Posts from CIS-2014 in Minsk.

SoD-VT. Showdown. A Cool Oldie.

Introduction. Support. The Present Day.

A Journey into History.

1.

It all started long ago with stories that only "dads" played TE (the predecessor of VT). And on XV, there were only noobs. By the way, back then, 7-8 years ago, that was the case. This impression was especially strong if someone wasn't a local (a TE player) and just came to read the XV threads. The tactics there wrote things that would make you laugh your ass off today. Like, first build a Capitol, and then everything else. Naturally, this spawned rage and "OMG" threads on Baio, like "AAAAAA NOOB LOL LALKAAAA" with links to XV. And the tournaments confirmed this, the so-called inter-portals. Which appeared soon after. TE players really were somewhat of a team, because they played in clubs and most knew each other firsthand, while on XV, everyone played for themselves and never saw another player face to face. And the Baio players played stronger, of course. XV 7 years ago is
GameRanger now.

In general, back then the "dadness" of the TE version was proven by skill. The idea was that SoD was a relic of the past, a half-baked piece of shit with wild imbalance, simply put, GARBAGE. And a VT player could prove with his gameplay that he actually played better than a very good XV SoD player of that time, even on SoD. That opinion has stuck ever since.

For example, there was a TE player named Palladin. He was similar in skill to Alex, but without the try-hard arrogance. Probably that's why he's unknown to the current generation. A normal, adequate guy, played very well. He played SoD here, and there were no questions about it.

2.

In general, at that time there was no HD mod, units were split manually, and troops were also transferred manually, and there were only 4 minutes per turn! And you didn't have to min-max, APM with the mouse was "normal," as was thinking speed. Playing Heroes was a real action. You would think through your moves during your opponent's turn, and sometimes there wasn't even enough time to "think"
during the opponent's turn. Naturally, the so-called "game quality" suffered, because from time to time someone wouldn't make it in time and would get seriously pissed off. But overall, people got used to it. So, back then, asking "do you play SoD?" was really strange, like asking "are you an idiot?" — provided you considered yourself a good player or wanted to become one.
Not trying TE was very bad form.

Time passed, TE kind of went stale, Horn's real-life commitments and all that. And thanks to the enthusiasts Asm and Mi, VT appeared. They started building socialism. Of course, hardened, conservative TE players also whined about "bullshit," like "they removed the TE defense in VT, it became like in SoD" (and that's inherently garbage, so VT is garbage too. I won't play it). Similar things happened. But the majority switched to VT. Because of the global chat, because of simultaneous turns, because of a bunch of other "yummy treats" in the future, because why the hell not!

Naturally, this was a kind of breakthrough. Asm had the desire to do, to create. And he did.

Around that time, vbn wrote a program that transfers troops from hero to hero. That was something! A miracle! Using F10 for troops, F11 for artifacts. SoD players became morally stronger. Because this was already an argument.

Oh, and also. Victor was also involved in underground activities, making TElite. That's for those who want hotkeys, but want to keep the SoD gameplay. but actually it was for luring SoD players to TE.

Soon Baratorch came and made the ND mod. This was a real breakthrough,
no exaggeration, in the Heroes movement. As many people independently said, "nobody needs any VT now!" The ND mod almost instantly killed TElite and diverted the influx of players from "dad VT." Because functionality-wise it wasn't inferior, and many couldn't be bothered to delve into the balance in VT. And it didn't matter anyway, because SoD is for noobs, and VT is for dads. There were also epic crazies like "SoD is for retards." Such speeches in the VT chat were not uncommon. After all, the coolest players in the world! play VT. By the way, this ideology was cultivated on Baio for years. It apparently had a big impact on mental health: "Baio def Portal, def WCL, def XV." On the SoD field. Therefore, TE players are the coolest players in the world, and don't give a shit.

So, we're getting to the most important thing. To VT. Actually, not even to it itself, but to its settings, on which it is played.

3.

!Attention, the author is expressing his opinion, which may influence your beliefs. Remove children from the TV.

What is it? Ah yes, these are the settings that show SKILL. It's the absence of morale, it's dad experience. There is a special article about experience, written by the good uncle Victor /topic/7351/. About layers of the game, about dispersion of layouts, and other smart words.

