeless endeavor – gg, thanks for your time.
Даже если вас съели - у вас два выхода:smile19:

Зима 2011-12.
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Offline Piterius
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#5391
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Alone
I'm willing to bet that integration with Europe will not bring any economic benefits. Europe is currently struggling with its own internal problems and will not help its eastern neighbors. Just remember how "enthusiastically" money was allocated to support Greece. Against the backdrop of the budget deficits of Italy, Spain, Greece, etc., Ukraine is not needed by anyone there, except perhaps as a promising sales market. If any financial assistance is provided, it will be on draconian terms.

Alone, in the form of Russia, is ready to offer us help on less draconian terms. But why do we need your help? All these statements about loans and investments are just empty rhetoric; the money is distributed at the top. Take off your rose-colored glasses. Do you know the volume of foreign investment in the Ukrainian economy? Zero point zero! All foreign investments are the money of our magnificent ten oligarchs, taken out to offshore accounts and then funneled back under the guise of foreign investments. No one from the real sector of the European (or Russian) economy wants to invest money in this bandit state because it is impossible to get it back! Only those loyal to the government are investing. It is normal when 90% of GDP is based on kickbacks from large businesses? Let's strengthen this position together, our eastern friends!

Alone, honestly, you're starting to annoy me by constantly mentioning Greece and Spain with their unemployment rates; add Portugal – you forgot! Is that it? 50% of unemployed idlers sit at home (or go to bars for a siesta, collecting receipts for compensation) and receive benefits, which they are quite happy with. One person in the family works, the other receives benefits; they have a budget, so why are you worried about them? Yes, there is no work, and this is partly due to the army of our own migrant workers. But this is a natural process that takes time to correct. However, I am very concerned about the overall trend – it seems that the question of which is better comes down only to the size of the monetary flow for the country and each citizen as a whole, and all the other advantages of European values are overshadowed by tolerance for homosexuality. Is there nothing else to criticize? Should our province also turn into a bunch of monks, it would be more fun to chase away the snake together?
Alone
Currently, there are competitive industries in Ukraine that are linked to Russia (military industry, instrument engineering, space industry). What will happen if these ties are severed? Someone will object: the ties will remain. But no! In order to satisfy political interests, to remain in power and gain trust, to be a pawn of political forces, any leader will sacrifice the most advanced industry. This applies to both your and our leaders.
Some of the agricultural production remains in Ukraine – what will happen if the borders are opened to the European market? Our (your) agriculture is many times less competitive than Western agriculture and will simply be crushed by prices, etc. At the same time, no one will gain access to their markets.

Similar nonsense happened when there were problems with customs with Russia. Yes, they showed their teeth, but what did it lead to for business? Downtime, damage to goods, disruption of contracts? Is it normal when Putin decided to show off? Well, he showed off, good, he quickly realized it was a stupid mistake. Don't worry, the military industry, space industry, and other things will not disappear as long as it is beneficial to both sides; it will continue to work. Stop talking about it.
I don't understand the anecdote about the non-competitiveness of our goods in Europe – I don't understand what you are stuffing them with there? The situation is exactly the opposite; our goods are not allowed into Europe because they are, on the contrary, competitive, and they will not allow them in for a long time, precisely for price reasons, requiring production to be brought up to certain standards. Those who have already done this are now working with Europe; there are many examples.

My message is very simple – stop talking nonsense that things will be better with Russia. Read about the world economy and the role of an individual state in it. In any case, things can be both better and worse; the question is not in this, but in the fact that people within the country are dissatisfied with the government. There are many who feel oppressed. I am annoyed by the posts of defenders of the regime, the authorities, and the Berkut, saying that there is a half of the population who are satisfied, and the rest are just a rabble on the Maidan. I would call this half of the satisfied people an army of apathetic, self-serving people who eat popcorn in front of the TV and judge. I would be very happy to see you next to the Berkut, defending the authorities, when (God forbid, of course) ALL the dissatisfied people rise up. You will need to bring more sets of cowards with you. You're just annoying:smile51:
Хаос - это порядок, которым сложнее управлять.