Sounds good. In reality, the whole essence of the game boils down to grinding that experience. Because in F2B, it's the deciding factor. You can often hear the thesis that "dad gaming is about FIGHTS," like lol, fights with neutrals are the real deal. Therefore, all the time has to be spent chain-farming the map to grind that very experience. Because with it, everything breaks easier. Yes, there are very "dad things," like when 1 black dragon doesn't kill 1 spearman. That's such a lol that it's, like, whoa! Those who haven't played it won't understand. And those who have played will say, "but how am I going to break max cons at 121 without experience?". You get used to nastiness quickly, like to heroin or Jebus Cross, it's already hard to quit. Some VT players compare VT to a Mercedes, and SoD to a Zaporozhets, and that they feel sick getting into a Zapor after a Mercedes. What do you think, can they be understood? Of course they can.
Oh, and also, the map on which they realize their SKILL, it's half-dead. That is, there are monsters, they seem to be from different factions, but in reality they are all zombies (or elementals, whichever is more convenient). Only some have 3 speed, some have 4, and some have 6-7-8, etc. But they are all not alive. Because, no skill at all! Is it a skill if a unit gets moraled, and you win an F2B like that? Of course not, that's dispersion noobbery. That's losing to the map, not to the opponent. And Heroes is a PvP game for those who didn't know, (hehehe).
So, with experience! and without morale! That's it, comrades. That's what VT is all about.
Yes, you can say, welcome dear, come on, I'm ready to play without experience and with morale, no problem, let's go, (I wouldn't even be surprised if someone offers me this after my letter). Such people will be found, and some may take it as a challenge, and others as filling this gap.
BUT IN REALITY. VT without morale is LOL. Because VT and without morale are the same concept. It's the STANDARD. You can find someone to play "Sneya" with, but it's hard. Playing VT tournaments with morale sounds borderline delusional and absurd. You'll be an eternal outcast with such desires. (hold your own tournament? with escorts).

And full VT dad gaming, I won't even mention it. Because it's considered the ultimate Heroes orgasm, cultivated by gentlemen like Victor and those who indulge him, imitate him, and those like him.

But in reality, they are defiled by Vog and those who have blindly believed in their own fairy tale.

"yes, you unchecked the grail-stack checkbox, and I got 10-19 harpies generated in the underworld, with a grail-stack!!! Let's tech-restart!! I'm going to have losses!" WHAT????

Whining, crying "well, the generator doesn't take the grail-stack into account, and it's not fair, well, if it took value into account, then it would be okay. But as it is, no, hell no, I won't"
But the buggy auto-combat (which, by the way, is fixed in ND+) and which is fully used in VT - THAT'S NORMAL. No one even thinks about it. Hydras in utopia-cons are our everything! And no need to go there and fix it! These are features of the game! Cult classics. Be a man!

morale, experience, stack - Damned degradation! Burn in hell, all of you!!!

The game turns into a dull, predictable grind. Almost all battles are against neutrals. For grinding priceless experience. To decide F2B. With the first or second level.

"if you don't want to play with experience, then stay at your own level." - I will stay. You've convinced me. I'll stay!

4. Esports. How we dreamed and how we fucked up.

Well, Chingiz once quoted something about esports, I can say right away - forget it. It's the wet dreams of Victor and his sympathizers. Heroes will never be in esports. NE-VER. Masturbating about it, maybe. But in reality, you won't even get close. Neither mirror nor saucer nor fairy-tale apple will save you. The whining has been going on for a long time, that supposedly in the future VT will become an esports platform, lalala. That's where it stayed.

5. So, software support. Time goes on, games are played, a feeling of completeness from the version is developed. What it is and what it's eaten with. Where are the minor bugs, and where are the major ones. But Asm doesn't seem to care. He's busy, he has a lot of things to do. Heard he plays poker. And a game that stops getting patched doesn't get better year by year and gradually dies.
(And if the last released release is buggy, then that's just the worst!)

6. Advertising. Propaganda. Introduction.

IMHO, they started promoting it fundamentally wrong. To get a typical "blind" SoD player to play VT without feeling disgust or discomfort. Because imagine, an SoD player tries VT FOR THE FIRST TIME, especially if he's already an average or good SoD player, not a noob, he tries it and he's WARY! He's biased! He expects something to be wrong, a catch, everywhere. And
what are these classes, what is this bank, is there no morale? Second levels constantly?:? Hm, what kind of Shit is this? Slow at second level, DD in water, TP in fire, wai-wai-wai, okay. Oh, and there are no Scouting visions in the guild, hm, why? Oh, you need to raise Scouting with some noob to level 7, then it appears, hm, that's what they call dad style, that's dad gaming, right? Got it. To hell with this dad shit. VT is garbage. Forget it. Shift+Delete. A manual with a list of differences for VT? No, haven't heard of it. A real dad has to find out everything himself! And you, learn the material, noob!

Therefore, it should be MAXIMALLY UNDER SoD BY DEFAULT! And only then, over time, they themselves will be interested in trying it. (and those who want to try it will try it anyway.)

Now, with the progress of time, streamers have appeared. People like Twaryna, Amilu, Kalabab, you need to kiss their asses or go through their beds to get their royal highness interested, so they occasionally play VT and show people what it is. That very noobish noob, who over time will want to play Heroes. And so that he wants to do it on VT as well. Or have your own streamers. In a good way. Just not on Teamviewer for a half-dead VT chat, but on
sc2tv. That's when there will be an influx. Not a dick-measuring contest "we are the coolest players in the world, though there are only 4 and a half of us left. We're going to get together and play at the club, though 3 will play poker, and the other 1.5 will drink and chat."

In general, there were programmers with temporary enthusiasm, but there were no marketers, not even by education, but at least by intuition. And the main scourge is giving up.

Take you, Ivor, you made a mirror template. You did a good deed. BUT. Where can it be found? Remember I told you that it should be made publicly available, and you answered something like "those who need it will find it anyway." And you have links on zalil.ru. And who needs it, actually?

The problems are on the surface, most people don't give a damn about what's what, they need to download, open VT - and play. Searching, figuring things out, and also "yay-yay" is not needed by anyone. A manual like FizMig's but only for VT is a must-have.

And again we come to Asm, I heard some patches were made a long time ago, but he DOESN'T HAVE TIME to embed them. And update the game. Bravo, VT rules, always on a horse, as usual. We understand, understand, busy.

7.

In the present day, the process of learning the game has accelerated. Streams help a lot with this. The general skill of players has increased. Once upon a time, even I was told that I was considered a TOP player, now I myself find it funny, because I feel I'm no more than average. Strong SOD players have appeared. The argument by authority doesn't work anymore. I would say, the current generation that came from streams COMPLETELY doesn't give a damn. That only dads play VT. (but the habit of showing off remains, I understand. It's hard for some.) That's how we live.

With this post, I didn't want to offend all VT players, and those who recognized themselves, that means it concerns you. There are also normal people in VT. There are many of them. So I'm not measuring everyone with the same yardstick.

***
Phew, barely squeezed it out. The author has graphomania in its final stage. A fatal outcome is inevitable. Have a nice evening.

Defiant: Pavel Kulakov; Minsk; participant; SoD; 2sm4d(3), 8mm6a, Jebus Cross; 1 laptop; not yet clear; +375293253713

Correct me if I'm wrong, but still... The point here was that on the same HL+U in VT, the strongest player is identified, not the luckiest, because everyone can build control and there are no one-way paths. But the vast majority of losses "by layout" occur because, for example, the starting respawn consists of 60% mountains, the road network is terrible, one person has a couple of high-level external dwellings while the other has nothing, one has cons, and the other has ranged guards everywhere. The probability of gaining an advantage as a result of these initial factors is certainly higher than the absence of control for one and its presence for another in the late game. These probabilities are not taken into account at all in the VT version, except when playing on a mirror template. It turns out that the truly great features that refine the balance are the Mage Guild rebuild and the absence of one-way paths + the availability of mirrors can undoubtedly be considered a plus. A debatable point is the sea artifacts in the Dragon Utopia. As for the rest of the fluff, like creature experience, banks, absence of GS, morale, etc., which is presented as "VT advantages" — it's simply a matter of taste and has no effect on balance.
The factors you mentioned (mountains at respawn, external dwellings, etc.) are exactly what seriously affect noobs. A serious player quickly ignores an unlucky respawn and, starting from the second week, develops from some one-way path, a village surrounded by hives/Dragon Utopia, etc. And factors like "Mage Guild rebuild," "one-way paths," etc., are global and matter in the late game when there is truly nowhere to run. I don't even know how to argue with you... It's like talking to walls.