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Offline Dark30
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#5392
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My message is even simpler: I don't see anyone on either side who is truly capable of leading our country forward. It's a power struggle and a race to fill pockets, and we, as entrepreneurs or people with at least some sense, will be left to deal with the mess, paying for the repairs and everything else after the protests. And those who are currently protesting will eventually leave to exploit other countries, like Italy and Spain. The consequences of all this will be inevitable.
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Offline Alone
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#5393
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I would be very happy to see you standing alongside the Berkut, defending the authorities when (God forbid) all the dissatisfied people rise up. We'll need to bring a lot more sets of riot gear. They're really getting on our nerves:smile51:[/QUOTE]

I wanted to write various analyses about the structure of GDP, Russia's share in exports/imports, the number of Russian-speaking people... But forget it... It seems that the level of rationality is not high enough to perceive facts. Keep your emotions in check, brother, save them for the Berkut... They are to blame for all the troubles.
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Offline Piterius
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#5394
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Alone
I wanted to write various analyses about the structure of GDP, Russia's share in exports/imports, the number of Russian-speaking people... In short, forget it... It seems that the level of rationality is not high enough to perceive facts right now. Keep your emotions in check, brother, for the sake of the "Berkut" riot police... They are to blame for your troubles:rolleyes:

My level of rationality is enough for me to understand that, regardless of the sphere of influence, the share of imports/exports with Russia will not change significantly, and all other conversations and predictions are absolute demagoguery. Forget it, and thank goodness! But I didn't understand, brother, what does the "Berkut" have to do with it? The last paragraph was not addressed to you, don't confuse the sacred with the righteous.

Added 4 minutes later
Dark30
My message is even simpler: I don't see a worthy person on either side who could really move our country forward in any direction. There is a struggle for power and filling pockets by one or the other. And we, entrepreneurs, or people who are more or less intelligent, will have to deal with the mess in any case, the mess that remains after the protests, and we will pay for the repairs and other things... and those who are protesting now will still leave to continue exploiting Italians and Spaniards. The consequences of all that is happening are inevitable.

Everything that is happening is precisely the consequence of what happened before. Well, for those who were sitting in a tank and continue to sit there. The point about the pots is unclear. Those who are destined for pots will do so under any government. The current one has exhausted itself; they want to do it under a different one – what's not clear about that?
Хаос - это порядок, которым сложнее управлять.

icq: 407907277
skype: piterius_i

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Offline Alone
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#5396
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Piterius
I believe my level of rationality is sufficient to understand that, regardless of the sphere of influence, the share of imports/exports with Russia will not change significantly, and all other discussions and predictions are absolute demagoguery. Good riddance! However, I don't understand, Brother, what the "Berkut" has to do with it. The last paragraph is not addressed to you; don't confuse the sacred with the righteous.

Added 4 minutes later


Everything that is happening is precisely a consequence of what happened before. Well, for those who were sitting in a tank and continue to sit there. The message about flower pots is unclear. Those who are destined for flower pots will do so under any government. The current one has exhausted itself; they want to do it under a different one – what's not clear about that?
You divide people into "half of whom I would call an army of indifferent people, eating popcorn in front of the TV and judging," and the dissatisfied. And as is clearly evident from your posts, you (like many others) are very dissatisfied with the government, which has exhausted itself. So, either you are in the first category, eating popcorn in front of the TV, or you are on the Maidan, protesting against the defenders of the government and the Berkut. That's how I reason.
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Offline Dark30
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#5397
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It's unclear what will happen next. Will another "loser" come along and start complaining about the terrible state the country was left in by the previous leaders? Will they tell us that we need to pull ourselves together and be patient? All the while, they'll be lining their own pockets and redistributing the stolen wealth. And the people are supposed to just accept this? We know how this goes, we've been through it before. Changing the order of the terms doesn't change the sum. As for the "pots," what's not to understand? Those who are so eager for European integration don't plan on staying here. They just want to "work" in the EU with some rights. As for the majority of professions, that's already pretty clear. And those who stay don't need European integration; they need clear rules of the game, whether with Europe or without it. Oh, and all this mess will affect those who are currently there, and unfortunately, not in a good way. The dollar is already rising, which means they are becoming poorer, without understanding the basic things.
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