2Лидер1: read the entire interesting post carefully. There is no more utility or truth here than there is with Scorp. Honestly, I'm too lazy to refute everything point by point. If you want, we can talk in PMs.

2 Lider1
You have so much free time :-)
Take the girl to the movies :-)

The leader wrote a good post, I enjoyed reading it.

I would choose pirates – it’s a real headache, a real pain in the neck (c) Lukashenko.

Lider1, it was interesting to read (:

2 Lizard, please don't talk about Yegor Letov like that. He knew music theory well, and what he created was unique; no one has done anything like it before, and it's unlikely anyone will in the future, because now everyone is more interested in money than in ideas.
2 Lider1, thank you for the article; it's very interesting. I only had a vague idea about VT before.

Funny post :).
By the way, the replays always annoyed me because you couldn't even turn them on. There was an option, but it didn't work. This bug has been around since the game's launch, and I'm almost certain it hasn't been patched yet.

And those who played will say, "But how will I break the maxicons on 121 without experience?". You get used to the bad things quickly, like to Shirev or Jebus...

:D

I remember playing in Odessa with Medium, he had the HD mod, and I didn't, because I was using someone else's laptop. And we couldn't play properly because there was a constant desynchronization. Medium would save, restart the game without the mod, and attack. And so it was every time. Thank God there weren't many of them.
And once, I wanted to install the HD mod on my own game, but I couldn't. The game would freeze with an unpredictable frequency the first time I entered a castle at the beginning of the game.

Regardless of the political and religious views of the participants in the dispute, I would like to note the following: CIS-2014 is most likely the last major event on Warlords. There are many reasons for this, and they have been mentioned more than once. I don't particularly like this, but that's just how life has turned out, and I can't overcome these reasons, and I don't know who can (and wants to at the same time). Therefore, CIS-2015 will be held either on SoD or HotA. I hope for the latter, but this is no longer up to me. Regarding CIS-2014, I don't want to make a clone of the championship in Kyiv; I even less want to deal with version compatibility issues, simply because it doesn't solve the problem, but creates a headache and negativity. It is better to choose the option that will suit the largest number of potential participants. In this case, this is Warlords without experience, tax, bank, or classes. The list of templates is the same as in CIS-13, maybe without CM and Mini-Nosty (they are practically not played on Warlords). That is, Jebus, Diamond, 8mm6a, 6lm10a, h3dm1. If there is a shortage of time, XLs are removed from the list (this was the case in some rounds in Odessa).

It's better to choose the option that will suit the largest number of potential participants. In this case, it's a variant without experience, tax, bank, or classes.

But still, I'm for the variant. :D
P.S. I don't agree with templates = there were too many long games in EKaterinburg ;)

Since there was such a party going on, let me also describe my impressions of WT from a "new school" perspective. Inspired by a post from The_...

Backstory...

Like most people who played Heroes with computers or hotseat, when I came to HeroesWorld I felt like a "papashka". I beat a few others like me, scoured the forum, and realized I was ready for WT (end of 2011, WT at its peak). I downloaded WT, installed it. Trying to install HD on it took a week; with great difficulty I managed it. I waltz in like a "papa" into the chat. There's some discussion going on. After an hour of trying to find an opponent, eventually someone from the "fathers" decided to play with me, a noob. After a brief dialogue about settings, of which I knew absolutely nothing, I was offered to start via GR. I also had no idea who GR was, and was told to go study the basics. I learned the basics later, but that fact completely killed my desire to play WT...

Later, I occasionally still had the urge to try WT, but it was crushed by the local community's disregard for "new school" players.

Summary: HeroesWorld does a lot to attract new players. Things like "Newbies", streams, tournaments, and so on. WT is Olympus — its own rules, its own clique, newcomers are not welcome, and development itself has stalled. It's become a "room of interest". But even from this room, the "papashkas" are slowly migrating to SoD. And WT has long ceased to be considered the Top League; it's just a gathering of people who still sacredly believe in that. Thank you for the game, gentlemen WT players, but this is no longer the game you fell in love with at first sight back in 1999-2005...

- When I went to the VT website, I didn't understand anything at all. Yes, I'm lazy, and sometimes it's easier for me to click the red cross than to spend hours figuring out a bunch of symbols, but that doesn't change the fact that there's absolutely nothing written there about the differences from SOD. There are footnotes about changes in new patches, but that doesn't tell me anything.
- I have no idea how to install it, and there's nothing about it on the website either. There's a link to a 20MB VT version. Where should I put it? On Heroes? What will happen to my SOD version in that case? Will I be able to switch between versions, or will I have to install new Heroes for SOD afterwards? I don't want to test and check all of this, especially considering the opinions of many respected Heroes players about VT.
- Where can I find out what a GM overhaul is, how auctions work, what VT for SOD is, what full FT is, etc.? Maybe it's somewhere on the website, but it seems to be classified and locked in a safe, and the key to the safe is with the keeper of traditions, who no one has seen.
- If there was information, there would be interest, especially since VT is supposed to be so great. But since there's no information, people are watching Eurovision instead of opera.

The whole point isn't even related to the topic, VT or SOD; it's just the perspective of a "newbie," and I think there will be others like that.

By the way, I had a similar experience about a year and a half ago. I wanted to at least install it and see what it was, but I couldn't find a list of differences or the installation procedure. :rolleyes: And by the way, at that time, I often saw streams on the VT version, which is now quite rare. However, no one in those streams tried to explain anything. Now, reading this thread, I'm not even sure if it's worth getting into.

It's better to go with the option that will satisfy the largest number of potential participants. In this case, that's WT without experience, tax, bank, or classes.

The list of templates is the same as at SNG-13, maybe without sm-ka and mini-nosta (they are practically never played in WT). That is - Jebus Cross, Diamond, 8mm6a, 6lm10a, h3dm1. If the schedule slips, XL maps are removed from the pool (in Odessa, this was done in some rounds).

I'm afraid you're too late, and the last major one was SNG 2013; if there's no new surge, most of the SNG participants will already be soda players.
Back in Odessa, I heard from Mee about new WT innovations that interested me greatly, but it's almost been a year, and nothing has changed.

The templates will naturally also need to be adjusted, taking into account innovations and popularity.

I have never considered myself either a true soda player or a WT player; I've played both versions. And now, looking at it from the outside, I see no reasons that would interest me in WT, except for the mirror (and even that without the new cons/dragon fly hives).

@Lider1: The start is good, but from point 3 onwards it's mostly pure nonsense.

Added 9 minutes later
Vatya, Sanin and many others.
This only speaks to your laziness or unwillingness. On HeroesWorld in the main topics, by the way, there's a title like this: Heroes 3: World Tournament - addon for tournament games.
Go inside, and there are (in the first post!!!) links for downloading the manual and so on, as well as a link to the WT website, where there is also easily accessible information.

I thought and thought, and finally decided to write – personally, I’m going to this tournament fully aware that my chances of winning are 0.0. I’m going to chat with interesting people, people I’ve only communicated with before on ICQ, meet those I already know, drink vodka with them, sing along drunkenly with Lizard or another guitarist, lose N amount of money to Merlin in poker, and finally see what Minsk is like and what it has to offer, and so on. Yes, moving around the little horsemen is also a good thing, but if I agree with Vik’s suggestion, I’m afraid that, unfortunately, it will be limited to just that, or it will be like in Yekaterinburg, when out of all the paid breakfasts, I didn’t make it to a single one :D. In my opinion, tournaments like these should have different templates – templates for those who are seriously focused on competing, like lm, 8mm, mirrors, etc., and templates for such layabouts like me – like smki, and I’ll even say something controversial – something from m200, so that if two layabouts face each other, they can play for 3-4 hours and then go out together to drink and play poker, etc. Otherwise, it will be like in my game with Besha in Yekaterinburg – at first, you want to play, but after about 3 hours, the interest fades, and the suffering begins, when the result doesn’t matter to anyone except the judge. Maybe I’ve expressed it incoherently, but that’s how I think about it